Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and Oxalidaceae Week: Geraniaceae-Geranium lambertii from Kashmir-GS-20

[Gurcharan Singh]

Geranium lambertii Sweet, Geraniaceae. 4: t. 338. 1827.

Syn: Geranium grevilleanum Wall.

Perennial herb with thick short vertical rootstock; branches trailing or ascending, up to 50 cm tall; Leaves opposite, stipules broadly lanceolate, free, 8-13 mm long, upper narrower; leaf blade 5-angled, 5-7-lobed to about middle, 6-8 cm broad, with rhomboid-cuneate lobes, appressed-hairy; flowers pale pink, rose-coloured or white,25-35 mm across,in 2-flowered cluster on up to 16 cm long peduncle covered with spreading hairs; pedicel up to 5 cm long; sepals elliptic-ovate, 8-14 mm long, mucro 1.5-2 mm long; petals 15-22 mm long, hairy at base, tip rounded or depressed; filaments lanceolate, hairy outside, anthers black; mericarps smooth, beak ap to 3 cm long.

Photographed from Apharwat Kashmir. The leaves resemble G. wallichianum but stipules are much narrow and free and petals rose to white. 

--

Dr. Gurcharan Singh

Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/

[Prashant Awale]

Nice find. New to me. Thanks Gurcharan Singh ji for sharing.
Regards
Prashant

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[Nidhan Singh]

Thanks Sir for this new plant, perhaps the size of anthers and filaments also differentiates this from G. wallichianum..
--
Regards,

Dr. Nidhan Singh

Assistant Professor
Department of Botany
I.B. (PG) College
Panipat-132103 Haryana
Ph.: 09416371227

[chrischa...@btinternet.com]

I am uncertain what this is.  It does not match well my understanding of what G.lambertii is plus there are no records of this species for Kashmir.  Shall look into this further - there are several species of Geranium in Kashmir and bordering areas I am unfamiliar with.  This specimen from Aphawat could be one of these.  Plus there is the possibility of new species of this genus from this area - some new ones have been recognised in past decades.

I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make an additional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph.  Having images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identification and enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps you can help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science!

 

 

PHOTOGRAPHING GERANIUMS:

 

IF only the first one or two flowers have come out don't bother to collect as the form of inflorescence will not be evident.

The rootstock is important; get enough to show whether compact or creeping, or annual.  You can photograph the base of the plant which should provide this information.  Clearly, one requires permission from the authorities to uproot a plant.  There is still  a need and indeed role for the collection of pressed specimens for herbaria in India but that is primarily the domain of staff of botanic gardens/ institutions.
 
 In the early stages of flowering look out for the best-developed unripe fruits available.
 
 If fruit is ripe try to include both dehisced and undehisced states.
 
 If the fruits are falling with the seeds inside them, collect some (many geraniums disperse their seed explosively but some seed is often retained).
 
Include some loose petals when pressing (detach if necessary).  Expose stamens to show filament shape and hairs by taking 2 or 3 sepals off a flower from which petals have recently dropped.
 
Smoothing out one or two leaves and flowers as you close the press may be helpful; a few separately pressed basal and lower/middle stem leaves are often useful.
 
Wilted specimens can be very misleading.
 
Notes should be taken as to flower posture, colour and patterning of petals, colour of stigmas, anthers and distal parts of filaments (not necessary if your photos show these).
 
And don't forget to ensure the stipules are clearly shown - something that would have been obviously in pressed specimens, so not mentioned above by Yeo.

[Gurcharan Singh]

Same 2015 Paper

Distribution: India (Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim, Kashmir) Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet.

http://www.scitechnol.com/an-assessment-of-diversity-of-genus-geranium-lgeraniaceae-in-india-with-special-emphasis-on-indian-himalayan-region-zkyo.pdf

Dr. Gurcharan Singh

Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/

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[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Chadwell ji

--

[Gurcharan Singh]

Distribution: India (Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim,

Kashmir) Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet.

Pl see paper on diversity Geranium published in 2015

Wagh et al., J Biodivers Manage Forestry 2015, 4:2

http://dx.doi.org/10.4172/2327-417.1000140

Dr. Gurcharan Singh

Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 5:13 PM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Chadwell ji

[C CHADWELL]

Dear Dr Singh

Thanks for drawing my attention to this.  However, in light of Geranium lambertii not being known from Kashmir by Stewart (or indeed

NW of Kumaon at that time) and Nasir being sceptical about single collection reported in Swat (Pakistan) - he had not seen the specimen to

comment further, caution/uncertainty about provisional identifications of this species from a small number of photos only (not showing full characteristics) seems reasonable to me.

