Confusion regarding Verbascum chinense

J.M. Garg

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Sep 3, 2020, 11:58:10 AM9/3/20

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Catalogue of life gives Verbascum chinense (L.) Santapau as a syn. of Verbascum coromandelianum subsp. sinense (L.) D. Mc Kean with distribution as China (Guangxi, Sichuan, Yunnan), Pakistan (Sind, Pakistani Punjab, Rawalpindi, N.W.Frontier Prov., Peshawar), Jammu & Kashmir (Kashmir).

POWO gives Verbascum chinense (L.) Santapau with native range is Afghanistan to S. China and Indo-China (Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Cambodia, China South-Central, China Southeast, India, Laos, Thailand, West Himalaya)

POWO also gives Verbascum coromandelianum subsp. sinense with native to China South-Central.

Catalogue of life also gives Verbascum coromandelianum subsp. coromandelianum with distribution as Afghanistan (Kandahar), ?Pakistan, India, Myanmar [Burma] (Ayeyarwady, Bago, Mandalay, Yangon), NE-Thailand, Sri Lanka, Laos, Cambodia, India, Bangladesh.

POWO gives Verbascum coromandelianum with native range is E. & SE. Afghanistan to Myanmar (Afghanistan, India, Myanmar, Sri Lanka).

We have mainly only two species in India as per details at Verbascum

(V. chinense and V.thapsus)

Can anybody help in clearing this confusion? What should be the status of our V.chinense?

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J.M. Garg

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Sep 3, 2020, 12:00:07 PM9/3/20

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Flora of China mentions Verbascum chinense (Linnaeus) Santapau(syn: Scrophularia chinensis Linnaeus; Celsia coromandeliana Vahl; Verbascum coromandelianum (Vahl) Kuntze; V. sinense H. Léveillé & Giraud).

I could not find any clue on searching the net.

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J.M. Garg

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Sep 3, 2020, 9:46:16 PM9/3/20

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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Dr. Anil Kumar Thakur <aniltha...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep, 2020, 10:49 pm
Subject: Re: [itpmods:14616] Fwd: Confusion regarding Verbascum chinense
To: itpmods <itp...@googlegroups.com>

Garg ji, there are many such problems with closely related species on different databases. Therefore, I consult only POWO at present.

Regards

On Thu, 3 Sep 2020, 9:30 pm J.M. Garg, <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

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J.M. Garg

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Sep 3, 2020, 9:46:25 PM9/3/20

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J. M. Garg

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep, 2020, 7:15 am
Subject: Re: [itpmods:14616] Fwd: Confusion regarding Verbascum chinense
To: itpmods <itp...@googlegroups.com>

Hi, Anil ji,
POWO is not the ultimate solution. Catalogue of Life is far ahead in many families, particularly those which are not there in WCSP from Kew.

Both needs to consulted simultaneously where species are not listed in WCSP.

However, any inputs in this matter.

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With regards,
J. M. Garg

On Thu, 3 Sep, 2020, 10:49 pm Dr. Anil Kumar Thakur, <aniltha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Garg ji, there are many such problems with closely related species on different databases. Therefore, I consult only POWO at present.
Regards

On Thu, 3 Sep 2020, 9:30 pm J.M. Garg, <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 at 21:29
Subject: Re: Confusion regarding Verbascum chinense
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>

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J.M.Garg

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J.M. Garg

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Sep 3, 2020, 11:44:47 PM9/3/20

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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Dr. Anil Kumar Thakur <aniltha...@gmail.com>

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 08:26
Subject: Re: [itpmods:14619] Fwd: Confusion regarding Verbascum chinense
To: itpmods <itp...@googlegroups.com>

You are right, Garg ji

But the confusion arises when one data base considers some species as accepted and the other as a synonym of some other name.

Regards

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020, 7:16 am J.M. Garg, <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, Anil ji,
POWO is not the ultimate solution. Catalogue of Life is far ahead in many families, particularly those which are not there in WCSP from Kew.
Both needs to consulted simultaneously where species are not listed in WCSP.
However, any inputs in this matter.
--
With regards,
J. M. Garg

On Thu, 3 Sep, 2020, 10:49 pm Dr. Anil Kumar Thakur, <aniltha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Garg ji, there are many such problems with closely related species on different databases. Therefore, I consult only POWO at present.
Regards

On Thu, 3 Sep 2020, 9:30 pm J.M. Garg, <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 at 21:29
Subject: Re: Confusion regarding Verbascum chinense
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>

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J.M.Garg

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J.M.Garg

J.M. Garg

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Sep 3, 2020, 11:49:02 PM9/3/20

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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 09:18
Subject: Re: [itpmods:14619] Fwd: Confusion regarding Verbascum chinense
To: itpmods <itp...@googlegroups.com>

Hi, Anil ji,

Flora of China mentions Verbascum chinense (Linnaeus) Santapau (syn: Verbascum coromandelianum (Vahl) Kuntze), while POWO reports both of them (Verbascum chinense (Linnaeus) Santapau & Verbascum coromandelianum (Vahl) Kuntze)) as independent species.

