Hooghly - Cucurbita pepo (?)?

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surajit koley

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Nov 3, 2013, 11:03:07 AM11/3/13
to efloraofindia
This one is growing on the roof of our storeroom. It seems to be the Cucurbita pepo, but is it C. pepo L.?
Both in "Bengal Plants" and in Flora of British India it had been cited as C. pepo DC.

Thank you,

Regards

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Gurcharan Singh

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Nov 4, 2013, 3:37:10 AM11/4/13
to surajit koley, efloraofindia
Surajit ji
This fruit had confused me a lot, initially I had also thought it to be C. pepo, but after I saw some older fruits, I noticed features of C. moschata.

Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089


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surajit koley

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Nov 4, 2013, 11:56:19 AM11/4/13
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Sir,

I am attaching records from Dr. Prain, Dr. Haines, FBI & FI. It is interesting to not that while Dr. Haines thinks C. melopepo L. is synonymous with C. pepo DC, Dr, Prain & Dr. Hooker think otherwise.

The leaves (not photographed yet) of this plant are harsh, and the entire plant is somewhat prickly.


C. pepo DC
C. pepo Willd. iv. 609
C. moshcata Duchesne
C. melopepo. Willd. iv. 610.
C. maxima Duchesne
Prain

rigid, pungent hairs on the beneath of petiole; leaves deeply five lobed;

calyx lobes narrow subulate
leaf stalk hairy all over, but not pungent or rigid hair;

calyx lobes broad spathulate, leafy

leaf stalk hairy all over, but not pungent or rigid hair;

calyx lobes narrow-subulate
Haines leaves harsh, rigid, acute lobed;


peduncles sulcate;

corolla narrowed at base, with erect lobes
leaves soft, indumentum fine & soft;

peduncle pentagonal,
expanded below the fruit;

sepals often foliaceous
leaves harsh, rigid, rounded lobed;

peduncle not sulcate;

corolla lobes curved outwards
FBI prickly rigid hair on the beneath of the petiole;

peduncle woody, strongly grooved;

hairs of the petiole not pungent;


----------------

calyx segments spathulate or foliaceous
hairs of the petiole not pungent;

peduncle stout corky, striated, not grooved;

calyx segments lanceolate-linear
FI fruit sub-cylindric, both ends obtuse, suface very even fruit roundish, smooth, torulose -----------

It is very confusing.

Thank you,

Regards,

surajit
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surajit koley

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Nov 4, 2013, 11:26:02 PM11/4/13
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Good morning Sir

Attaching photographs male & female flower, fruit, leaves, sepals, petiole, peduncle/pedicel. Leaf stalk is prickly, petiole sometimes longer than lamina. Petiole odorous but not intense.

Thank you,

Regards,

surajit
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Gurcharan Singh

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Nov 5, 2013, 12:03:14 AM11/5/13
to surajit koley, efloraofindia
Surajit ji
If this particular plant is at a place where you can follow it up, you may be able to solve the mystery. Your photograph 312 does not show any foliaceous calyx lobes, but 336 shows clearly foliaceous. Are they are from the same vine?, if not keep track of them. Your image 323 shows the swollen tip of peduncle slightly separated from fruit base as also shown on page 53 of my book. This is one aspect you can perhaps sort out before next printing of my book. I have depicted both types of fruits in my book. Two things that kept me away from Cucucurbita pepo are first leaves not lobed (All plants of C. pepo I have seen in California including Zucchini which is now grown in India have deeply lobed leaves). Besides Book    Vegetable Crops by Balakrishnan mentions only chapan kadu as member of C. pepo cultivated in India. 

Perhaps you have a very challenging assignment.

Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089


surajit koley

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Nov 5, 2013, 11:44:12 AM11/5/13
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Sir,

There are three vines growing in our home. From ground they climb to the roof of our store room as can be seen in the newly attached first pic. There. on the roof, they remain prostrate. They are intertwined so closely, firmly gripping each other with their tendrils, it is hard to separate them and follow individually.

Yet, i rechecked thoroughly this afternoon. All bearing -
  • same leaves, no white patch on any, petiole prickly
  • mature stem of all very prickly
  • leaf upper surface very scabrous, lower surface hairy, but not scabrous
  • two plants bear fruit; fruits are same, peduncle grooved, somewhat woody (not sure, maybe corky instead)
As for sepals it is the most confusing part. Of all the flowers i have examined only 3 or 4 have somewhat foliaceous sepals at the tip. But, this foliaceous part is variable (pic xx399 in this latest record), one having distinct while another is narrow wing like along the linear sepal.

