Tamarindus indica L.

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Rashida Atthar

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Jun 29, 2010, 10:38:39 AM6/29/10
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Flowering and fruiting of Tamarindus indica L. seen at Yeoor  part of the national park of Mumbai on 27 June 10. The small beautiful flowers have three normal and two reduced petals and almost look like orchids !

regards,
Rashida.
Tamarindus indica flowers close up.JPG
Tamarindus indica pods flowers .JPG
Tamarindus indica L..JPG
Tamarindus indica tree.JPG

tanay bose

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Jun 29, 2010, 1:10:27 PM6/29/10
to Rashida Atthar, indian...@googlegroups.com
NICE CATCH OF THIS LOVELY FRUIT !!
TANAY

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Dr. Pankaj Kumar

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Jul 11, 2010, 1:28:27 PM7/11/10
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Just wanted to add one info. Many believe that the plant is originated
in India as stated by Linnaeus too. But the plant is supposed to be
originally from Tamarind Island. This generic and specific epithet is
one of the few unique ones as both genus and species are based on name
of a place. There are very few such examples other than this, like,
India arunachalensis an Orchid.

Nice pics BTW.

Regards
Pankaj

tanay bose

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Jul 11, 2010, 1:31:13 PM7/11/10
to Dr. Pankaj Kumar, efloraofindia
Thanks for the info pankaj ji I was not aware of this fact.
Thanks

tanay

Rashida Atthar

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Jul 12, 2010, 9:26:10 AM7/12/10
to Dr. Pankaj Kumar, efloraofindia
Thanks for this interesting info. Dr. Pankaj.

regards,
Rashida.

 

On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 10:58 PM, Dr. Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com> wrote:

Stephen A

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Jul 23, 2010, 12:26:16 AM7/23/10
to Dr. Pankaj Kumar, efloraofindia
Dear Pankaj,

Btw, Its great to know more about a common plant which has been used as condiment in our culinary preparations.
Can you just throw some light on Tamarind Islands because I couldn't locate it on the web.
One such island is located near Thailand but it is far away place from its native of tropical Africa.

So, can you just explain where this island is located!!!

Regards,

Stephen...

On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 10:58 PM, Dr. Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com> wrote:



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Gurcharan Singh

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Jul 23, 2010, 12:50:20 AM7/23/10
to Stephen A, efloraofindia
My source, well known book L. H. Bailey "Manual of Cultivated Plants" writes that the generic name Tamarindus is derived from the Arabic Tamar-Hindi meaning "Indian Date". This is also confirmed by web information:

"Persians and the Arabs who called it "tamar hindi" (Indian date, from the date-like appearance of the dried pulp), giving rise to both its common and generic names. Unfortunately, the specific name, "indica", also perpetuates the illusion of Indian origin. The fruit was well known to the ancient Egyptians and to the Greeks in the 4th Century B.C."

"Native to tropical Africa, the tree grows wild throughout the Sudan and was so long ago introduced into and adopted in India that it has often been reported as indigenous there also, and it was apparently from this Asiatic country that it reached the Persians and the Arabs who called it "tamar hindi" (Indian date, from the date-like appearance of the dried pulp), giving rise to both its common and generic names. Unfortunately, the specific name, "indica", also perpetuates the illusion of Indian origin. The fruit was well known to the ancient Egyptians and to the Greeks in the 4th Century B.C."

The source Tamarind Islands comes nowhere in picture.




-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Pankaj Oudhia

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Jul 23, 2010, 2:01:25 AM7/23/10
to efloraofindia
Not sure whether it is Indian plant or not but the quantum of medicinal knowledge about Tamarindus we Indians have is not present in any part of the world. 

Many times people fond of alcoholic drinks, in excess, ask about herbs and herbal formulations that can minimize, even nullify the harmful effects of alcohol. I suggest them number of herbs including Tamarindus.  

Here is link of my recent work on this species.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&q=+site:www.pankajoudhia.com+Tamarindus+oudhia&sa=X&ei=cS1JTOr4LoKevQPJoZmhBQ&ved=0CAIQqAQwAg&fp=897aea7213a14494

regards

Pankaj Oudhia

R. Vijayasankar

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Jul 23, 2010, 2:19:26 AM7/23/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Stephen A, efloraofindia
Stephan ji, The location details (!!!!!!!!?) can be seen in this link: http://misc.thefullwiki.org/Tamarind_Island
 
Gurcharan ji and all,
The question which comes in everybody's mind is, if it is native to India why there is no wild population exist in our country. And we can not see it in wild condition either inside forests or in open fields. Whatever plant we see along fringes/ highly disturbed parts of forests and near habitations are practically from planted sources and/or dispersal of seeds by birds?, animals and human. Contrastingly, this species occur in wild in the 'forests' of Madagascar, for e.g.
 