We do not know the difference between the two.

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 08:26, Dr. Anil Kumar Thakur <aniltha...@gmail.com> wrote:

You are right, Garg ji
But the confusion arises when one data base considers some species as accepted and the other as a synonym of some other name.
Regards

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020, 7:16 am J.M. Garg, <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, Anil ji,
POWO is not the ultimate solution. Catalogue of Life is far ahead in many families, particularly those which are not there in WCSP from Kew.
Both needs to consulted simultaneously where species are not listed in WCSP.
However, any inputs in this matter.
--
With regards,
J. M. Garg

On Thu, 3 Sep, 2020, 10:49 pm Dr. Anil Kumar Thakur, <aniltha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Garg ji, there are many such problems with closely related species on different databases. Therefore, I consult only POWO at present.
Regards

On Thu, 3 Sep 2020, 9:30 pm J.M. Garg, <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 at 21:29
Subject: Re: Confusion regarding Verbascum chinense
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>

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J.M.Garg

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

J.M. Garg

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Sep 4, 2020, 1:54:27 AM9/4/20

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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 09:58
Subject: Re: [itpmods:14622] Fwd: Confusion regarding Verbascum chinense
To: itpmods <itp...@googlegroups.com>

Verbascum chinense is what was described in Flora of British India as Celsia coromandelianum

Differences are so obvious

V. thapsus: stamens 5, basal leaves not divided, cauline strongly decurrent, densely woolly

V. chinensis: stamens 4, basal leaves lyrate-pinnatifid, cauline not decurrent, not densely woolly.

The species are well represented on Flowers of India

Dr. Gurcharan Singh

Retired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Mob: 9810359089

https://www.gurcharanfamily.com/

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J.M. Garg

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Sep 4, 2020, 1:54:50 AM9/4/20

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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 11:24
Subject: Re: [itpmods:14622] Fwd: Confusion regarding Verbascum chinense
To: itpmods <itp...@googlegroups.com>

Cc: GurcharanSingh <sing...@gmail.com>

Thanks, Singh ji,

I am asking for the difference between Verbascum chinense (Linnaeus) Santapau & Verbascum coromandelianum (Vahl) Kuntze.

Flora of China mentions Verbascum chinense (Linnaeus) Santapau (syn: Verbascum coromandelianum (Vahl) Kuntze), while POWO reports both of them (Verbascum chinense (Linnaeus) Santapau & Verbascum coromandelianum (Vahl) Kuntze)) as independent species.

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J.M. Garg

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Sep 4, 2020, 2:58:59 AM9/4/20

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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 12:20
Subject: Re: [itpmods:14622] Fwd: Confusion regarding Verbascum chinense

To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Cc: itpmods <itp...@googlegroups.com>

Garg ji

Verbascum coromandelianum (Vahl) Kuntze as understood as distinct species is described in FBI as V. celsioides Benth. It will have 5 stamens but sometimes 4 (hence confusion), lower leaves are pinnatisect , 4-6 inch long (lyrate-pinnatifid, 2-4 inch long in chinense), pedicels 12-20 mm long (only 4-8 mm long in Chinense), filaments woolly (hairy in chinense)

All three are described in FBI, we can always find from there.

Dr. Gurcharan Singh

Retired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Mob: 9810359089

https://www.gurcharanfamily.com/

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Sep 4, 2020, 2:59:29 AM9/4/20

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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 12:28
Subject: Re: [itpmods:14622] Fwd: Confusion regarding Verbascum chinense

To: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>
Cc: itpmods <itp...@googlegroups.com>

Thanks a lot, Singh ji.

I will look at our observations based on this.

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Sep 4, 2020, 4:03:27 AM9/4/20

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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 13:32
Subject: Re: [itpmods:14622] Fwd: Confusion regarding Verbascum chinense
To: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>
Cc: itpmods <itp...@googlegroups.com>

Here is the description from FBI as per IBIS Flora:

Verbascum celsioides Benth.:

Benth, in DC. Prodr. x. 229 ; glandular-pubescent, lower leaves pinnatisect, upper auricled cordate acuminate, flowers racemose.

KUMAON ; at the foot of the hills, Edgeworth. The PUNJAB ; at Hussan, Aitchison.