Surely the fruits can be said xerox copies of your photograph in page 53 of your book. Also the leaves in page 51.
Also, it can be said that my plant(s), except for sepal confusion, is a copy of the illustration in FoC.

On the other hand all the three plants certainly oppose the record of C. moschata by Dr. Haines, "The species is easily recognised by its general softness,.."
But, then i might be very wrong, perhaps C. pepo is much more harsh-rigid-prickly than i am thinking of.

Thank you,

Regards,

surajit

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Gurcharan Singh

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Nov 5, 2013, 11:32:49 PM11/5/13
to surajit koley, efloraofindia
Please follow them till maturity to resolve. Here in Delhi there are two types of fruits sold in the market. Those looking similar to yours sold as petha (most commonly) or kadu  or safed kadu (some as Sita phal) and cooked as vegetable. These are globose, dark green with white lines or patches, almost flat or depressed top. The second is sold almost yellow in colour (second photograph in my book), elongated, almost oblong and up to 80 cm long, mostly sold as Sita phal, cooked as vegetable but more commonly as sweet halwa. Inititially I had thought them to be two different species, former as C. pepo and latter as C. moschata, but latter changed my mind after seeing wide range of fruits in the market and images of ayote squash on the net and its description in Vegetable crops by Balakrishnan.
   As I wrote earlier may be you will be able to give me a clear picture after studying your vines in detail and following up fruits till maturity.

   

Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089


surajit koley

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Nov 6, 2013, 1:15:58 PM11/6/13
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Sir,

The more i read the more it gets complicated to conclude. I surely would follow the plants in my home. We eat its leaf as SHAG/SHAK (significantly rough & bland tasted compared to Indian spinach) and the fruits as vegetable. We do not prepare any pumpkin-HALWA and the same can be said about my friends/neighbour.

Meanwhile, it has grooved/sulcate peduncle of pepo (Hooker & Haines), prickly (pepo, Hooker), but, 1) leaves are not deeply five-lobed (Prain) 2) problem of sepal, 3) doubt over if petiole can be called pungent (pepo, Prain).

Herbarium in the net is not helpul -

Regards,

surajit

Gurcharan Singh

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Nov 6, 2013, 11:05:06 PM11/6/13
to surajit koley, efloraofindia
We also used to cultivate the vine in Kashmir. I don't remember the fruit, but flowers were large and yellow, C. pepo or C. moschata. Our mother used to cook flowers buds and young shoots as karhi (using curd but withour gram flour) it used to be very tasty. She would make halwa for us from fruits, but at that age (8-10 years), pepo or moschata had no meaning for us.
 

Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089


surajit koley

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Nov 7, 2013, 12:50:13 PM11/7/13
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Sir,

This plant is known as BIBI KUMRA locallly. I forgot to mention that we also eat its flower (male) fried with gram-flour.
After much thought I think it is C. moschata Duchesne as you have already identified in your book or in eFI.

Spathulate sepals (however variable it may be), pentagonal peduncle with broad/expanded attachment should precede any other discrepancies in leaf or hair characteristics.

Thank you very much for this very educative discussion.

Regards,

surajit

surajit koley

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Dec 8, 2013, 1:39:28 PM12/8/13
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Sir,

Photographs of partly mature fruits and seeds, recorded on 29/11/13.

Thank you,

Regards,

surajit

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surajit koley

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Dec 20, 2013, 12:53:12 PM12/20/13
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Sir,

Only one plant is still alive and these fruits are growing on this very plant. I checked 10 fruits today and only two of those fruits have foliaceous sepals. It is interesting to note that foliaceous sepals when present in a particular fruit are not identical to each other. This upload is meant only for update/record.

Thank you,

Regards,

surajit

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Gurcharan Singh

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Dec 20, 2013, 9:59:23 PM12/20/13
to surajit koley, efloraofindia
Thanks a lot Surajit ji for detailed uploads.

Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089


surajit koley

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Dec 21, 2013, 11:03:11 AM12/21/13
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Thank you Sir, hope to find other Cucurbita someday, specially the big one in the fields.

Regards,

surajit

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