'Pseudo-vivipary' in Oroxylum indicum

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Neil Soares

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Jul 29, 2010, 1:22:48 PM7/29/10
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Hi,
 Was at my farm at Shahapur over the weekend. Observed Oroxylum indicum [Tetu,Ullu] seeds germinating in their pods and also fallen seeds germinating on the vegetation below. Sending a few photographs.
                   With regards,
                     Neil Soares.

Oroxylum indicum,Tetu,Ullu flowers.jpg
Oroxylum indicum,Tetu,Ullu seeds germinating in their pods 1.jpg
Oroxylum indicum,Tetu,Ullu seeds germinating in their pods 2.jpg
Oroxylum indicum,Tetu,Ullu seeds germinating in their pods 3.jpg
Fallen seeds germinating below 1.jpg
Fallen seeds germinating below 2.jpg
Fallen seeds germinating below 3.jpg

tanay bose

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Jul 29, 2010, 2:15:48 PM7/29/10
to Neil Soares, indian...@googlegroups.com
Fascinating !! Never seen something like this in my life ever!!
Million thanks to you
tanay
--
Tanay Bose
+91(033) 25550676 (Resi)
9830439691(Mobile)


Dr Pankaj Kumar

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Jul 29, 2010, 3:43:34 PM7/29/10
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This is interesting Mr. Neil, but unfortunately this is not an ideal
condition. Can you suggest, why a seed would like to be blown away ?
Just out of curiosity....
Regards
Pankaj

R. Vijayasankar

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Jul 29, 2010, 8:56:51 PM7/29/10
to efloraofindia, Neil Soares
Hi Neil ji,
 
Its a fantastic shot. But, I guess from the pictures that the fruits belong to previous season, fallen from the infructescence and got stuck in the lower branch. There are two reasons for the guess: 1. the inflorescence is always single and terminal in this species, but the fruit hangs from a lower branch, and 2. new flowers of the current season are found at the top and no fruiting started yet.
 
Since the fruits are detached from the tree (due to some external force like heavy wind) before dehiscing completely, the seeds were not dispersed fully. So after the shower they started germinating within the (detached fruit). If this hypothesis is true, then it can not be called as vivipary (wherein germination of seeds occur when the fruits still remain attached to the mother plant, a genetic feature).
 
Please correct me if i am wrong.
  
With regards

Vijayasankar


shubhada nikharge

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Jul 29, 2010, 10:16:31 PM7/29/10
to Neil Soares, indian...@googlegroups.com
Hi Neil,
excellent pics. i had never seen this before. i have seen many saplings of Tetu growing near the main tree but never saw the seeds germinating in the pods.
u r so lucky to have such a wonderful farm near Mumbai.
Thanx again for sharing the rare sight.
Cheers,
Shubhada



"I am only one; but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; I will not refuse to do the something I can do."



From: Neil Soares <drneil...@yahoo.com>
To: indian...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 29 July, 2010 10:52:48 PM
Subject: [efloraofindia:42700] 'Pseudo-vivipary' in Oroxylum indicum

R. Vijayasankar

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Jul 29, 2010, 10:44:35 PM7/29/10
to shubhada nikharge, Neil Soares, indian...@googlegroups.com
oops...didn't recognize the word 'pseudo-vivipary' in the subject line...sorry. pl ignore my previous mail.

With regards

Vijayasankar


Gurcharan Singh

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Jul 29, 2010, 10:51:58 PM7/29/10
to R. Vijayasankar, shubhada nikharge, Neil Soares, indian...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for these interesting shots, Neil ji


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Neil Soares

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Jul 29, 2010, 11:24:18 PM7/29/10
to shubhada nikharge, R. Vijayasankar, indian...@googlegroups.com
Hi Dr.Vijayasankar,
     You are right - the the pods are of the previous season. Managed to find these photographs taken in May this year.
                       Regards,
                         Neil Soares.

--- On Fri, 7/30/10, R. Vijayasankar <vijay.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
Oroxylum indicum,Tetu,Ullu 1.jpg
Oroxylum indicum,Tetu,Ullu 2.jpg

Pinki

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Jul 30, 2010, 12:32:06 AM7/30/10
to efloraofindia
Thank you very much Neil ji for sharing such pictures. Being fortunate
to see such pictures, and i being a botanist i feel like having come
face to face with a celebrity idol....

