Blue Pimpernel ABAPR01/17

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Ashwini Bhatia

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Apr 14, 2015, 11:35:53 PM4/14/15
to efloraofindia
I saw these tiny blue flowers in the lower town where I had gone to partake in a local feast. I tried to photograph it on my phone but was unable to do so properly on account of the flower being too small for a clear picture. I collected a sample and hoped that it didn't wilt in the time it took me to reach home. It survived the journey and I made some photographs propping it up with a discarded cardboard box (hence the brown in the pictures). 

I was tickled on finding that it was called the Blue Pimpernel and was useful as a weather indicator due to its propensity to close before bad weather. I have not yet asked the local shepherds if they use this 'shepherd's weather-glass', but will do so soon. FOI website lists it (or a similar one) as Anagallis arvensis ssp. foemina. Alok Mahendroo ji's excellent nature blog says Anagallis arvensis var. coerulea. Wikipedia cautions not to confuse the blue variation of A. arvensis with A. foemina (or Lysimachia formina) as they are categorised as different species after DNA studies.

I do not have the key to differentiate the two. Please advise.

Blue Pimpernel
Dharamshala, HP
1500m approx.
13 April 2015

Thanks.
Ashwini

Ashwini Bhatia

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Apr 18, 2015, 11:56:19 AM4/18/15
to efloraofindia
I found a few more plants at Gaggal Airport and am sharing them here to confirm the ID if possible.

Gaggal Airport
1300m approx
18 April 2015

Thanks.
Ashwini


<_MG_0235_13April15.jpg>
<_MG_0234_13April15.jpg>
<_MG_0223_13April15.jpg>

J.M. Garg

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Apr 24, 2015, 4:44:28 AM4/24/15
to Ashwini Bhatia, efloraofindia
Pl. see Anagallis

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Ashwini Bhatia

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Apr 24, 2015, 8:22:17 AM4/24/15
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Thank you very much Dr Garg. I am attaching here more photos to go with the key. Please advise if my understanding is correct;


The first sample, petals are longer than sepals and petal edges are minutely hairy like a torn paper.

The second sample from a different location shows pedicel longer than leaves.


Petals are overlapping.


Can we conclude from this that the flower is A. arvensis var. caerulea?

Thanks and regards,
Ashwini


On 24-Apr-2015, at 5:24 pm, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Keys are available at Anagallis

On 24 April 2015 at 17:15, Ashwini Bhatia <ash...@ashwinibhatia.com> wrote:
Thank you Dr Garg. I am not sure if it is Anagallis arvensis ssp. foemina or Lysimachia formina. The following is from my original message on this thread;

"FOI website lists it (or a similar one) as Anagallis arvensis ssp. foemina. Alok Mahendroo ji's excellent nature blog says Anagallis arvensis var. coerulea. Wikipedia cautions not to confuse the blue variation of A. arvensis with A. foemina (or Lysimachia formina) as they are categorised as different species after DNA studies.

I do not have the key to differentiate the two. Please advise.”

Warm regards,
Ashwini

On 24-Apr-2015, at 2:14 pm, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Pl. see Anagallis

On 18 April 2015 at 21:25, Ashwini Bhatia <ash...@ashwinibhatia.com> wrote:
I found a few more plants at Gaggal Airport and am sharing them here to confirm the ID if possible.

Gaggal Airport
1300m approx
18 April 2015

Thanks.
Ashwini

<_MG_0265_18April15.jpg><_MG_0269_18April15.jpg>

J.M. Garg

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Apr 30, 2015, 7:18:04 AM4/30/15
to efloraofindia, Ashwini Bhatia
I think you should be right.

Ashwini Bhatia

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Apr 30, 2015, 9:18:50 AM4/30/15
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Thank you Dr Garg for confirming this.

Regards,
Ashwini

On 30-Apr-2015, at 4:47 pm, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think you should be right.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ashwini Bhatia <ash...@ashwinibhatia.com>
Date: 24 April 2015 at 17:51
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:221413] Re: Blue Pimpernel ABAPR01/17
To: "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com>
Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>


Thank you very much Dr Garg. I am attaching here more photos to go with the key. Please advise if my understanding is correct;


The first sample, petals are longer than sepals and petal edges are minutely hairy like a torn paper.
<_MG_0262_13April15.jpg>

The second sample from a different location shows pedicel longer than leaves.

<_MG_0272_18April15.jpg>

Petals are overlapping.
<_MG_0272c_18April15.jpg>

surajit koley

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Apr 30, 2015, 2:18:48 PM4/30/15
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Ashwini Bhatia
This is a tough question, to differentiate the two taxa (or is it one?), in spite of eFI having a clear demarcation.

