ID for Leh Flowers 8a & 8b

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Nudrat Sayed

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27-Sep-2010, 1:35:34 pm27/09/10
to indiantreepix
Hello All,

Please help with the identification of this plant

Thank you

--
Regards
Dr. Sayed Nudrat Zawar


8b.jpg
8a.jpg

Pankaj Kumar

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27-Sep-2010, 1:43:22 pm27/09/10
to Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
Oxygraphis polypetala
Adding mine from Rohtang Pass

Pankaj

--
***********************************************
"TAXONOMISTS GETTING EXTINCT AND SPECIES DATA DEFICIENT !!"


Pankaj Kumar Ph.D. (Orchidaceae)
Research Associate
Greater Kailash Sacred Landscape Project
Department of Habitat Ecology
Wildlife Institute of India
Post Box # 18
Dehradun - 248001, India

Slide41.JPG

Dinesh Valke

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27-Sep-2010, 1:49:01 pm27/09/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
... not familiar with Himalayan flora ... but finding Pankaj ji's plant different from Nudrat ji's ... the leaves and flower (petals) differ ... could be yet wrong.
Regards.

Pankaj Kumar

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27-Sep-2010, 1:54:44 pm27/09/10
to Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
I imagine if you are looking at the right leaf.
Flora of China writes this as a synonym of

Oxygraphis endlicheri (Walpers) Bennet & Sumer Chandra, Indian
Forester. 108: 374. 1982.

Just for your information.
Pankaj


On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 11:19 PM, Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ... not familiar with Himalayan flora ... but finding Pankaj ji's plant
> different from Nudrat ji's ... the leaves and flower (petals) differ ...
> could be yet wrong.
> Regards.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 11:13 PM, Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Oxygraphis polypetala
>> Adding mine from Rohtang Pass
>>
>> Pankaj
>>
>>
>>

>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Nudrat Sayed <nudra...@gmail.com>

Gurcharan Singh

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27-Sep-2010, 5:03:24 pm27/09/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
Dinesh ji
There is real confusion here. The plant uploaded by Nudrat ji is clearly Ranunculus (see five petals and five petaloid sepals), it is precisely R. pulchellus, common at higher altitudes.

The plant uploaded by Pankaj ji, is however, Oxygraphis polypetala. kindly note nearly 13 or more petals (characteristic of this genus) and nearly orbicular leaves.

Attaching my herbarium specimen  of R. pulchellus from Ladakh.


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 
 

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com> wrote:
I imagine if you are looking at the right leaf.
Flora of China writes this as a synonym of

Oxygraphis endlicheri (Walpers) Bennet & Sumer Chandra, Indian
Forester. 108: 374. 1982.

Just for your information.
Pankaj


On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 11:19 PM, Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ... not familiar with Himalayan flora ... but finding Pankaj ji's plant
> different from Nudrat ji's ... the leaves and flower (petals) differ ...
> could be yet wrong.
> Regards.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 11:13 PM, Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Oxygraphis polypetala
>> Adding mine from Rohtang Pass
>>
>> Pankaj
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Nudrat Sayed <nudrat.cat@gmail.com>
Ranunculus-pulchellus-Ladakh.jpg

Pankaj Kumar

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27-Sep-2010, 5:14:39 pm27/09/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
I see the point there. I am wrong. Sorry for the mistake and thanks
for correcting.
Regards
Pankaj

Pankaj Kumar

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27-Sep-2010, 5:34:24 pm27/09/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
I may be wrong though. This sketch is from eflora of China.
foc06-392.gif

Pankaj Kumar

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27-Sep-2010, 5:33:09 pm27/09/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
On second thought, I doubt your plant to be Ranunculus pulchellus.
Leaf margin is supposed to be lobed in pulchellus and the flower is
supposed to be solitary, but yours is entire with branched
inflorescence.
I may be wrong though, but I thought your plant could be new record
for India, Ranunculus nephelogenes var. longicaulis.
Pankaj

Gurcharan Singh

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27-Sep-2010, 6:08:18 pm27/09/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
Flora of British India places this species in a group with entire leaves with a note sometimes lobed in R. pulchellus. As such entire leaves are a rule and lobed an aberration. I have many more specimens  of this from Ladakh near Leh. Flora of China also writes leaves sometimes three-lobed. Please read the key from 64 to 67 carefully.