Alok

On Jul 29, 8:24 pm, Neil Soares <drneilsoa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Dr.Vijayasankar,
>      You are right - the the pods are of the previous season. Managed to find these photographs taken in May this year.
>                        Regards,
>                          Neil Soares.
>
> --- On Fri, 7/30/10, R. Vijayasankar <vijay.botan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: R. Vijayasankar <vijay.botan...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:42711] 'Pseudo-vivipary' in Oroxylum indicum
> To: "shubhada nikharge" <shubhada_nikha...@yahoo.co.in>
> Cc: "Neil Soares" <drneilsoa...@yahoo.com>, indian...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Friday, July 30, 2010, 8:14 AM
>
> oops...didn't recognize the word 'pseudo-vivipary' in the subject line...sorry. pl ignore my previous mail.
>
> With regards
>
> Vijayasankar
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 9:16 PM, shubhada nikharge <shubhada_nikha...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>
> Hi Neil,
> excellent pics. i had never seen this before. i have seen many saplings of Tetu growing near the main tree but never saw the seeds germinating in the pods.
> u r so lucky to have such a wonderful farm near Mumbai.
>
> Thanx again for sharing the rare sight.
>
> Cheers,
> Shubhada
>
> "I am only one; but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; I will not refuse to do the something I can do."
>
> From: Neil Soares <drneilsoa...@yahoo.com>
> To: indian...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Thu, 29 July, 2010 10:52:48 PM
> Subject: [efloraofindia:42700] 'Pseudo-vivipary' in Oroxylum indicum
>
> Hi,
>  Was at my farm at Shahapur over the weekend. Observed Oroxylum indicum [Tetu,Ullu] seeds germinating in their pods and also fallen seeds germinating on the vegetation below. Sending a few photographs.
>                    With regards,
>                      Neil Soares.
>
>  Oroxylum indicum,Tetu,Ullu 1.jpg
> 151KViewDownload
>
>  Oroxylum indicum,Tetu,Ullu 2.jpg
> 223KViewDownload

Jayesh

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Jul 30, 2010, 12:44:41 AM7/30/10
to efloraofindia
Nice photos ............... TFS
>  Oroxylum indicum,Tetu,Ullu flowers.jpg
> 104KViewDownload
>
>  Oroxylum indicum,Tetu,Ullu seeds germinating in their pods 1.jpg
> 192KViewDownload
>
>  Oroxylum indicum,Tetu,Ullu seeds germinating in their pods 2.jpg
> 168KViewDownload
>
>  Oroxylum indicum,Tetu,Ullu seeds germinating in their pods 3.jpg
> 92KViewDownload
>
>  Fallen seeds germinating below 1.jpg
> 137KViewDownload
>
>  Fallen seeds germinating below 2.jpg
> 110KViewDownload
>
>  Fallen seeds germinating below 3.jpg
> 100KViewDownload

Kenneth Greby

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Jul 30, 2010, 2:01:12 AM7/30/10
to Neil Soares, indian...@googlegroups.com
Great pics, Neil. Is this typical for your locale, or is this a particularly wet season?

Ken.

Sent: Thu, July 29, 2010 10:22:48 AM

Subject: [efloraofindia:42700] 'Pseudo-vivipary' in Oroxylum indicum

Neil Soares

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Jul 30, 2010, 3:35:01 AM7/30/10
to indian...@googlegroups.com, Kenneth Greby
Hi Ken,
  The monsoon season in and around Bombay extends from June to September.
                         Regards,
                           Neil.

--- On Fri, 7/30/10, Kenneth Greby <fst...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dr. Arvind Kadus

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Jul 30, 2010, 9:10:23 AM7/30/10
to efloraofindia, Neil Soares
Hi,
Nice shots !
I have not seen the situation like this before.I think The Baby plants
also knowing the condition of the 'Earth', they are also trying to
conserve the nature and trying to come out early from the comb.
Apart from this, in Ayurveda Tentu or O.indicum is one of the contents
of 'Dashamoola' group & used in many Vata disorders. Roots are used,
thats why large exploitation is there. Need to cultivate in large
scale ( In situ as well as Ex situ.)
Thanx for the nice pictures.
Regards
Dr. Kadus Arvind.
Pune.

Pankaj Oudhia

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Jul 30, 2010, 9:37:33 AM7/30/10
to efloraofindia
Agreed with Arvind ji. In my state fruit is considered as snake repellent. This faith is becoming curse for this species. I have written Hindi article on this aspect. Here is link

साँपो के डर के कारण विलुप्त होती गरुड जडी और इसे बचाने की मुहिम

- पंकज अवधिया

http://pratikriyaa.blogspot.com/2009/07/blog-post_15.html


regards

Pankaj Oudhia

Pankaj Kumar

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Jul 30, 2010, 10:27:30 AM7/30/10
to Pankaj Oudhia, efloraofindia
I believe this is what we call the survival of the fittest. Most
probably the seedlings germinating on the other leaves or within the
fruit coat wont survive for long. The plant is usually adapted for
wind dispersal but it may happen due to abrupt rain.