May be it was (and is) so popular and widely planted and used in our country that Linnaeus gave the name keeping India in mind? However, some authors consider the specific epithet denotes the West Indies where it is said to be indigenous (?) too. 
 
Another question: in what context Hooker described Tamarindus officinalis as new species (now synonym), based on specimen from where? what source: wild or planted?
 
...while writing this i read a monograph in this link: http://www.icuc-iwmi.org/files/Publications/tamarind_monograph.pdf and i am almost clear and convinced now about its distribution. I suggest you to read (page 9 onwards) this well researched monograph for clarity too.

With regards

Vijayasankar


Gurcharan Singh

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Jul 23, 2010, 2:33:53 AM7/23/10
to R. Vijayasankar, Stephen A, efloraofindia
Vijayasankar ji
I think the available literature confirms that the plant is native of Africa and not India. My quote from the link above clarifies the situation.


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Stephen A

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Jul 27, 2010, 12:17:46 AM7/27/10
to Gurcharan Singh, R. Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Thank you all,
I am much convinced by Dr. Gurcharan Ji and Dr. Vijayasankar Ji comments.
It is native of Tropical Africa - even the monograph on Tamarindus emphasizes this.

Once again thanks to one and all for enlightening discussion!!!

Regards,

Stephen...

Pankaj Kumar

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Jul 27, 2010, 1:37:44 AM7/27/10
to Stephen A, Gurcharan Singh, R. Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Dear Mr. Stephen,

Sorry for the late reply, I had been out in the himalaya for field
work for some time and couldnt check mails.

http://answers.yahoo.com amuse me a lot and I dont know how much
anyone can rely upon it. A simple look on wikipedia could have been of
more help.

Thanks a lot Vijay for the short info of Tamarind Island. There must
be hundreds of places of which you find no mention on yahoo answers or
any other answers.

Linnaeus never gave the origin of names in any of his book and so most
of the informations were either a part of some research or just
speculations. Infact for this plant Linnaeus wrote Habitat in India,
AMERICA, Egypt and Arabia. Secondly this plant was described by
Linneaus himself before species plantarum in Hortus Cliffortianus in
1838 and Flora Zeylanica in 1747.
Regards
Pankaj


Regards
Pankaj

Rashida Atthar

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Jul 28, 2010, 10:11:12 AM7/28/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Stephen A, Gurcharan Singh, R. Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Thank you Dr. Stephen for having asked this question which led to correct information and very useful feedbacks from Dr. Gurcharan ji, Dr. Vijayasankar ji and Dr. Oudhia ji. The monograph is excellent and what an important tree this is !!

regards,
Rashida.

Pankaj Kumar

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Jul 28, 2010, 1:10:11 PM7/28/10
to Rashida Atthar, Stephen A, Gurcharan Singh, R. Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Interested persons may try reading the following article. Especially
page no. 857, for quick glance. Hope this clears some querries about
the origin of this particular taxa in question. On the other hand,
monograph does talk a lot about usage of the plant but not much abt
the origin, but yes monograph is certainly very useful.

The reference is being sent in good spirits and not to hamper the
cordial atmosphere of the group.

Regards
Pankaj

GENETIC DIVERSITY OF TAMARINDUS.pdf

Gurcharan Singh

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Jul 28, 2010, 1:30:12 PM7/28/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Rashida Atthar, Stephen A, R. Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
I have gone through the paper but find nothing against what has been quoted by us:  African Origin, early introduction into India and name Tamarindus derived from "Tamar Hindi". The authors mention about two opposite views: African Origin (Grollier, 1998) and Indian Origin (Poupon & Chouvin, 1983; Wunderlin, 1998), but themselves conclude (read last line of abstract: "However, if we take into account the paleontological and anthropological results, we can assume that T. indica has an African origin."  
   I find this paper has nothing new or contradictory to our opinion in this thread.
Any way thanks for copy of the paper.


