Scrophulariaceae fortnight :: Lindernia crustacea at Andheri :: DV06

[Dinesh Valke]

Scrophulariaceae fortnight dog flower family Lindernia crustacea (L.) F. Muell. ... also placed in: Linderniaceae Plantaginaceae Veronicaceae

at MIDC Andheri on 24 AUG 07

Regards. Dinesh

[Tabish]

This plant, with distinctly winged calyx, should be Torenia lindernioides which is endemic to Western Ghats. Please have a look at the attached paper. It is closely similar to Torenia crustacea (Syn: Lindernia crustacea) which has unwinged calyx.

 According to the paper:

"Torenia lindernioides has a distinctly winged calyx which completely encloses the mature capsule. The capsule is elongated, lelliptic in outline and narrowed at the top. Lindernia crustacea, however, has sepals that are, at most, slightly thickened in the middle and never invest the capsule completely."

   Tabish

[J.M. Garg]

I think Sunoj ji may finally resolve this issue being an author of 'Re-establishment of the overlooked species Torenia godefroyi (Linderniaceae), and notes on the identity of T. lindernioides' (I am unable to get a hand on it from the net)

Thanks a lot, Tabish ji, for the inputs.

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

[Dinesh Valke]

Many thanks Tabish for scrutinizing the species - Torenia lindernioides and Torenia crustacea.

Thanks Garg ji; I am revising IDs of my observations of Torenia crustacea (synonym: Lindernia crustacea) accordingly.

Regards.

Dinesh

[J.M. Garg]

Pl. wait for inputs from Sunoj ji

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/6cb58e80-a7d7-4029-af5c-c82396df64b7n%40googlegroups.com.

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

[Dinesh Valke]

Yes sure, Garg ji, thanks.

I realized later that you are pointing to further study by Sunoj j.

Regards.

Dinesh

[Tabish]

Garg ji,

  Attached is the paper you were looking for.

   Tabish

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www.flowersofindia.net
The waterhole of flower lovers

[Tabish]

Just to point out that POWO treats Torenia godefroyi and Torenia lindernioides as distinct species, with Torenia godefroyi confied to  Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, and Torenia lindernioides confined to the Western Ghats.

   Tabish

-------------------------------------------
www.flowersofindia.net
The waterhole of flower lovers

On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 11:35 AM J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Tabish ji,

So let us keep it as Torenia lindernioides 

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

[Dinesh Valke]

Thank you very Tabish for this pointer.

Thanks Garg ji.

I will do changes in my notes in flickr.

Regards.

Dinesh

[J.M. Garg]

Wait for some more time. 

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

[J.M. Garg]

However, I am not satisfied with the id as Torenia godefroyi or Torenia lindernioides (with restricted range in Western Ghats and Cambodia).

What about other observations from other areas at Lindernia crustacea like 
SK 3258 24 December 2021
Lindernia sp. (1) from Hooghly 15/8/12 SK-1
Lindernia sp. (2) from Hooghly 15/8/12 SK-2
Lindernia crustacea (L.) F.Muel collected from Kamrup district (Metro), Assam
Scrophulariaceae Fortnight: Lindernia crustacea from Kaithal- NS 29
Scrophulariaceae Fortnight: a guest on Lindernia crustacea (L.) F.Muell. : sk03
PM1 22-09-2017 Id confirmation from chandigarh. Is it Lindernia crustacea? 
Torenia thouarsii (Cham. & Schltdl.) Kuntze (accepted name) ?? 
for id. request. BRS 522
Torenia crustacea (L.) Cham. & Schltdl.
Validation of Lindernia 
Herb for ID from Jim-Corbett Uttarakhand-GS10032022-2

In view of the above observations, I feel, we follow the broader circumspection with all these observations as Lindernia crustacea (as we are following now).

In view Dinesh ji's plant and other similar observations from Western Ghats may also be retained as Lindernia crustacea only. 

On Fri, 7 Oct 2022 at 22:00, Tabish <tab...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

With regards,
J.M.Garg

[Dinesh Valke]

By now, I have made changes to my notes in flickr.

As far as the characteristic of "distinctly winged calyx" goes, I can see it in my posted plants.

In the first photo, we do see a capsule in the centre; however the sepals are not completely enclosing the mature capsule.

In Garg ji's listed posts, the sepals seem to be more blunt than distinctly winged ... as such would resolve to Lindernia crustacea. I am not good at this assertion. So I hope that Sunoj ji will provide his comments soon and help resolve the ID.

Regards.

Dinesh

[Dinesh Valke]

At iNaturalist, I suggested ID of Torenia lindernioides C.J.Saldanha for two of my observations: 1) of MIDC Andheri, and 2) of Nagla forest.

Aaratrik Pal, M.Sc., University of North Bengal, Department of Botany disagrees with the ID, and asserts on Torenia crustacea (L.) Cham. & Schltdl.

He says:

"POWO is updating daily, and the above information about T. godefroyi have not been updated yet. Both are synonymous and is also distributed in West Bengal."

Aaratrik Pal has written many articles related to Torenia spp.

Regards.