Why would a seed like to be dispersed like that, i.e., away from the
mother plant:
The possible answer which I could think is JUST TO REDUCE COMPETITION
WITH THE MOTHER PLANT.

But indeed this is a nice observation. If possible please keep an eye
to check if the seedings can survive for long or if you wish to
conserve the species, then you can just collect the seedlings and
plant them at some distance from the mother plant. I dont know much
about you Mr. Neil, but just in case you are a researcher then you may
try to atleast publish this as a short note or wait for sometime to
check if they survive and then publish it. It will just need some
field observation from your side.
Regards
Pankaj

Vijayasankar

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Jul 30, 2010, 11:08:25 AM7/30/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Pankaj Oudhia, efloraofindia
Though O. indicum is distributed across India, it is sporadic by nature. You can't have a sizable population in one place. But we (FRLHT) have observed a large population only in Chhattisgarh, and proposed the site for in situ conservation.

With regards

Vijayasankar


Pankaj Kumar

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Jul 30, 2010, 12:59:40 PM7/30/10
to Vijayasankar, Pankaj Oudhia, efloraofindia
Thats nice Dr. Vijay. Infact we still dont know many things abt our
diversity and hence we should certainly try to save whatever we are
left with. Hope your conservation program worked!!
Keep it up.
Pankaj

Dr. Arvind Kadus

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Jul 30, 2010, 1:27:23 PM7/30/10
to efloraofindia
Dear all,
There are plenty of plants in Western Ghats. We had collected seeds
and tried to germinate. We germinated the seeds of O. indicum and
Stereospermum suaveolens i.e Patala. in my small nursary and planted
that plants where ever I got place. We distributed to some Nature
lover peoples also.
This is a need to conserve the rare species by cultivating them.
Regards,
Dr. Kadus Arvind Pune.

Pankaj Oudhia

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Jul 30, 2010, 2:30:07 PM7/30/10
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Thanks Vijayashankar ji. I have observed rich population in Orissa also. Old trees in dense forest are still safe as only Traditional Healers  are aware of its presence. They discuss less about it because of fear of "Wood mafia" as well as Greedy traders.

regards

Pankaj Oudhia

Vijayasankar

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Jul 30, 2010, 7:54:15 PM7/30/10
to Pankaj Oudhia, efloraofindia
As per the recent national level study "Demand and Supply of medicinal plants in India" conducted by FRLHT, Bangalore the annual trade/demand of roots of Oroxylum indicum reported to be 1000-2000 MT. Due to this unprecedented demand and over-exploitation, the wild populations (already they are slow growing and sporadic by nature) are facing serious threat of extinction. As the roots are used (it is an ingredient in Dasamula arishtam) the entire plants are uprooted and thus killed. This not only wipes the existing population, but stops the regeneration too.
 
This species has been assigned with various threat categories (following IUCN guidelines) ranging from Vulnerable to Endangered, for nine different states, through CAMP workshops conducted by FRLHT with collaboration of various stake holders such as the state forest depts., scientists, traders, local knowledgeable community etc. 
 
The good news is large scale cultivation has been initiated by forest dept. of Gujarat and perhaps few other states to meet the ever increasing demand for the species. And various state forest depts. (incl Orissa) have taken up conservation measures, following FRLHT's recommendations, to conserve the species in situ.

With regards

Vijayasankar


Pankaj Kumar

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Jul 30, 2010, 11:22:41 PM7/30/10
to Vijayasankar, Pankaj Oudhia, efloraofindia
Thanks a lot Dr. Vijay. Thats really hell of a demand. In jharkhand
some tribes call it asti-panjar.....can be translated into RIB BONES
on the basis of the structure of the fruits and it is of high demand
too. But never knew that it was so badly exploited. Infact this is a
very easy growing plant pollinated by Bats at night.

Pankaj Oudhia

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Jul 31, 2010, 1:24:36 AM7/31/10
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Thanks Vijayashanakr ji again. I was part of this workshop in IIFM, Bhopal.

Unfortunately very few ground level workers attended this workshop. Most of them were dependent on old reference materials for deciding the present status of plants. We were rememberibg the school days when one person was preparing the note and others were copying the same even word to word. Later your organisation published it as book and it came in recommendtation.

I felt that in such workshops participation of Traditional Healers and forest guards with scientists can make it really useful. One herb trader from Bhopal has attended this workshop. He was having immense knowledge about rare herbs but the format was in English.  He attended first day and then after seeing the heap of books he never visited again. No doubt FRLHT took good step but practical difficultiues were there. The format shoukld be in regional languages. The researchers from Raigarh were not aware of "Pantropical" like words and they kept the sheets half filled but in publsihed book full sheets were there.