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Pankaj Kumar

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Jul 28, 2010, 1:41:19 PM7/28/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Rashida Atthar, Stephen A, R. Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Thanks a lot for reading the aritcle.....

Page no. 854, paragraph 3, line no. 18: Tamarindus is said to have
some resemblance to Heterostemon Desf. from the upper Amazon region of
South America.

Page no. 857, paragrah 2, line no. 1: The high intra population
variability from the populations of the presumed origins of T. Indica
do not allow for confirmation of the geographical origin of the
species between Africa, Madagascar and India, as the sampling was
small in Asia and Madagascar.

Hope that contradicts the information provided earlier.
Regards
Pankaj

Gurcharan Singh

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Jul 28, 2010, 9:30:43 PM7/28/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Rashida Atthar, Stephen A, R. Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
I does'nt, whether you like it or not. I hope you know why and what people write in abstract.


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Sid

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Jul 28, 2010, 11:41:29 PM7/28/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Pankaj Kumar, Rashida Atthar, Stephen A, R. Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Dear Friends,

This is an interesting discussion about Tamarind. The RAPD paper doesn't exactly answer about the origin of Tamarind.  As a whole the sampling within India (Asia) and Madagascar is sparse. Even the title ends with a question mark. Moreover the authors say they could not find references paleontological evidence of Tamarind pollen in the tertiary (whereas other genera could be found) again mystifying the origin of Tamarind in Africa.

But based on the fact that Africa is the origin of most genera of the tribe (25 genera of Amherstieae (Tamarindus tribe), 23 are endemic to Africa and Madagascar :Polhill and Raven (1981)), it might be concluded that the genus originated in Africa. I could not find any recent well resolved molecular phylogeny of the group. In Bruneau et al., (2001), Tamarind is in the Amherstieae clade. The clade is also not well resolved probably do the lack of enough polymorphisms in the DNA sequence. So there is no clear evidence of the phylogenetic relatives of Tamarind. Prehistoric long distance dispersal into India/Asia by birds might also be not ruled out as a source of entry into India. A molecular study to find out the origin of our beloved Tamarind would be very interesting.

Sid.

tanay bose

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Jul 29, 2010, 12:45:15 AM7/29/10
to Sid, Gurcharan Singh, Pankaj Kumar, Rashida Atthar, Stephen A, R. Vijayasankar, efloraofindia

Raven and Polhill (1981) in the same paper also suggested a relative time of evolution of Fabaceae members which is Upper Cretaceous based on well defined subfamilies (Caesalpinioideae, Mimosoideae and Papilionoideae) that were in existence by the Cretaceous. The paper clearly states the sampling region which is Asia, Africa and Madagascar. Within Asia the population has only been recorded as wild from India where as in Thailand it was recorded as planted.

Before moving any further into the topic it will be quite reasonable to keep the map of the earth during Upper Cretaceous (kindly use the map attached tentative map attached with this mail) in our mind. The map clearly indicates that the two continents have clearly just parted which are South America and Africa. Cameroon (a sampling country in the paper) is in West Africa which is placed exactly at the western major groove of Africa. The coastline through which Amazon comes out into Atlantic Ocean is same in architecture like the West African coastline which we all are aware of while studying continental drift theory.

Now if we assume that the plant like Heterostemon has similarity with Tamarindus indica then probably it is a close ancestor of it or the mother organism. If Heterostemon from upper Amazon has similarity then there should me some evidences in middle and lower Amazon in form of fossils for T indica, or any kind of transitional plant (hence I assume this theory as speculative and not affirmative). The plant was found in Cameroon (West Africa) and East Africa but no evidence was found in central Africa which could have highlighted the probable migration pathway. At the same time in the south east cost of Africa, Madagascar and India are also parting out hence quite possible that they will have some vegetation common with the ancient or present vegetation of East Africa. In Asia no other counties have similarity with Indian flora because India is a piece of migrated land from Africa and not a part of original Asia. It’s quite reasonable that T indica came to Asia because of Indian plate migration.   

Now if I say that the process was different the plant evolved in Indian portion of the then Africa and migrated to present East African countries though Madagascar we can draw a clear line of pathway which is more continuous than the previous one. If we don’t find high diversity within a particular species population that doesn’t confirm that the region has no contribution on its evolution. There are several such records were we find a plant is extinct in a region from where it evolved but found else where, does this harm its evolution strategy? If not then why won’t this be the case for T indica? Probably T indica truly evolved in India but during the course of migration, land reformation, climatic variation (during the Upper Cretaceous) the pollution of this plant was affect which has ultimately decreased the variation.