Flower character, length of pedicels etc are often overlapping. While sites like http://keyserver.lucidcentral.org/weeds/data/03030800-0b07-490a-8d04-0605030c0f01/media/Html/Anagallis_arvensis.htm or http://flowers2.la.coocan.jp/Myrsinaceae/Anagallis%20arvensis.htm or http://hirc.botanic.hr/fcd/DetaljiFrame.aspx?IdVrste=941 think all is same some other sites like the following links think otherwise -
  1. http://www.floravascular.com/index.php?spp=Anagallis%20foemina
  2. http://www.floravascular.com/index.php?spp=Anagallis%20arvensis
I think number of seeds may help - 10 to 23 in foemina and 20 to 35 in arvensis (caerulea L.).


Since pedicels in the attached pics are longer than the subtending leaves, and I prefer to follow FoC it is likely to be A. arvensis L.

Thank you
Regards
surajit

Gurcharan Singh

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Apr 30, 2015, 9:44:49 PM4/30/15
to surajit koley, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Ashwini Bhatia
Ashwini ji
I have discussed this in detail in my earlier post. Yours is clearly A. arvensis subsp. caerulea.


Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

Ushadi Micromini

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Apr 30, 2015, 10:22:56 PM4/30/15
to surajit koley, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Ashwini Bhatia
"I think number of seeds may help - 10 to 23 in foemina and 20 to 35 in arvensis (caerulea L.)."
surajit that's from above, in your  answer...

my funny bone cant help it but ask...

if there are 24 seeds ... what would the poor botany-splitter/classifier do..
climb the walls?


usha di



On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 11:48 PM, surajit koley <surajitno...@gmail.com> wrote:



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Usha di
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Ashwini Bhatia

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Apr 30, 2015, 10:25:11 PM4/30/15
to surajit koley, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Gurcharan Singh
Thank you Surajit ji for this detailed search. Indeed, it is difficult to tell from the pictures. I think we all seem to agree that my sample was Anagallis arvensis and not A. foemina (which was the major question to begin with). 

Looking at Dr Gurcharan Singh’s clear keys on efi, I concluded that we had A. arvensis subsp. caerulea. Are we now seeing that the subsp. part may not be correct and that it should be Anagallis arvensis L.? I am assuming L stands for Latifolia here.

If both A. arvensis subsp. caerulea and A. arvensis L. are identical, isn’t the question then of a technicality–of whether the same should be called by either of these two names?

The note at the bottom of the KEW sample has A. arvensis L. var .… written on it and not A. foemina as indicated by you.


I may have understood it incorrectly and if I have, please correct me.

Thanks and regards,
Ashwini

On 30-Apr-2015, at 11:48 pm, surajit koley <surajitno...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is a tough question, to differentiate the two taxa (or is it one?), in spite of eFI having a clear demarcation.

Flower character, length of pedicels etc are often overlapping. While sites like http://keyserver.lucidcentral.org/weeds/data/03030800-0b07-490a-8d04-0605030c0f01/media/Html/Anagallis_arvensis.htm or http://flowers2.la.coocan.jp/Myrsinaceae/Anagallis%20arvensis.htm or http://hirc.botanic.hr/fcd/DetaljiFrame.aspx?IdVrste=941 think all is same some other sites like the following links think otherwise -
  1. http://www.floravascular.com/index.php?spp=Anagallis%20foemina
  2. http://www.floravascular.com/index.php?spp=Anagallis%20arvensis
I think number of seeds may help - 10 to 23 in foemina and 20 to 35 in arvensis (caerulea L.).


Since pedicels in the attached pics are longer than the subtending leaves, and I prefer to follow FoC it is likely to be A. arvensis L.

Thank you
Regards
surajit

On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 4:47 PM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think you should be right.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ashwini Bhatia <ash...@ashwinibhatia.com>
Date: 24 April 2015 at 17:51
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:221413] Re: Blue Pimpernel ABAPR01/17
To: "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com>
Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>


Thank you very much Dr Garg. I am attaching here more photos to go with the key. Please advise if my understanding is correct;


The first sample, petals are longer than sepals and petal edges are minutely hairy like a torn paper.
<_MG_0262_13April15.jpg>

The second sample from a different location shows pedicel longer than leaves.

<_MG_0272_18April15.jpg>

Petals are overlapping.
<_MG_0272c_18April15.jpg>


Ashwini Bhatia

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Apr 30, 2015, 10:27:32 PM4/30/15
to Gurcharan Singh, surajit koley, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Thank you Dr Singh. It was from your post and the well-explained differences between A. arvensis and A. foemina that I had concluded my sample to be A. arvensis subsp. caerulea.

Regards,
Ashwini


<_MG_0262_13April15.jpg>

The second sample from a different location shows pedicel longer than leaves.