Stem 2-3 ft. Leaves 4-6 in., sessile or petioled, irregularly toothed and lobulate. Flowers in a long loose raceme ; bracts ovate-lanceolate ; pedicels 1/2-3/4 in. Sepals oblong, obtuse. Corolla 1/2 in. diam. Stamens 4-5 ; filaments woolly.—This species, being sometimes tetrandrous, unites Verbascum with Celsia.

Celsia coromandeliana Vahl in FBI:

Vahl Symb. iii. 79 ; finely pubescent or tomentose, glandular above, root-leaves petioled lyrate-pinnatifid, cauline sessile oblong-ovate toothed, racemes simple or panicled, sepals entire or toothed. Benth, in DC. Prodr. x. 246 ; Roxb. Fl, Ind. iii. 100 ; Wall. Cat. 2631 ; Wight Ill. t. 165, bis f. 1, right hand, and Ic. t. 1406 ; Dalz. & Gibs. Bomb. Fl. 176 ; Boiss. Fl. Orient, iv. 358. C. viscosa, Roth Catal. Bot. ii. 69, and iii. 50 ; Wight in Hook. Journ. Bot: i. (1834) 228, t. 129 ; Nees in Trans. Linn. Soc. xvii. 81, in part.

Throughout INDIA ; from the Punjab to Ceylon and Pegu, ascending to 5000 ft.— DISTRIB. Affghanistan, Ava, China.

Annual. Stem 2-3 ft., stout or slender. Leaves 2-4 in., the large terminal lobe usually oblong, obtuse, toothed. Raceme 1-2 ft. ; pedicels 1/4-1/3 in. ; bracts ovate, shorter. Sepals oblong or ovate. Corolla 1/2 in. diam., yellow. Filaments all hairy. Capsule subglobose, 1/4-1/3 in. diam.

Celsia coromandeliana Vahl in Flora of Bombay Presidency by Cooke:

Vahl, Symb. Bot. v. 3 (1794) p. 79. An annual herb ; stem 2-3 ft. high, hairy, often branched near the top. Leaves : radical 2-4 by 3/4-1.1/2 in., on long petioles, lyrate, compound or pinnatisect, with several small leaflets or segments at the base and a large ovate-oblong subacute terminal lobe ; lower cauline leaves similar but smaller, and with shorter petioles ; upper cauline leaves gradually becoming smaller and sessile, passing into bracts, all coarsely dentate, more or less hairy on both sides. Flowers yellow, in simple or branched terminal racemes 1-2 ft. long ; rhachis glandular-pubescent ; pedicels longer than the calyx, glandular-pubescent ; bracts (or floral leaves) foliaceous, ovate, acute, sessile, gradually becoming smaller upwards. Calyx rather less than 1/4 in. long, deeply divided, glandular-pubescent ; lobes 1/6 in. long, linear-oblong, subacute. Corolla rotate, 1/2 in. in diam. ; lobes 5, rounded. Filaments densely bearded with purple hairs. Ovary globose, glabrous ; style glabrous. Capsules 1/4-1/3 in. in diam., subglobose. Seeds 1/50 in. long, oblong, truncate, warted. Fl. B. I. v. 4, p. 251 ; Dalz. & Gibs. p. 176 ; Wight, Icon. t. 1406 ; Aitch. Pb. & Sind Pl. p. 105 ; Trim. Fl. Ceyl. v. 3, p. 240 ; Woodr, in Journ. Bomb. Nat. v. 12 (1898) p. 174 ; Watt, Dict. Econ. Prod. v. 2, p. 241. Celsia Arcturus, Grah. Cat. p. 141 (not of Jacq.).—Flowers : Jan.-May. VERN. Kutaki. Konkan : Law ! Deccan ; waste places, Dalzell & Gibson ; Poona, Cooke !, Wood¬row ! ; Raighar Fort, Dalzell & Gibson. Gujarat : Woodrow. Sind : Stocks ! — Distrib. Throughout India ; Ceylon, Afghanistan, Ava, China. The plant has some repute in native medicine. See Watt, Dict. Econ. Prod. l. c.

Even from the above, I am not able to bifurcate our posts at Verbascum chinense.

May I request you to have a look at Verbascum chinense and point out one post which is different from others?

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Sep 4, 2020, 4:36:25 AM9/4/20

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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Lalithamba Avadhanam <alali...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 13:48
Subject: Re: [itpmods:14627] Fwd: Confusion regarding Verbascum chinense
To: <itp...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>

Verbascum from Kodaikanal2008; and from verbascum from Nahan (few images look different from typical V.chinense)

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