As for the paper 'An Assessment of Diversity Geranium.... in India with Special Emphasis on Indian Himalayan Region' (2015), the authors themselves, who with all due respect are not specialists in the genus and relied solely on what literature was available to them.  They personally

are unlikely to have much familiarity with the genus in the wild, many herbaria or cultivation.  They did not consult Peter Yeo (thought as he passed away some years back that was not possible but it is highly unlikely that they would have done so, even if he had still been alive). It is fair to say that it has been to the disadvantage of Indian botany that contact and collaboration with Western botanists (or Japanese ones - who have done a lot of worthwhile joint projects in Nepal) and plant specialists has been discouraged at a senior level for decades,

Returning to the authors of the 'Assessment', they correctly state in the 'Conclusions' that there is much confusion in identification especially of perennial forms which are often considered difficult of discrimination.  They emphasise that the genus needs a revisionary study to comprehensively explore the genus in India and to review existing collection of the herbaria in light of current taxonomic researches.  The present study is a prelude for further investigation on Indian Geranium.

I note e.g. their first entry of Geranium clarkei named by Yeo (not known to Stewart or Nasir) yet they give no synoymns or indicate which species in Kashmir, G.clarkei was previously understood to be.

Yes, they give in a rather odd sequence of distribution of this species: Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim then Kashmir (within Indian territory) for Geranium lambertii yet on what basis, given it was not previously known in Kashmir or HP?  Where are the herbarium specimens which have been determined as this species?  Surely, when it is claimed that a species has been found in a region it was not known from before, strong evidence is required to support the claim.

Otherwise, how can such extensions to ranges be checked?   I have just posted a set of images of what I consider to be Geranium lambertii in cultivation on eFI.  This allows others to inspect them (if they disagree, they can say why) and comment enabling a meaningful comparison with specimens from Kashmir, HP and Uttarakhand considered to be this species.

Too often, identifications of Himalayan flora are based upon comparison between scrappy newly (i.e. in the past few decades) gathered pressed specimens (with few, if any field notes  - at time no voucher specimens at all) with often scrappy, poorly pressed, badly preserved, 19th Century reference specimens or by 'matching' with brief guides such as 'Flowers of the Himalaya' (this is not a Flora and covers only a fraction of the total flora of the region) which has at best, single small images and summarised descriptions.   Quickly 'matching' with such guides alone is not a reliable method of plant identification and whilst can result in reliable identifications for distinctive species but often misidentifications.   I find that most Westerners visiting the Himalaya and Indian botanists use 'Flowers of the Himalaya' poorly.  Few seem to have actually read the written descriptions nor checked altitudinal nor geographic distributions to see if their highly provisional identification tallies - if not, it should be checked further....... 

I hope, if an Indian botanist undertakes a revisionary study of Geranium they do not rely too heavily on just herbarium specimens (many of which were collected in the 19th century) in Indian herbaria.  Extensive field-work needs to be undertaken and greater collaboration with foreign botanists, especially if specialists in the genera being studied exist and plant enthusiasts/horticulturalists and specialist gardeners along with specialist horticultural societies in the West. For genera which have ornamental merit there may well be expertise about them in cultivation in the West such was the case for Peter Yeo at Cambridge University.  As far as I know he seldom (if ever) visited the Himalaya himself (though corresponded with others, like myself, who had) so his prime source of information were plants in cultivation (along with pressed specimens in UK and European herbaria he inspected).   I know of expertise (and publications) on quite a number of genera well-represented in the Himalaya - though some of the experts have now passed away.  I realise, as with professional botanists, not everyone is willing to help but for those who were, it is such a pity that their expertise was not put to good use by Indian botanists in the past.

I remain doubtful that the geraniums named as G.lambertii from Kashmir are this species.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>
To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Cc: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016, 4:55
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257156] Re: Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and Oxalidaceae Week: Geraniaceae-Geranium lambertii from Kashmir-GS-20

Distribution: India (Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim,

Kashmir) Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet.

Pl see paper on diversity Geranium published in 2015

Wagh et al., J Biodivers Manage Forestry 2015, 4:2

http://dx.doi.org/10.4172/2327-417.1000140

Dr. Gurcharan Singh

Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 5:13 PM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Chadwell ji

[C CHADWELL]

See my recent comment re: this assessment. 

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>

To: "chrischa...@btinternet.com" <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2016, 20:53

Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257156] Re: Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and Oxalidaceae Week: Geraniaceae-Geranium lambertii from Kashmir-GS-20

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com / 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg 45/

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[C CHADWELL]

See my recent comment re: this assessment.  

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>
To: "chrischa...@btinternet.com" <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2016, 20:53

Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257162] Re: Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and Oxalidaceae Week: Geraniaceae-Geranium lambertii from Kashmir-GS-20

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com / 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg 45/

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[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Chadwell ji

On 22 Nov 2016 7:22 pm, "C CHADWELL" <chrischa...@btinternet.com> wrote:

Dear Dr Singh

Thanks for drawing my attention to this.  However, in light of Geranium lambertii not being known from Kashmir by Stewart (or indeed

NW of Kumaon at that time) and Nasir being sceptical about single collection reported in Swat (Pakistan) - he had not seen the specimen to

comment further, caution/uncertainty about provisional identifications of this species from a small number of photos only (not showing full characteristics) seems reasonable to me.

