Geranium pratense from Kashmir

76 views
Skip to first unread message

Gurcharan Singh

unread,
Nov 21, 2012, 7:11:55 PM11/21/12
to efloraofindia
Geranium pratense L., Sp. Pl. 2: 681. 1753.

A species very similar in appearance to G. wallichianum but very easily differentiated by very narrow linear stipules, 5-7 lobed leaves more deeply divided, each segment narrower, narrowest towards tip and gradually broader towards base with 6-13 acutish lobes, and narrowed suddenly below the lowest pairs of lobes. the species is now considerd closer to G. himalense but latter has smaller leaves, broader segments with lobes concentrated in upper with 5-7 lobes, mostly lobed again.
Flora of Pakistan considers Himalayan form as subsp. stewartianum, but this taxon is not accepted in light of variation within the species.
Photographed from Gulmarg, kashmir. 

--
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
Geranium-pratense-Gulmarg-DSC01846-Kashmir-3.jpg
Geranium-pratense-Gulmarg-DSC01848-Kashmir-2.jpg
Geranium-pratense-Gulmarg-DSC01851-Kashmir-1.jpg
Geranium-pratense-Gulmarg-DSC01852-Kashmir-4.jpg

Nidhan Singh

unread,
Nov 21, 2012, 7:13:54 PM11/21/12
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Thanks Sir for very beautiful pics...
--
Regards,

Dr. Nidhan Singh
Assisstant Professor
Department of Botany
I.B. (PG) College
Panipat-132103 Haryana
Ph.: 09416371227

Prashant Awale

unread,
Nov 22, 2012, 10:57:03 AM11/22/12
to Nidhan Singh, Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Nice set of photographs. Thanks Gurcharan Singh ji for sharing.
Regards
Prashant

--
 
 
 

chrischa...@btinternet.com

unread,
Nov 19, 2016, 8:50:56 AM11/19/16
to efloraofindia
I currently cannot put a firm name on this - shall comment further in due course. I do consider it is part of the G.collinum-pratense-himalayense
alliance (see below) but definitely not with what I understand to be G.himalayense from Ladakh. 

 

I do have some images of Geranium pratense taken in the UK earlier this year which it might be worthwhile me posting for comparison purposes - accepting that Nasir recognised subspecies stewartianum.

 

Let me try to explain.  In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayense alliance.  He considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice given below is followed).  This alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never blackish-purple...

 


I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make an additional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph.  Having images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identification and enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps you can help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science!

 

 

PHOTOGRAPHING GERANIUMS:

 

IF only the first one or two flowers have come out don't bother to collect as the form of inflorescence will not be evident.


The rootstock is important; get enough to show whether compact or creeping, or annual.  You can photograph the base of the plant which should provide this information.  Clearly, one requires permission from the authorities to uproot a plant.  There is still  a need and indeed role for the collection of pressed specimens for herbaria in India but that is primarily the domain of staff of botanic gardens/ institutions.
 
 In the early stages of flowering look out for the best-developed unripe fruits available.
 
 If fruit is ripe try to include both dehisced and undehisced states.
 
 If the fruits are falling with the seeds inside them, collect some (many geraniums disperse their seed explosively but some seed is often retained).
 
Include some loose petals when pressing (detach if necessary).  Expose stamens to show filament shape and hairs by taking 2 or 3 sepals off a flower from which petals have recently dropped.
 
Smoothing out one or two leaves and flowers as you close the press may be helpful; a few separately pressed basal and lower/middle stem leaves are often useful.
 
Wilted specimens can be very misleading.
 
Notes should be taken as to flower posture, colour and patterning of petals, colour of stigmas, anthers and distal parts of filaments (not necessary if your photos show these).
 
And don't forget to ensure the stipules are clearly shown - something that would have been obviously in pressed specimens, so not mentioned above by Yeo.

J.M. Garg

unread,
Nov 21, 2016, 8:34:19 PM11/21/16
to chrischa...@btinternet.com, efloraofindia, Gurcharan Singh

Thanks, Chadwell ji


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to indian...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Gurcharan Singh

unread,
Nov 21, 2016, 11:49:35 PM11/21/16
to J.M. Garg, C CHADWELL, efloraofindia
Dear Dr Chadwell. I have photographed this species well in Kashmir. Do let me know if you want any enlarged portion for clear understanding.

Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 5:34 PM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Chadwell ji

C CHADWELL

unread,
Nov 22, 2016, 8:26:14 AM11/22/16
to Gurcharan Singh, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Dear Dr Singh

I have slept some and surfaced sufficiently to start thinking more clearly again.  I have not
seen a copy of the description of Geranium clarkei nor have a copy of his book on Hardy Geraniums
(the reason he had 'Hardy' in the title is that because in the UK gardeners often include non-hardy
Pelargoniums, which interestingly often appear in window boxes in front of Swiss chalets but presumably,
as in my country are brought inside to over-winter in a frost-free place, as well as true Geraniums).

There is a Hardy Geranium Group of the UK Hardy Plant Society - I have lectured at their AGM on two occasions
about Himalayan geraniums.

Would be most useful if anyone who has a copy (or access to one) of Yeo's description of Geranium clarkei could sent
me a copy.  This seems to have been published in 'Hardy Geraniums' (1985).

Meanwhile, see: http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000729513 which is the Holotype collected
by Clarke in Kashmir at 'Harpoor' 2400m. I note Yeo had previously determined this as Geranium pratense 'Kashmir Form' -
was this the same as Geranium pratense susbp. stewartianum?

And what you have been calling Geranium pratense in Kashmir?

I note that the 'Assessment of Geranium Diversity...' you sent a link to includes G.clarkei but provides no synoyms.  It includes
Geranium himalayaense with G.pratense sensu FBI as a synonym but not G,pratense.

I have some images of what is now known in cultivation as G.clarkei 'Kashmir White' which I can find and post plus a form of G,pratense
growing wild in the UK, which I shall also post for comparison purposes.

Also took images of what I understand to be G.himalayense, growing in the garden here, still in flower (just) which I photographed at the same time as the images I posted yesterday of Geranium wallichianum.  In the latter case, I can post a dozen or so images, showing the range of characteristics, which will be helpful. 

In the mean-time, I draw your attention to cultivated forms of G.clarkei 'Kashmir white' (bearing in mind that not all images on the internet of this cultivar, other cultivated varieties belonging to all genera and species of all genera are correctly identified, indeed many are not and geraniums are prone to hybridise, which complicates matters further and this happens not just accidentally due to bees but actively due to gardeners deliberately crossing them):  https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Geranium+clarkei%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=ssl&imgrc=4e_uKDlz4p_VKM%3A ;

these look OK to me.






There is also








 




Best Wishes,


Chris Chadwell


81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk






From: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>
To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Cc: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016, 4:49
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257121] Re: Geranium pratense from Kashmir

Dear Dr Chadwell. I have photographed this species well in Kashmir. Do let me know if you want any enlarged portion for clear understanding.

Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 5:34 PM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks, Chadwell ji

I currently cannot put a firm name on this - shall comment further in due course. I do consider it is part of the G.collinum-pratense-himalayens e
alliance (see below) but definitely not with what I understand to be G.himalayense from Ladakh. 
 
I do have some images of Geranium pratense taken in the UK earlier this year which it might be worthwhile me posting for comparison purposes - accepting that Nasir recognised subspecies stewartianum.
 
Let me try to explain.  In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayens e alliance.  He considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice given below is followed).  This alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never blackish-purple...

C CHADWELL

unread,
Nov 22, 2016, 8:29:59 AM11/22/16
to Gurcharan Singh, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Dear Dr Singh

I have not seen a copy of the description of Geranium clarkei nor have a copy of his book on Hardy Geraniums
(the reason he had 'Hardy' in the title is that because in the UK gardeners often include non-hardy
Pelargoniums, which interestingly often appear in window boxes in front of Swiss chalets but presumably,
as in my country are brought inside to over-winter in a frost-free place, as well as true Geraniums).

There is a Hardy Geranium Group of the UK Hardy Plant Society - I have lectured at their AGM on two occasions
about Himalayan geraniums.

Would be most useful if anyone who has a copy (or access to one) of Yeo's description of Geranium clarkei could sent
me a copy.  This seems to have been published in 'Hardy Geraniums' (1985).

Meanwhile, see: http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000729513 which is the Holotype collected
by Clarke in Kashmir at 'Harpoor' 2400m. I note Yeo had previously determined this as Geranium pratense 'Kashmir Form' -
was this the same as Geranium pratense susbp. stewartianum?

And what you understood to be Geranium pratense in Kashmir?