Not aware how much money it took to organise this megaevent but today I feel that such information can be gathered in one tenth cost with reliable information and honorarium to participants with the help of EFLORAIndia like groups.

In that workshop Dr.Sahu from Sagar walked out from the venue on the issue of extracting valuable information from researchers without paying them an honorarium. When he returned back his supporters started filling wrong information which later gone in recommnedations.

But I felt fortunate to meet FRLHT experts like Dr. Ravi Kumar and Dr.Ved.

regards

Pankaj Oudhia 

Pankaj Kumar

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Jul 31, 2010, 1:31:08 AM7/31/10
to Pankaj Oudhia, efloraofindia
hehehhee...I think u r talking abt Dr. T.R.Sahu. I never knew he can
be so upset at anytime. Happened to meet him twice and he is a very
good taxonomist and so is his son Dr. Pankaj Sahu. I will request
Pankaj to be a part of this group if possible.
Another Pankaj.....!!!

Pankaj

Pankaj Oudhia

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Jul 31, 2010, 1:39:13 AM7/31/10
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Yes, you are right. I met him many times and fond of his work.

Just to add. I discussed about this event with the FRLHT head Dr.Darshan Shankar when I waswith him as Research Advisory Committee Member of National Innovation Foundation, Ahmedabad.

He was shocked and not aware of all these mishaps.

regards

Pankaj Oudhia

Vijayasankar

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Jul 31, 2010, 2:20:57 AM7/31/10
to Pankaj Oudhia, efloraofindia
Thanks for the response, Pankaj ji.
 
I am too small to comment about this. But since i have attented ten CAMP workshops conducted in various states across India, i can tell you that the response of participants in each state is different. In most of the states like Kerala, KA, TN, HP, North-eastern states, etc. the participation was quite serious with the focus to prioritize taxa for conservation in respective states. Not everybody understand the IUCN criteria and categories (best available and followed at global level today) quickly. It needs interest in the subject, dedication, cooperation, willingness to share the information for a nobel cause etc. etc. 
 
So far only one book published by FRLHT in this line, titled "Field guide to 100 Red Listed Medicinal Plants of conservation concern in southern India", in the year 2000. No other books published after that, on conservation aspect. So it is incorrect to say that Bhopal materials are published. They are just in report form. It is also not true what you mentioned about the data sheets. You very well know the procedure, the participants divided into groups and each group has experienced facilitator, active recorder and the informative participants. All the information were recorded by the members and if one is not knowing the botanical name or language, there will be always those experts who will translate and record properly. If someone don't know what is 'Pantropical' then he/she can not be a qualified botanist. For laymen, its not a problem at all, there are experts in the group and from FRLHT to explain and clarify and technical issues this regard.
 
FRLHT staff never involved in maneuvering the information but only to facilitate the workshop and to provide technical support. If the information on Taxon Data Sheet is very good, it means that the team was highly knowledgeable on the plants under discussion with vast field experience, and serious about what they were doing. It also shows the participants were open enough to share the information to bring out an appropriate outcome.
 
There will be always criticisms for good works. I am not surprised. But the sad thing is that sometimes even very knowledgeable experts do not understand the importance of the exercise and its rigourousness. It is not like a single author assigning threat status to plants by sitting in the computer within four walls. It is a serious science. The negative mindset about this has to be changed first, then only we can understand the process. When the process initiated by FRLHT in 1995, many had wrong opinion and opposition, but they all have now realized and changed their bad mindset after seeing the science of the process.
 
Whatever expressed above are my personal views and opinion only and do not reflect the views of FRLHT. If anyone wants to know more detail about this process, please write to the Director, FRLHT. (www.frlht.org)

With regards

Vijayasankar


Pankaj Oudhia

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Jul 31, 2010, 2:41:47 AM7/31/10
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Thanks for your comments Vijayashankar ji. Good defense.

I have said everything to Darshankar ji and closed the chapter but your mail reminded me about the same workshop again.


I am aware that FRLHT welcomes criticism. That's why I dare to say Darshan ji "FRLHT collects information from public's money (Funding) and then why it hides the information from common Indians. Why one has to pay for the information collected by your organisation?" Unexpectedly he welcomed this critcism.


Please invite him from my behalf to join this group. Also request Ravi Kumar ji to join.

I have written a lot on different aspects of Bhopal workshop in my online articles, so not repeating it here.

regards

Pankaj Oudhia
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