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 


Pankaj Kumar

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27-Sep-2010, 6:56:28 pm27/09/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
I am hesitant to agree with this. I am talking about your herbarium
and not Nuds plant!! I still say, I may be wrong......

Key in flora of China says:

Stems 15–20 cm; blades of basal leaves ovate, elliptic, or obovate,
base broadly cuneate or cuneate, 1–3-denticulate on each side....R.
pulchellus

Blade of basal leaf not divided; Petal apex rounded; leaf blade of
basal leaf ovate, narrowly ovate, oblong, or
linear-lanceolate..........R. nephelogenes.

Pankaj

Gurcharan Singh

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27-Sep-2010, 7:24:56 pm27/09/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
Thanks Pankaj ji
What a coincidence. After reading your earlier mails I went through the whole key starting from begining and imagine where I reached: R. nephelogenes var. longicaulis, the variety with petals almost equalling sepals. The description matched. I went back to Flora of British India India and found Ranunculus longicaulis listed as a synonym of R. pulchellus

So following a more recent publication, Nudrat ji's plant is Ranunculus nephelogenes var. longicaulis


Thanks for your critical analysis which led me to rethink and research further,

THIS IS ONE VERY GOOD EXAMPLE OF HOW INTERACTIONS ON THE GROUP CAN LEAD TO FRUITFUL RESULTS.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Pankaj Kumar

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27-Sep-2010, 7:44:29 pm27/09/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
Thanks a lot for resolving the issue finally. One of my biggest
problem is, I dont get taxonomically satisfied so easily, and
secondly, I dont start well if it is not an orchid.
Pankaj

--

Gurcharan Singh

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27-Sep-2010, 8:01:51 pm27/09/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
Let us wish we have many more such fruitful interactions. Can you please check from Indian revision of Ranunculaceae (Fascicles or any other recent one) the status of this taxon? Obviously FBI considered this as mere variation of R. pulchellus.


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Pankaj Kumar

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27-Sep-2010, 8:10:10 pm27/09/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
I will try to check, but unfortunately, we dont have all th fascicles
here at WII. Will check and let you know soon.
Regards
Pankaj

Pankaj Kumar

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27-Sep-2010, 8:15:19 pm27/09/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
I think I found something exactly what you are looking for.
So our plant is

Ranunculus pulchellus C.A. Mey. var. longicaulis (C.A. Mey.) Hook. f. & Thomson

Please find it attached.
Regards
Pankaj

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 5:42 AM, Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think I found something exactly what you are looking for.
> So our plant is
>
> Ranunculus pulchellus C.A. Mey. var. longicaulis (C.A. Mey.) Hook. f. & Thomson
>
> Please find it attached.

Gurcharan Singh

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27-Sep-2010, 8:36:38 pm27/09/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
Thanks a lot Pankaj ji for such a useful revision of Indian Ranunculus

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Pankaj Kumar

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27-Sep-2010, 9:09:45 pm27/09/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
You are welcome!!

Satish Phadke

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28-Sep-2010, 9:53:49 am28/09/10
to Pankaj Kumar, Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
Gurcharan ji and Pankaj ji
Though everything in the discussions was difficult to digest at one go we are enjoyed it.
We are interested in many such informative discussions.
Dr Phadke

Gurcharan Singh

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28-Sep-2010, 12:48:32 pm28/09/10
to Satish Phadke, Pankaj Kumar, Dinesh Valke, Nudrat Sayed, indiantreepix
Satish ji
That is why I love this group. The discussions are often intense and so fruitful, and results achieved so fast. In this particular case Pankaj ji spent whole night awake and I the day time to achieve a mutually agreed identification.

It is good that all of us want to get satisfied to agree to a conclusion.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Nudrat Sayed

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28-Sep-2010, 2:09:25 pm28/09/10
to Gurcharan Singh, Satish Phadke, Pankaj Kumar, Dinesh Valke, indiantreepix
Hello All,

Thank you all for helping with the identification of the plant.

I am indebted to you all 
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