Kindly consider this theory as a probability and not affirmative.

 

 

Map of world during Upper Cretaceous:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LateCretaceousGlobal.jpg

 

 

 

Tanay

800px-LateCretaceousGlobal.jpg
africatrans.gif

Sid

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Jul 29, 2010, 6:16:08 AM7/29/10
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Dear Tanay,

Your theory is absolutely possible. In a recent study by Bruneau et al., (2008) the "Amherstiae" clade is found to be monophyletic. It includes Tamarindus and the age of this clade is estimated approximately around 52 million years. This paper discusses that the origion of Fabaceae since 65 million years ago (late Cretaceous).

Sid.
Ceasalpinioid.pdf

Gurcharan Singh

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Jul 29, 2010, 6:30:44 AM7/29/10
to Sid, efloraofindia
Thanks Tanay and Sid
The discussion is getting interesting.


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

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tanay bose

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Jul 29, 2010, 8:42:26 AM7/29/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Sid, efloraofindia

Dear Sid Ji,

Theory that I have put forward is simply my personal knowledge about paleobiology, as I don’t have fossil records in my hand hence I have used the word speculative. It is really wonderful to know that prominent evolution biologists support the idea. Even many India famous Biologists think my knowledge in Botany is also speculative (in negative sense), hence you see speculation is term quite long standing for me.

Analyses of the plastid rbcL gene played an early role in our evolving understanding of legume phylogeny. Results from studies by two groups (e.g., Käss and Wink, 1996, 1997; Doyle et al., 1997) were largely concordant with earlier work, confirming for example the monophyly of smaller groups suggested by other molecular evidence (e.g., Lavin et al., 1990; Sanderson and Wojciechowski, 1996) or morphology (Chappill, 1995), and the monophyly of the traditional subfamilies Mimosoideae (“mimosoids”) and Papilionoideae (“papilionoids”), nested within a paraphyletic Caesalpinioideae (“caesalpinioids”). Many of these groups have received additional support and have been more clearly resolved by subsequent, more extensive studies using the plastid trnL intron, alone or in combination with morphology (e.g., Bruneau et al., 2001; Pennington et al., 2001; Herendeen et al., 2003), the plastid matK gene and flanking trnK intron (e.g., Hu et al., 2000; Luckow et al., 2003; Wojciechowski et al., 2004), the nuclear ribosomal DNA ITS region (e.g., Sanderson and Wojciechowski, 1996; Allan and Porter, 2000), or a combination of these and other molecular loci (Lavin et al., 2001, 2003).

The fossil record of the Fabaceae is abundant and diverse, particularly in the Tertiary, with fossil flowers, fruits, leaflets, wood, and pollen known from numerous localities; some examples are shown in the figures below (Crepet and Taylor, 1985, 1986; Crepet and Herendeen, 1992; Herendeen, 1992; Herendeen et al., 1992). Although there are several reports of earlier fossils, Sindora-like pollen (subf. Caesalpinioideae) from the Maastrichtian of Canada, Columbia, and Siberia (Raven and Polhill, 1981) and woods similar to Cassia s. l. and Mimosoideae from the same time period (e.g., Müller-Stoll and Mädel, 1967), they cannot be assigned unequivocally to legumes. The first definitive legumes appear during the Late Paleocene (ca. 56 Mya; Herendeen, 2001; Herendeen and Wing, 2001; Wing et al. 2004). Representatives of all three traditionally recognized subfamilies, the caesalpinioids, mimosoids, and papilionoids (Polhill et al., 1981), as well as other taxonomically large clades within these subfamilies (e.g., “genistoids”), are recorded from the fossil record soon afterward, beginning around 50 to 55 Mya (e.g., Herendeen et al., 1992). Indeed, the occurrence of diverse assemblages of taxa representing all three subfamilies at multiple localities dating from the middle to upper Eocene, especially the Mississippi Embayment of southeastern North America, suggests that most major lineages of woody legumes (except for the tribe Cercideae) were present and extensive diversification had taken place by this time (Herendeen et al., 1992).

