Nomenclature; botanical names versus common names

[OZmic]

Dear new friends,
Thanks to Dinesh (surname supressed), I think I have found a forum that will stimulate me. I have been waiting for some plant names in Indian scripts to appear on the www since 1995 when I first launched the MMPND. Pankaj (surname supressed) contributed a few but back then the fonts were not available. I had to create images with devices that did not produce the exact words, the result was poor. Since then there has been an abundance of words in various scripts. We are now facing a new problem. Nomenclatural identification.
There is the official nomenclature - taxonomy, and there is the vernacular (common names). Not always matching each other. Photos help but without photo, one needs to start from a strong basis. Hence my work since the 1985's, 1995 online.
My point is: I would suggest that we use the authority names with all botanical names, that is for example Azadirachta excelsa (Jack) M. Jacobs as opposed to just the usual Azadirachta excelsa . Why? because the bot. name on its own may mean different things when used by different authorities. In order to track down the synonyms in the search for a positive ID a complete botanical name is the first strong step. I suggest the first 2 sites in order to find those generally up-to-date complete bot. names:
<  http://www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/Sorting/List_bot.html#sec.02  >
<  http://www.ars-grin.gov/ >
These will also supply bot. synonyms and common names...and more. They are valuable when doing searches online. 10 names will return nothing and one will return hundreds of pages. I have had plenty of experience since 1995. These 2 sites are built on years of experience started long before the internet was invented. Do take advantage of that experience.
There are also other sites dealing with bot. names but usually not as focused on international communication. Many of those are linked in some way to these 2 anyhow.
Regards to all.
Michel

[Dinesh Valke]

Welcome Michel.

I am sure our group will gain knowledge from you, hoping you will also get benefit from the group.

Regards, happy posting,
Dinesh

[Gurcharan Singh]

Thanks Mitchel

Yes I have been using these sites for a long time for sorting out names for some plants. Practicing taxonomy since 1970, I have gone through all: Huge volumes of Index Kewensis and its supplements, Kew database, IPNI, GRIN, Sorting Plant Names and all. In fact I was among the first persons to introduce authority names in scientific names in our group. It was great relief to see the publication of The Plant List in 2010, but unfortunately it has more errors and omissions and unresolved names than one can cope with. I hope with your association with our group we may see it progressing much faster.

    Yes Dinesh ji has done herculean task of compiling local names in regional scripts. We do have a good compilation of local names (but in Roman script) in book "Useful Plants of India" published by CSIR, but names have to be converted into regional scripts.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

 

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 2:21 AM, OZmic <m.por...@bigpond.com> wrote:

[Plant Diversity]

You might also try the Catalogue of Life web site for names and synonyms. It does not have a complete coverage of names, but the ones it has are usually current, give synonymy and often links to further information. http://www.sp2000.org/

Alastair
http://www.facebook.com/PlantDiversity

[Pankaj Oudhia]

Welcome Michel from Pankaj (surname suppressed).

For the said approach, the expenses were much as at that time in my city Raipur not much computer professionals were there. Taking print outs and sending it to you to Austraila through registered surface mail was much expensive for me. 

Now due to Google Unicode, things are becoming simple these days. 

regards

Pankaj Oudhia 

[OZmic]

Hi Alastair,
Catalogue of Life is fine but it contains things that bother me - unresolved taxonomic issues. For example they state that Basella alba and Basella rubra are synonyms. This is obviously not correct if you have ever seen both plants. Have you ever read anywhere that the reddish variety could be a cultivar of B. alba? I haven't, except on the M.M.P.N.D. I would say that Basella rubra is an invalid name but not a synonym of B. alba. Moreover Indian scholars use  Basella alba L. var. rubra (L.) Stewart. Are they wrong? or are they ignored?

[Gurcharan Singh]

I have never cone across the statement that Basella rubra L. is an invalid name. It is only that differences are not strong enough to recognize it an independent species. Since both species were described on the same date in Species Plantarum of Linnaeus, the author who merged these two species chose B. alba L. as correct name and B. rubra L. as synonym. 

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[OZmic]

OK "invalid" may not be the correct term, would you prefer "unresolved"? certainly the synonymy isn't universal around the world.
I have always failed to understand how 2 different plants can have 2 different names which are considered synonyms.
B. alba var. rubra could be a synonym of B. rubra, but B. alba = B. rubra ????
The ARS GRIN database used to have many of those, years ago. Today they have a more logical approach (except in this case).
If I am wrong, so be it, I'll plead guilty to being an "ignoramus", I am certainly not a taxonomist.
My problem is matching common names with 2 different bot. names considered synonyms. One ends up with contradictory names which cannot be synonyms since they mean different things... like "Red-stemmed vine spinach" vs "White-stemmed vine spinach". Names with similar meaning exist in French, German, Spanish etc. for both. My approach is to find a bot. name that suits the horticultural rules.
Basella alba L. 'Rubra'  for all the names referring to the colour red appears logical to me.
Looking quickly at my favourite references:
GRIN has B. alba = B. rubra
Flora Europaea ignored B. rubra
Flora of China considered both as different species, and so do many of the Indian scholars.

[Gurcharan Singh]

Dear Mr. Porcher

The latest online version of Flora China (2003), treats B. rubra L. as synonym of B. alba L.

A agree with you that Basella alba L. 'Rubra' appears to be most logical, but then it accepts merger of B. rubra with B. alba, and merely regards it as cultivar of B. alba L. (not even a variety, which would need formal author citation for the combination). I think there should be no harm in linking all common names associated with B. rubra with B. alba 'Rubra' and those associated with B. alba traditionally with simple B. alba L. That would also go well with p[redominant taxonomic position.

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=103570)

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Vijayasankar]

This kind of confusion occurs when revisioners rely only herbarium specimens. Since the color differences can't be seen in the herbarium, they tend to merge these otherwise distinct (by color) varieties. I don't know if Basella alba var. rubra occurs in wild, if not, it is a mere cultivar which doesn't require a formal combination and author citation. In that case the earlier treatments (B. rubra, B. alba var. rubra) become synonymous to B. alba as treated in Fl.China, GRIN etc.

Another similar situation can be seen in Vitex negundo var. purpurascens Sivar. & Moldenke. This variety can't be distinguished in the herbarium as it differs only by color (rather prominently) from its typica. Any revisioner may tend to merge these two by not finding strong taxonomic characters to distinguish.

There may be several cases where plants distinct in the field but difficult to distinguish in the herbarium (such as Flacourtia indica (Burm.f.) Merr. and F. ramontchi L'Her.). The destiny of the status then becomes a matter of preference / opinion, to merge or to treat as different variety. And always a subject of debate.

I feel if a 'variety' doesn't exist in wild, and originated by cultivation, it should be considered only a cultivar and not a taxonomical variety.

 

Regards 

 

Vijayasankar Raman
National Center for Natural Products Research
University of Mississippi

[OZmic]

Excellent point Vijayasankar. This will have to be kept in mind when we tackle the Citrus. So we all basically agree that "Basella alba L. 'Rubra' " would be a good name. We just need to convince a taxonomist to establish the fact in nomenclature. Meanwhile as Dr Singh said let's compile the relevant names under both B. alba and 'Rubra'. I can post on this forum what I have already in the MMPND file under Basella. So far I have only Assamese, Nepali and Telugu names as far as Indian names are concerned... and they need confirmation by native speakers.

[Ron_Convolvulaceae]

Gurcharan ji

The Plant List in 2010, but unfortunately it has more errors and omissions and unresolved names than one can cope with.

I personally also find The Plant List to be unusable.


OZmic

"I have always failed to understand how 2 different plants can have 2 different names which are considered synonyms.

Because at some point in time the synonyms which are shared were thought to accurately represent both plants...they didn't have the instannt computerized tools available that we enjoy today...and still there are many fuzzy areas to be clarified...

"My problem is matching common names with 2 different bot. names considered synonyms"

A single plant can have a hundred common names because a common name can be applied by anybody...there is no authority to check what a 'true common name' is...

"Basella alba L. 'Rubra'  for all the names referring to the colour red appears logical to me."

I like the approach that the name should accurately describe some aspect of the plant as opposed to commemorative names which serve no practical botanical purpose at all but simply boost someones ego by having a plant named after them...commemorative names have no place in botany from my point of view.

Vijayasankar
"This kind of confusion occurs when revisioners rely only herbarium specimens. Since the color differences can't be seen in the herbarium."

Digital photography of Living Plants is far more valuable than dried out herbarium speciens which distort many features and characteristics leading to big confusion and chaos.


Just some thoughts,

regards,

Ron

On Monday, March 5, 2012 3:51:03 PM UTC-5, OZmic wrote:

Dear new friends,
Thanks to Dinesh (surname supressed), I think I have found a forum that will stimulate me. I have been waiting for some plant names in Indian scripts to appear on the www since 1995 when I first launched the MMPND. Pankaj (surname supressed) contributed a few but back then the fonts were not available. I had to create images with devices that did not produce the exact words, the result was poor. Since then there has been an abundance of words in various scripts. We are now facing a new problem. Nomenclatural identification.
There is the official nomenclature - taxonomy, and there is the vernacular (common names). Not always matching each other. Photos help but without photo, one needs to start from a strong basis. Hence my work since the 1985's, 1995 online.
My point is: I would suggest that we use the authority names with all botanical names, that is for example Azadirachta excelsa (Jack) M. Jacobs as opposed to just the usual Azadirachta excelsa . Why? because the bot. name on its own may mean different things when used by different authorities. In order to track down the synonyms in the search for a positive ID a complete botanical name is the first strong step. I suggest the first 2 sites in order to find those generally up-to-date complete bot. names:

<  http://www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/Sorting/List_bot.html#sec.02 - tracked  >
<  http://www.ars-grin.gov/ - tracked >

[Gurcharan Singh]

Dear Ron 

I fully agree with you, the confusion in the Plant List. Kindly go through my communications to them. I have forwarded them to both of you (Ron and Porcher). I had to use slightly harsher language (not usual with me) mainly out of frustration with the list, which we are all sure would be followed by most of the world but is much short of the standard expected. The irony is the numerous binomials with double author citation but listed without any synonym (not even basionym).

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/