<_MG_0272_18April15.jpg>

Petals are overlapping.
<_MG_0272c_18April15.jpg>


Gurcharan Singh

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May 1, 2015, 12:00:56 AM5/1/15
to Ashwini Bhatia, surajit koley, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Ushadi
In systematics we say, if some characters overlap, we do not rely on single character, but a combination of characters. 

Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

Ushadi Micromini

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May 1, 2015, 12:27:01 AM5/1/15
to Gurcharan Singh, Ashwini Bhatia, surajit koley, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
I know Gurcharanji

i was underscoring the  futility of relying on old literature

and i thought it was funny:  the seed count, that's all.

may be difference in numbers of seeds translates into a difference in size of the fruits?
or the seeds?

of course botanical diagnosis is an art ... like medical diagnosis


usha di

Usha di
===========

Ushadi Micromini

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May 1, 2015, 12:33:25 AM5/1/15
to Gurcharan Singh, surajit koley, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Ashwini Bhatia
thank you Gurcharanji for the link

indeed it is/was a good thread
and 2011 thread before that was also good

usha di



Usha di
===========

surajit koley

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May 1, 2015, 6:38:35 AM5/1/15
to Ushadi Micromini, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Ashwini Bhatia
My dearest Didi,

All the time I am telling that we need to examine a number of individuals in a given population when we try to identify  critical species which have close look alike(S).
We need to examine several specimen of parts of a single individual as well. For example if we need to get detail on petiole, lamina etc of leaves of a species we can not but help collecting several leaves of an individual as well as several set of such specimen of a population to obtain accurate data.
Similarly you need to examine several fruits to get an avg. number. If the avg. is 24 you have several other features to examine.

Does it help your funny bones Didi?

Thank you
Regards

surajit koley

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May 1, 2015, 7:14:04 AM5/1/15
to Ashwini Bhatia, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Gurcharan Singh
Dear Ashwini Ji,

When I write A. arvensis L. I mean Anagalls arvensis Linnaeus.
As for your concern regarding latifolia you may like to see http://plantillustrations.org/illustration.php?id_illustration=86648.
As for your question regarding caerulea please check

As for your question regarding KEW's label in foemina herb. you need to check http://plants.jstor.org/stable/10.5555/al.ap.specimen.k000750810

Does this satisfies you?

Thank you
Regards
surajit

surajit koley

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May 1, 2015, 7:27:08 AM5/1/15
to Ushadi Micromini, Gurcharan Singh, Ashwini Bhatia, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
One more time I copy my exact words which raised an unnecessary issue : "I think number of seeds may help - 10 to 23 in foemina and 20 to 35 in arvensis (caerulea L.)."

Do I need to explain the meaning of "may help"?

Thank you
Regards
surajit

Ushadi Micromini

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May 1, 2015, 10:56:50 AM5/1/15
to surajit koley, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Ashwini Bhatia
no need to get angry, Surajit

your explanation is scientific and very correct
prim and proper

but, not funny

it does not have to be

i thought by now you will also have learned to laugh with me

the 24 seeds comment was a repartee, but you are getting too serious...


bhalo theko

usha di
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Usha di
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Ushadi Micromini

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May 1, 2015, 10:59:56 AM5/1/15
to surajit koley, Ashwini Bhatia, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Gurcharan Singh
Surajit
these two sirtes :

were you able to read or translate them????

all the descriptions?

or did you get an automatic translation  somehow..

i cant get them in english!

How would one know what they are talikin gabout?


usha di


Usha di
===========

surajit koley

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May 1, 2015, 11:26:59 AM5/1/15
to Ushadi Micromini, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Ashwini Bhatia
Dearest Didi,

I would like to ask you a question or two. How does a taxonomist/botanist identify a new species?  How does a taxonomist/botanist reinstate a taxon to its original.

I would also like to ask experienced botanists that (1) is the view Manudev Ji expressed in 2011 obsolete today? (2) does a protologue fall under old literature?

Angry. did you say Didi? Quite amusing to me!

Thank you
Regards

surajit koley

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May 1, 2015, 11:32:24 AM5/1/15
to Ushadi Micromini, Ashwini Bhatia, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Gurcharan Singh
Dearest Didi,

If you use chrome browser you can right click the page and get option of "Translate to English". But it has limitations, not all words are perfectly translated, chrome doesn't perhaps know what page is meant for botany and what is not! For example the word "Hojas" in those pages gets translated as "sheets"!

Thank you
Regards

Ushadi Micromini

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May 1, 2015, 11:38:10 AM5/1/15
to surajit koley, Ashwini Bhatia, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Gurcharan Singh
I am bowing out of this thread
do what you want
its just too intense

science has to be fun
not a place for picking fights
and relying on old literature

lets rely on what Gurcharanji our own taxonomists has already stated in two threads


good bye
usha di

ps Sorry Ashwini


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