Attempts to estimate the age of legumes and diversification in the family, based on molecular sequence data, have been published in recent years. Wikström et al. (2001) used a non-molecular clock based analysis of the three gene data set (plastid atpB & rbcL, and nuclear 18S rDNA genes; Soltis et al., 2000) with a minimum age of 84 Ma for the split between Fagales and Cucurbitales as an internal calibration point, and estimated an age for Fabaceae of 74-79 Ma. A comprehensive analysis of rates of molecular evolution and estimated ages for crown groups within the legume family has been presented by Lavin et al. (2005). In this study, Tertiary macrofossils that showed distinctive combinations of apomorphic characters or features were used to constrain the minimum age of 12 specific internal nodes to estimate ages of a number of the clades identified in recent family-wide phylogenetic analyses of plastid matK (Wojciechowski et al., 2004) and rbcL (Kajita et al., 2001) gene sequence data. Their findings indicate the age of the legume crown clade differs by only 1.0 to 2.5 Ma from the age of the stem clade and the oldest caesalpinioid, mimosoid, and papilionoid crown clades show approximately the same age range of 40 to 59 Ma, findings consistent with a rapid diversification of the family soon after its origin during the Late Paleocene. Remarkably, three large clades that include papilionoids traditionally considered derived (Polhill et al., 1981; Polhill, 1994), the “dalbergioids” (Lavin et al., 2001), “Hologalegina” (Wojciechowski et al., 2000), and “mirbelioids” (Crisp et al., 2000), all have ages estimates in the 50-Ma time frame or older. One of these, Hologalegina, contains many of the well-known temperate, herbaceous species of legumes grown as food and forage crops (e.g., alfalfa, clovers, peas, and lentils).

 

Adopted: Tree of Life Web Project [http://tolweb.org/Fabaceae/21093]

 

 

Tanay



On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Sid,
Thanks a lot for the clarification. I can make out that you have a
good hold on understanding the studies on Molecular systematics. I
would really be interested in knowing about your whereabouts to learn
more from you as I dont know much abt this field and hence I would be
interested in getting in touch with u. My email id is
pankaj...@rediffmail.com.
At the same time I really like Tanay's comments on, "If Heterostemon

from upper Amazon has similarity then there should me some evidences
in middle and lower Amazon in form of fossils for T indica, or any
kind of transitional plant". My confusion was based on Heterostemon's
origin in amazon...but lets see as said by him this theory is
speculative and not affirmative and as said by you that it is
possible.
Lets say, may be due to inadequate sampling we cant reach to conclusion.
Thanks again for putting up so much of info on a simple Tamarind!!!!
This shows we still need to study hard each and every plant in our
locality to understand every aspect of it.

Nice....keep it up....
Regards
Pankaj

Pankaj Kumar

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Jul 29, 2010, 8:50:41 AM7/29/10
to Sid, efloraofindia
Nice work Tanay.
Pankaj

Rashida Atthar

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Jul 29, 2010, 9:30:22 AM7/29/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Sid, efloraofindia
Siddhu ji and Tanay,

Thanks for the very interesting posts and research papers taking us millions of year back !!. Tanay your theorization has taken us from origin of  Tamarind to origin of India! Your speculation is basically your hypothesis and no new addition of knowledge takes place without hypothesis. May you and Siddhu ji  one day be able to establish the actual facts, while  we continue to enjoy the Tamarind !! 

regards,
Rashida. 

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com> wrote:
Nice work Tanay.
Pankaj

promila chaturvedi

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Jul 29, 2010, 9:38:04 AM7/29/10
to tanay bose, Pankaj Kumar, Sid, efloraofindia
This discussion has really became very engrossing. I hope this trend of eflora continues.
Promila

tanay bose

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Jul 29, 2010, 11:39:57 AM7/29/10
to promila chaturvedi, Pankaj Kumar, Sid, efloraofindia
Thanks to all such discussion are always welcome I am a person from evolution biology hence these topic are of my intimate interest. I will welcome some more similar topic. I thank Sidhu Ji for supporting my threads continuously with highly valued research papers.
Till we can establish the fact enjoy the taste of "Khatti imli".

Tanay

Pankaj Kumar

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Jul 29, 2010, 2:33:09 PM7/29/10
to promila chaturvedi, Sid, efloraofindia
Nice, keep it up....
Pankaj
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