As for the paper 'An Assessment of Diversity Geranium.... in India with Special Emphasis on Indian Himalayan Region' (2015), the authors themselves, who with all due respect are not specialists in the genus and relied solely on what literature was available to them.  They personally

are unlikely to have much familiarity with the genus in the wild, many herbaria or cultivation.  They did not consult Peter Yeo (thought as he passed away some years back that was not possible but it is highly unlikely that they would have done so, even if he had still been alive). It is fair to say that it has been to the disadvantage of Indian botany that contact and collaboration with Western botanists (or Japanese ones - who have done a lot of worthwhile joint projects in Nepal) and plant specialists has been discouraged at a senior level for decades,

Returning to the authors of the 'Assessment', they correctly state in the 'Conclusions' that there is much confusion in identification especially of perennial forms which are often considered difficult of discrimination.  They emphasise that the genus needs a revisionary study to comprehensively explore the genus in India and to review existing collection of the herbaria in light of current taxonomic researches.  The present study is a prelude for further investigation on Indian Geranium.

I note e.g. their first entry of Geranium clarkei named by Yeo (not known to Stewart or Nasir) yet they give no synoymns or indicate which species in Kashmir, G.clarkei was previously understood to be.

Yes, they give in a rather odd sequence of distribution of this species: Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim then Kashmir (within Indian territory) for Geranium lambertii yet on what basis, given it was not previously known in Kashmir or HP?  Where are the herbarium specimens which have been determined as this species?  Surely, when it is claimed that a species has been found in a region it was not known from before, strong evidence is required to support the claim.

Otherwise, how can such extensions to ranges be checked?   I have just posted a set of images of what I consider to be Geranium lambertii in cultivation on eFI.  This allows others to inspect them (if they disagree, they can say why) and comment enabling a meaningful comparison with specimens from Kashmir, HP and Uttarakhand considered to be this species.

Too often, identifications of Himalayan flora are based upon comparison between scrappy newly (i.e. in the past few decades) gathered pressed specimens (with few, if any field notes  - at time no voucher specimens at all) with often scrappy, poorly pressed, badly preserved, 19th Century reference specimens or by 'matching' with brief guides such as 'Flowers of the Himalaya' (this is not a Flora and covers only a fraction of the total flora of the region) which has at best, single small images and summarised descriptions.   Quickly 'matching' with such guides alone is not a reliable method of plant identification and whilst can result in reliable identifications for distinctive species but often misidentifications.   I find that most Westerners visiting the Himalaya and Indian botanists use 'Flowers of the Himalaya' poorly.  Few seem to have actually read the written descriptions nor checked altitudinal nor geographic distributions to see if their highly provisional identification tallies - if not, it should be checked further....... 

I hope, if an Indian botanist undertakes a revisionary study of Geranium they do not rely too heavily on just herbarium specimens (many of which were collected in the 19th century) in Indian herbaria.  Extensive field-work needs to be undertaken and greater collaboration with foreign botanists, especially if specialists in the genera being studied exist and plant enthusiasts/horticulturalists and specialist gardeners along with specialist horticultural societies in the West. For genera which have ornamental merit there may well be expertise about them in cultivation in the West such was the case for Peter Yeo at Cambridge University.  As far as I know he seldom (if ever) visited the Himalaya himself (though corresponded with others, like myself, who had) so his prime source of information were plants in cultivation (along with pressed specimens in UK and European herbaria he inspected).   I know of expertise (and publications) on quite a number of genera well-represented in the Himalaya - though some of the experts have now passed away.  I realise, as with professional botanists, not everyone is willing to help but for those who were, it is such a pity that their expertise was not put to good use by Indian botanists in the past.

I remain doubtful that the geraniums named as G.lambertii from Kashmir are this species.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>
To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>

Cc: C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>; efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>

[Gurcharan Singh]

Garg ji

I think we should treat G. lambertii page as normal page and not ?

Regarding my upload there should be no doubt 

eFlora of China gives [Bhutan, N India, Kashmir, Nepal, Pakistan]. as Distribution

Paper cited by me Wagh et al. 2015 cite distribution as India (Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim, Kashmir) Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet.

Flora of Jammu & Kashmir published by BSI, 2002 cites specimen from Kashmir Baltal (same altitude as Apharwat) by Gammie

Blatter, 1927,  features this species in Beautiful Flowers of Kashmir page 66

Sharma & Jamwal List this species in Flora of Upper Lidder Valley, 1988.

On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 8:35:27 PM UTC+5:30, JM Garg wrote:

Thanks, Chadwell ji