I note that the 'Assessment of Geranium Diversity...' you sent a link to includes G.clarkei but provides no synoyms.  It includes
Geranium himalayaense with G.pratense sensu FBI as a synonym but not G,pratense.

I have some images of what is now known in cultivation as G.clarkei 'Kashmir White' which I can find and post plus a form of G,pratense
growing wild in the UK, which I shall also post for comparison purposes.

Also took images of what I understand to be G.himalayense, growing in the garden here, still in flower (just) which I photographed at the same time as the images I posted yesterday of Geranium wallichianum.  In the latter case, I can post a dozen or so images, showing the range of characteristics, which will be helpful. 

In the mean-time, I draw your attention to cultivated forms of G.clarkei 'Kashmir white' (bearing in mind that not all images on the internet of this cultivar, other cultivated varieties belonging to all genera and species of all genera are correctly identified, indeed many are not and geraniums are prone to hybridise, which complicates matters further and this happens not just accidentally due to bees but actively due to gardeners deliberately crossing them):  https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Geranium+clarkei%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=ssl&imgrc=4e_uKDlz4p_VKM%3A ;

these look OK to me.

 

Best Wishes,


Chris Chadwell


81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk




From: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>
To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Cc: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016, 4:49
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257121] Re: Geranium pratense from Kashmir
Dear Dr Chadwell. I have photographed this species well in Kashmir. Do let me know if you want any enlarged portion for clear understanding.

Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 5:34 PM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks, Chadwell ji

I currently cannot put a firm name on this - shall comment further in due course. I do consider it is part of the G.collinum-pratense-himalayens e
alliance (see below) but definitely not with what I understand to be G.himalayense from Ladakh. 
 
I do have some images of Geranium pratense taken in the UK earlier this year which it might be worthwhile me posting for comparison purposes - accepting that Nasir recognised subspecies stewartianum.
 
Let me try to explain.  In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayens e alliance.  He considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice given below is followed).  This alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never blackish-purple...
 

I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make an additional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph.  Having images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identification and enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps you can help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science!
 
 
PHOTOGRAPHING GERANIUMS:
 
IF only the first one or two flowers have come out don't bother to collect as the form of inflorescence will not be evident.

The rootstock is important; get enough to show whether compact or creeping, or annual.  You can photograph the base of the plant which should provide this information.  Clearly, one requires permission from the authorities to uproot a plant.  There is still  a need and indeed role for the collection of pressed specimens for herbaria in India but that is primarily the domain of staff of botanic gardens/ institutions.
 
 In the early stages of flowering look out for the best-developed unripe fruits available.
 
 If fruit is ripe try to include both dehisced and undehisced states.
 
 If the fruits are falling with the seeds inside them, collect some (many geraniums disperse their seed explosively but some seed is often retained).
 
Include some loose petals when pressing (detach if necessary).  Expose stamens to show filament shape and hairs by taking 2 or 3 sepals off a flower from which petals have recently dropped.
 
Smoothing out one or two leaves and flowers as you close the press may be helpful; a few separately pressed basal and lower/middle stem leaves are often useful.
 
Wilted specimens can be very misleading.
 
Notes should be taken as to flower posture, colour and patterning of petals, colour of stigmas, anthers and distal parts of filaments (not necessary if your photos show these).
 
And don't forget to ensure the stipules are clearly shown - something that would have been obviously in pressed specimens, so not mentioned above by Yeo.


On Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 12:11:55 AM UTC, Gurcharan Singh wrote:
Geranium pratense L., Sp. Pl. 2: 681. 1753.

A species very similar in appearance to G. wallichianum but very easily differentiated by very narrow linear stipules, 5-7 lobed leaves more deeply divided, each segment narrower, narrowest towards tip and gradually broader towards base with 6-13 acutish lobes, and narrowed suddenly below the lowest pairs of lobes. the species is now considerd closer to G. himalense but latter has smaller leaves, broader segments with lobes concentrated in upper with 5-7 lobes, mostly lobed again.
Flora of Pakistan considers Himalayan form as subsp. stewartianum, but this taxon is not accepted in light of variation within the species.
Photographed from Gulmarg, kashmir. 

--
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

C CHADWELL

unread,
Nov 22, 2016, 8:30:35 AM11/22/16
to Gurcharan Singh, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257416] Re: Geranium pratense from Kashmir

Dear Dr Chadwell. I have photographed this species well in Kashmir. Do let me know if you want any enlarged portion for clear understanding.

Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 5:34 PM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks, Chadwell ji

I currently cannot put a firm name on this - shall comment further in due course. I do consider it is part of the G.collinum-pratense-himalayens e
alliance (see below) but definitely not with what I understand to be G.himalayense from Ladakh. 
 
I do have some images of Geranium pratense taken in the UK earlier this year which it might be worthwhile me posting for comparison purposes - accepting that Nasir recognised subspecies stewartianum.
 
Let me try to explain.  In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayens e alliance.  He considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice given below is followed).  This alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never blackish-purple...
 

I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make an additional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph.  Having images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identification and enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps you can help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science!
 
 
PHOTOGRAPHING GERANIUMS:
 
IF only the first one or two flowers have come out don't bother to collect as the form of inflorescence will not be evident.

The rootstock is important; get enough to show whether compact or creeping, or annual.  You can photograph the base of the plant which should provide this information.  Clearly, one requires permission from the authorities to uproot a plant.  There is still  a need and indeed role for the collection of pressed specimens for herbaria in India but that is primarily the domain of staff of botanic gardens/ institutions.
 
 In the early stages of flowering look out for the best-developed unripe fruits available.
 
 If fruit is ripe try to include both dehisced and undehisced states.
 
 If the fruits are falling with the seeds inside them, collect some (many geraniums disperse their seed explosively but some seed is often retained).
 
Include some loose petals when pressing (detach if necessary).  Expose stamens to show filament shape and hairs by taking 2 or 3 sepals off a flower from which petals have recently dropped.
 
Smoothing out one or two leaves and flowers as you close the press may be helpful; a few separately pressed basal and lower/middle stem leaves are often useful.
 
Wilted specimens can be very misleading.
 
Notes should be taken as to flower posture, colour and patterning of petals, colour of stigmas, anthers and distal parts of filaments (not necessary if your photos show these).
 
And don't forget to ensure the stipules are clearly shown - something that would have been obviously in pressed specimens, so not mentioned above by Yeo.


On Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 12:11:55 AM UTC, Gurcharan Singh wrote:
Geranium pratense L., Sp. Pl. 2: 681. 1753.

A species very similar in appearance to G. wallichianum but very easily differentiated by very narrow linear stipules, 5-7 lobed leaves more deeply divided, each segment narrower, narrowest towards tip and gradually broader towards base with 6-13 acutish lobes, and narrowed suddenly below the lowest pairs of lobes. the species is now considerd closer to G. himalense but latter has smaller leaves, broader segments with lobes concentrated in upper with 5-7 lobes, mostly lobed again.
Flora of Pakistan considers Himalayan form as subsp. stewartianum, but this taxon is not accepted in light of variation within the species.
Photographed from Gulmarg, kashmir. 

--
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to indian...@googlegroups.com .
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/smqM32wWMbo/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to indiantreepi...@googlegroups.com.

J.M. Garg

unread,
Nov 22, 2016, 9:16:04 AM11/22/16
to C CHADWELL, efloraofindia, Gurcharan Singh

Thanks, Chadwell ji


Gurcharan Singh

unread,
Dec 6, 2016, 7:40:16 PM12/6/16
to J.M. Garg, C CHADWELL, efloraofindia
Perhaps it may be too early to make general statement because eFlora of India, updated 2014 records both G. pratense (NW Himalayas, Pakistan, Nepal at altitude 3000-4500 m) and G. clakei (Endemic to Kashmir, 2100-4200 m), with well defined key and clear illustration of G. pretense with condensed flowers on short pedicels:

Agreed that most of my specimens may fit G. clarkei with pedicels clearly longer than calyx, immature fruits slightly nodding and flowers up to 48 mm across. We have to scrutinize all Himalayan specimens from NW Himalayas with compact infl. with pedicels shorter than calyx, slightly smaller up to 45 mm across flowers and reflexed immature fruits to fit into G. pratense.
   At this stage it would be too early to discard G. kashmirianum, especially when both The Plant List and GRIN regard it as accepted name. I am trying to procure the original publication to decide and comment on distinguishing characters especially G. pratense. G. clarkei was published only one year earlier so authors may not have known about it when they sent their manuscript for publication.
    Since inception of this group we have been correcting identifications based on reasoning and evidence. Let us avoid sweeping remarks about species which we have not seen. We will have ample time to make considered conclusions then. Till then let us follow the established databases.   

Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 6:16 AM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Chadwell ji


Gurcharan Singh

unread,
Dec 9, 2016, 1:57:32 PM12/9/16
to C CHADWELL, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
I have been able to procure Image of holotype as well as original publication of G. kashmirianum. An interesting observation in publication sent in Dec. 1984, authors had thanked Prof. Yeo for going through the specimens and seems gave go ahead as new species, before he published his own G. clarkei in 1985.
    I have ordered Hardy Geraniums by Dr. Yeo. It will reach me in a week, enabling me to comment conclusively. In the meantime if we have only one Geranium from G. pratense complex (leaving aside G. himalayanum) in Kashmir, what was need for new names, why not upgrade G. pratense subsp. stewartianum (already published) to species level. Perhaps I will have answer from Yeo's Book.

Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

J.M. Garg

unread,
Dec 21, 2016, 1:10:00 AM12/21/16
to efloraofindia, C CHADWELL, Gurcharan Singh
The next thing I did was to procured description and holotype of G. kashmirianum, and immediately ordered a copy Hardy Geraniums by Yeo, which arrived today and I was relieved with what I found in the book:

Both G. pratense and G. clarkei occur in Kashmir separable by characters enumerated in eFl of India and enumerated by me above. The Kashmir form of G. pratense is Gernanium pratense var. stewartianum (G. Pratense subsp. stewartianum in eFl Pak).

There is an interesting Multiaccess key in the book according to which G. pratense and G. clarkei differ in rostrum with stylar portion less than 4 mm in former and more than 4 mm in latter

The key also has var. stewartianum placed nearer to G. clarkei in that Floral axis is is above the horizontal (flowers upwardly inclined or erect) in both, whereas in true var. pratense floral axis is horizontal or below horizontal (flowers directed horizontally or nodding. And these two Paragraphs should clinch all issues

Chadwell No. 31 from Sonamarg represents this variety (var. stewartiana) 

I received three samples of seed of this from S K Raina in 1981 an 1982. all the plants raised were distiguishable in leaf size, flower colour and subtle variations in leaf segments 

Since he raised plants in cultivation he named the plant sent by S K Raina as Geranium pratense 'Raina'. Sapru and Raina while publishing the species G. kashmirianum have clearly mentioned that they had sent specimens to Dr. Yeo for scrutiny.  This is a good pointer for new researchers. Since the plant grows wild in Gulmarg and above, following Yeo, it could be proposed as new forma (with of course proper epithet following the Code).

I have just got the book. Perhaps it will help me in helping with other specimens in our database, and of course the crucial job of sifting our G. pratense specimens into G. clarkei and G. pratense var. stewartiana, and cultivar (till some one proposes as forma (or some other rank)

Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
On 10 December 2016 at 00:27, Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have been able to procure Image of holotype as well as original publication of G. kashmirianum. An interesting observation in publication sent in Dec. 1984, authors had thanked Prof. Yeo for going through the specimens and seems gave go ahead as new species, before he published his own G. clarkei in 1985.
    I have ordered Hardy Geraniums by Dr. Yeo. It will reach me in a week, enabling me to comment conclusively. In the meantime if we have only one Geranium from G. pratense complex (leaving aside G. himalayanum) in Kashmir, what was need for new names, why not upgrade G. pratense subsp. stewartianum (already published) to species level. Perhaps I will have answer from Yeo's Book.

Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to indian...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
With regards,
J.M.Garg

'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'

Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia. 

For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia website (with a species database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images).

The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.

Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'.

Gurcharan Singh

unread,
Oct 1, 2021, 12:18:03 PM10/1/21
to efloraofindia
After further scrutiny of my other photographs from Gulmarg I have come to conclusion that this plant is G. clarkei Yeo (syn: G. kashmirianum Sapru and Raina) differing from G. pratense var. stewartianum  in narrower leaf segments (Sapru and Raina; see also image B of G. pratense var. stewartiana in eFlora of Pakistan). Yeo also differentiates G. clarkei by young fruits being horizontal or drooping (young fruit upwardly inclined or erect in G. pratense var. stewartiana), and larger flowers with pink veins.
Here are more photographs from Gulmarg.

Cc: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to indiantreepi...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to indian...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to indiantreepi...@googlegroups.com.
Geranium-kashmirianum-Geranium-pratense-Gulmarg-DSC02721.jpg
Geranium-kashmirianum-Geranium-pratense-Gulmarg-DSC01845.jpg
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages