Request for ID : 101110 : AK-1

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Aarti S. Khale

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Nov 10, 2010, 12:04:58 AM11/10/10
to efloraofindia
Date/Time : 5th of October, 2010.
Location Place : Nasik,Maharashtra ...
Altitude : ... GPS : ...
Habitat : Wild ... Type : ...
Plant Habit : Creeper ... Height : ... Length : about 4-5 feet
Leaves Type : ... Shape : ... Size :
Inflorescence Type : ... Size :
Flowers Size : less than 1 cm ... Colour : lemon ... Calyx : ... Bracts : ...
Fruits Type : red berries ... Shape : round ... Size : very
tiny...less than 1 cm ... Seeds : ...

Other Info :
Fragrance : ... Pollinator : ... Uses : ...

Found growing wild by the roadside.
Sorry for the bad picture quality
Aarti

DSCN0760.JPG
DSCN0762.JPG

Dinesh Valke

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Nov 10, 2010, 12:10:17 AM11/10/10
to Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
Cucumis maderaspatanus (popular synonym: Mukia maderaspatana)

... commonly known as: bristly bryony, Madras pea pumpkin, rough bryony • Bengali: bilari • Gujarati: tindori • Hindi: बिलाड़ी bilari, मुसमुसा musmusa, परिपुष्करा paripushkara, पिण्डिला pindila, सेटु setu • Kannada: chitrati • Konkani: चिरटी chirati • Malayalam: chitrati • Marathi: चिरटी chirati • Nepalese: मट्याङग्र काँक्री matyangre kankri • Punjabi: gwala kakri • Rajasthani: ankh phutani • Sanskrit: परिपुष्करा paripushkara, पिण्डिला pindila, सेटु setu  • Tamil: முசுமுசுக்கை muchumuchukkai, பரிபுஷ்கரை paripuskarai • Telugu: నూగుదోస nugudosa • Urdu: مسمسا musmusa


Regards.

Aarti S. Khale

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Nov 10, 2010, 12:12:45 AM11/10/10
to Dinesh Valke, efloraofindia
Dinesh ji,
Must say you are really fast.
Thanks a lot.
Aarti

On 11/10/10, Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *Cucumis maderaspatanus* (popular synonym: *Mukia maderaspatana*)

Dinesh Valke

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Nov 10, 2010, 12:20:33 AM11/10/10
to Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
... only sometimes !!! (only when familiar, and the coincidence of getting to see the post first) !!!
Thank you very much, Aarti ji.

tanay bose

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Nov 10, 2010, 9:02:20 AM11/10/10
to Dinesh Valke, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
Cucumis maderaspatanus
tanay
--
Tanay Bose
Research Assistant & Teaching Assistant.
Department of Botany.
University of British Columbia .
3529-6270 University Blvd.
Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z4 (Canada)
Phone: 778-323-4036 (Mobile)
            604-822-2019 (Lab)

Pankaj Kumar

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Nov 10, 2010, 9:58:10 AM11/10/10
to Dinesh Valke, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
According to IPNI and LINN 'Mukia' is the accepted name.

Mukia maderaspatana (L.) M.Roem. Fam. Nat. Syn. Monogr. 2: 47. 1846
Cucumis maderaspatanus L. Sp. Pl. 2: 1012. 1753

Type: Lectotype = "Cucumis Maderaspatensis fructu minimo" in Plukenet,
Phytographia, t. 170, f. 2, 1692

Regards
Pankaj

--
***********************************************
"TAXONOMISTS GETTING EXTINCT AND SPECIES DATA DEFICIENT !!"


Pankaj Kumar Ph.D. (Orchidaceae)
Research Associate
Greater Kailash Sacred Landscape Project
Department of Habitat Ecology
Wildlife Institute of India
Post Box # 18
Dehradun - 248001, India

Dinesh Valke

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Nov 10, 2010, 10:16:14 AM11/10/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
Cucumis maderaspatanus L.
Name verified on: 26-Jun-2007 by ARS Systematic Botanists. Last updated: 24-Nov-2008 at ARS-GRIN
http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?12563

Is there some way of knowing when were records of IPNI and LINN last updated ... please treat this query as naive.

The intent is to know whether IPNI does any revisions of their records.

Gurcharan Singh

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Nov 10, 2010, 10:17:50 AM11/10/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Dinesh Valke, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
Pl. note IPNI does not give accepted names and synonyms although APNI does (and it is silent about Cucumis maderaspatanus)
IPNI merely gives what is the basionym of a particular combination. This can be known from the following example. For example it says about: Mukia maderaspatana (L.) M. Roem. var. gracilis Kurz.:

basionym of:Cucurbitaceae Cucumis gracilis (Kurz) Ghebret. & Thulin Novon 17(2):177. 2007 [20 Jun 2007]

basionym of:Cucurbitaceae Cucumis gracilis (Kurz) H.Schaef. Blumea 52(1): 167. 2007 [4 Jul 2007]

basionym of:Cucurbitaceae Mukia gracilis (Kurz) W.J.de Wilde & Duyfjes Thai Forest Bull., Bot. 34: 40. 2006 [Dec 2006]


According to GRIN accepted name is Cucumis maderaspatanus L. is the correct name and Mukia maderaspatana (L.) M. Roem. its synonym.



-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Pankaj Kumar

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Nov 10, 2010, 11:46:42 AM11/10/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
There was a project undertaken by Natural History Museum London,
called, The Linnaean Plant Name Typification Project. Headed by Dr.
Charles Jarvis a very senior taxonomist, who happens to be on my
friend list. They came out with a book called, "Order Out of Chaos:
Linnaean Plant Names and Their Types". In this he provided information
on the status of Type Specimens of Linnaeus and of those he referred
and the species what he had described. The books gives the details of
type and lectotypes of all the taxa described by Linnaeus along with
their currently accepted names. According to the book, the currently
accepted name is Mukia maderaspatana (L.) M.Roem.. The book was
released in 2007 and I am yet to have a copy of it :(.

IPNI does provide the synonyms as well as basionyms and in this
particular taxa, it claims Cucumis as basionym. If you check the
record history of the taxa then there are editings done by "BARKER". I
know Dr. Tina Barker at IPNI personally, so I may ask her, but as the
site claims, most probably, her answer will be same.

Even JSTOR accepts Mukia as accepted name.

http://plants.jstor.org/flora/ftea001827 (I am not sure if you can
open this link, I can because I am a member of it).

Note that GRIN database claims that it was last updated in 2008, but
updation there may not mean updation in the synonymy but also any
other information on the webpage of particular species, that may
include other references.

IPNI may be wrong, and so can be GRIN, but I trust Dr. Charles Jarvis and JSTOR.

I am not forcing my point here. I am giving my reference and you are
giving yours. We just need to check who is correct. Both have our
references to support our views.

Regards
Pankaj

Gurcharan Singh

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Nov 10, 2010, 12:02:48 PM11/10/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Dinesh Valke, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
Thanks a lot for the information, Pankaj ji


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Pankaj Kumar

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Nov 10, 2010, 12:34:14 PM11/10/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Ritesh Choudhary, Sid, Dinesh Valke, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
These are the references on the basis of which five genera, Cucumella,
Dicoelospermum, Mukia, Myrmecosicyos, and Oreosyce have been included
in Cucumis (especially the Blumea article by Schaefer ). But the
reasons are not yet clear and secondly I dont know if the original
paper on Phylogenetics as claimed by Schaefer are the other two I am
attaching.

If we consider these, then the accepted name should be Cucumis
maderaspatanus. But the tree given in Cucumis 003 by S.S. Renner* and
H. Schaefer creates doubt for me, though I dont understand this tree
much.
May be our friend Sid and Ritesh can help us out in understanding this.
Regards
Pankaj

CUCUMIS 002.pdf
Cucumis 003.pdf
blumea.pdf

Dinesh Valke

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Nov 10, 2010, 12:40:19 PM11/10/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Pankaj Kumar, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
Many thanks Pankaj for your clarifications ... yet hoping we get to know of facts.

Mukia maderaspatana
is a very popular name ... it is found in many literature (old non-botanic)... on the contrary, Cucumis maderaspatanus is lesser found.

From the two references, GRIN and IPNI, whatever status they show of this species currently ... thoughts coming to my mind: ... for some reason, Cucumis maderaspatanus gains currency somewhere in the recent past (justifying GRIN's effort of stating it) ... for some reason, the old popular name regains its status and becomes the accepted name (as per your clarifications).


Regards.







On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com> wrote:

Pankaj Kumar

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Nov 10, 2010, 12:49:03 PM11/10/10
to Dinesh Valke, Gurcharan Singh, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
No sir, its not because of popularity in this case. On the basis of
popularity a wrong name can be accepted like they do for Orchidaceae.
Like Orchidaceae described my Jussieu is accepted though the one
described by Adanson was older. Former name (Orchidaceae Juss.) was
conserved.

Here the main reason given is the genetic makeup of the taxa which is
given in the three references I provided in my last mail. On the basis
of popularity it could have been done, but merging 5 different genera
into one is a big deal!!

Regards
Pankaj

Dinesh Valke

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Nov 10, 2010, 1:00:08 PM11/10/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Gurcharan Singh, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
Our last mails overlapped ... !!!
Many thanks once again for digging deeper !!!

Hopefully friends pursuing Mukia and Cucumis will resolve this confusion.

Regards.

Vijayasankar

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Nov 10, 2010, 1:22:58 PM11/10/10
to Dinesh Valke, Pankaj Kumar, Gurcharan Singh, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
Very interesting discussion.
Change of names in this group has become constant!
But, I think Schaefer has finally come up with a solution for the confusion in the nomenclature by merging the closely allied 'genera', though he has added few more new names in addition to the existing list. But, GRIN seem to have updated the nomenclature based on some ref. (on 26 June 2007) before publication of Schaefer's paper (published on 4 July 2007).
 
Anyway, we should be aware that Cucumis ritchei is not our Cucumella ritchei which is now Cucumis indicus!!
And from now we will call Mukia maderaspata as Cucumis maderaspatanus.
Thanks Pankaj for the references.
 
Regards

Vijayasankar


Pankaj Kumar

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Nov 10, 2010, 1:29:08 PM11/10/10
to Vijayasankar, Dinesh Valke, Gurcharan Singh, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
Ok Vijay, as you say!!
Regards
Pankaj

Dinesh Valke

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Nov 10, 2010, 1:32:14 PM11/10/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Vijayasankar, Gurcharan Singh, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
Again many thanks: Pankaj, Gurcharan ji and Vijayasankar ji.
Regards.

Pankaj Kumar

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Nov 10, 2010, 1:36:56 PM11/10/10
to Dinesh Valke, Vijayasankar, Gurcharan Singh, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
By the way I rechecked, Cucumis 002 which i sent was published on April 2007!!

Renner, S.S., H. Schaefer and A. Kocyan. 2007. Phylogenetics of
Cucumis (Cucurbitaceae): Cucumber (C. sativus) belongs in an
Asian/Australian clade far from melon (C. melo). BMC Evolutionary
Biology, 7: 58 - 69.

Pankaj

Gurcharan Singh

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Nov 10, 2010, 2:39:22 PM11/10/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Dinesh Valke, Vijayasankar, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
Pankaj ji
Thanks for important papers. Well if we are to infer from the tree, Mukia maderaspatana nests well within Cucumis. In fact it is much more closely related to C. sativus than C. melo is to C. sativus. 

thanks for inputs.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Pankaj Kumar

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Nov 10, 2010, 2:47:23 PM11/10/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Vijayasankar, Aarti S. Khale, efloraofindia
Yes, but look at the title of the second article

"Cucumber (C. sativus) belongs in an Asian/Australian clade far from
melon (C. melo)". If they are calling this far, then how maderaspatana
is close? This is where I would prefer some mol. systematicists to
give inputs.
I believe at many times, gene sequences cant be of help in describing
the link between two taxa because its afterall a very small segment of
the whole gene. You always need a field botanists and hardcore
taxonomists to identify you plant.

After all 99% of human gene match with chimpanzee, still we are so different.

Regards
Pankaj

Aarti S. Khale

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Nov 10, 2010, 11:54:08 PM11/10/10
to tanay bose, Dinesh Valke, efloraofindia, Pankaj Kumar
Dear Pankaj ji, Dinesh ji and Tanay,
Thanks for the id.
Regards,
Aarti

On 11/10/10, tanay bose <tanay...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *Cucumis maderaspatanus*
> ***tanay
> *

> *Tanay Bose*

Aarti S. Khale

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Nov 11, 2010, 12:32:08 AM11/11/10
to Vijayasankar, tanay bose, Dinesh Valke, Pankaj Kumar, Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Gurcharan ji and Vijayasankar ji,
Thanks a lot for additional info.
Sorry to have missed out on your names earlier.
Regards,
Aarti

On 11/10/10, Vijayasankar <vijay.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Very interesting discussion.
> Change of names in this group has become constant!
> But, I think Schaefer has finally come up with a solution for the confusion
> in the nomenclature by merging the closely allied 'genera', though he has
> added few more new names in addition to the existing list. But, GRIN seem to
> have updated the nomenclature based on some ref. (on 26 June 2007) before
> publication of Schaefer's paper (published on 4 July 2007).
>
> Anyway, we should be aware that Cucumis ritchei is not our Cucumella ritchei
> which is now Cucumis indicus!!

> And from now we will call Mukia maderaspata as *Cucumis maderaspatanus*.


> Thanks Pankaj for the references.
>
> Regards
>
> Vijayasankar
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Dinesh Valke
> <dinesh...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Our last mails overlapped ... !!!
>> Many thanks once again for digging deeper !!!
>>

>> Hopefully friends pursuing *Mukia* and *Cucumis* will resolve this

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