Dinesh.

[Tabish]

Torenia crustacea (Syn: Lindernia crustacea) is a species different from Torenia lindernioides, and has a wider distribution. It is found in the Himalayas, East India, and probably also in Western Ghats. The key involving these species is listed in Saldanha's paper that I sent.

   Tabish

-------------------------------------------
www.flowersofindia.net
The waterhole of flower lovers

[J.M. Garg]

My personal feeling after going through all the observations in our site is that keys given in both publications are very sketchy (publications only based on specimens from Western Ghats) and if wider studies are conducted based on all India specimens and those from SE Asia, it may come out to be one species only (may be with a few varieties as it was widely accepted earlier).   

Just to give an example, pl. see the post from Saroj ji from Nepal: SK 3258 24 December 2021 (Nepal does not show any distribution of Torenia lindernioides).
In view of the above, I feel we follow the broader look with all these observations as Lindernia crustacea (as we are following now).

--

With regards,
J.M.Garg

[Tabish]

Dear Dinesh,

   I think there is some confusion here. T. godefroyi is separated from T. crustacea one some characteristics, one of which is the distinctly winged calyx. I am only saying that this plant should not be T. crustacea as it shows winged calyx. If T. lindernioides is synonymous with T. godefroy, it may be so, I don't know - I don't have any description, pics, herbarium pics of  T. godefroy to compare with. 

   Tabish

-------------------------------------------
www.flowersofindia.net
The waterhole of flower lovers

[Dinesh Valke]

But Saldanha's article clearly says Torenia lindernioides is distributed in Western Ghats, and is often confused with the wider distributed Lindernia crustacea.

As such Torenia lindernioides is not distributed in Nepal.

Regards.

Dinesh

[J.M. Garg]

I am saying this as I am unable to distinguish Dinesh ji's plant from western ghats from those from East India, Himalayas and North India. All of these have winged calyxes like that of Dinesh ji's plant. 

Pl. see 

SK 3258 24 December 2021
Lindernia sp. (1) from Hooghly 15/8/12 SK-1
Lindernia sp. (2) from Hooghly 15/8/12 SK-2
Lindernia crustacea (L.) F.Muel collected from Kamrup district (Metro), Assam
Scrophulariaceae Fortnight: Lindernia crustacea from Kaithal- NS 29
Scrophulariaceae Fortnight: a guest on Lindernia crustacea (L.) F.Muell. : sk03
PM1 22-09-2017 Id confirmation from chandigarh. Is it Lindernia crustacea? 
Torenia thouarsii (Cham. & Schltdl.) Kuntze (accepted name) ?? 
for id. request. BRS 522
Torenia crustacea (L.) Cham. & Schltdl.
Validation of Lindernia 
Herb for ID from Jim-Corbett Uttarakhand-GS10032022-2

So it has to be Lindernia crustacea only.

--

With regards,
J.M.Garg

[Tabish]

Dear Dinesh,

   It is true that Saldanha's article clearly says Torenia lindernioides is distributed in Western Ghats. But what M. G. Prasad, R. K. Roy and P. Sunojkumar­ (Nordic Journal of Botany 35: 45–47, 2017) published says that Torenia lindernioides is the same as Torenia godefroyi. So, now Torenia godefroyi (according to these authors) is distributed in Cambodia and Western Ghats. So, the Indian distribution of this plant is still restricted to Western Ghats. Whether you call it Torenia lindernioides or Torenia godefroyi is a different matter.

   Tabish

-------------------------------------------
www.flowersofindia.net
The waterhole of flower lovers

[Dinesh Valke]

Dear Tabish, I agree with you on the distinctly winged calyx, and therefore rushed to upload my observation in iNaturalist.

But there the suggested ID is not agreed upon. I have given the link to this discussion.

All of the other observations at eFI related to Lindernia crustacea do not have distinctly winged calyx and therefore will remain as Lindernia crustacea.

I have sent a personal mail to Aaratrik Pal, requesting him to give his views regarding this discussion.

Regards.

Dinesh

[J.M. Garg]

Hi, Dinesh ji,

How do you say "All of the other observations at eFI related to Lindernia crustacea do not have distinctly winged calyx" ?

I feel otherwise that most of the observations at eFI related to Lindernia crustacea also have distinctly winged calyx. 
Pl. see one e.g. SK 3258 24 December 2021

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

[Aaratrik Pal]

Torenia godefroyi and T. lindernoides are synonymous. This species differs from T. crustacea by having prominent ribbed calyx and the calyx is enclosing the capsule when mature. T. godefroyi mostly show axillary flowers and the flowers are more whitish with tint of magenta. I'm attaching a paper related to T. godefroyi. The image in the paper hopefully can help.
 Thanks and regards,

Aaratrik 

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks a lot, Aratrik ji,

If you see Dinesh ji's plant, the fruiting calyx does not cover the capsule completely. 

So it has to be Lindernia crustacea only, as you confirmed earlier to Dinesh ji.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/9b8f69bf-ef09-467a-abd2-0a75cc9ff7bfn%40googlegroups.com.

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

[J.M. Garg]

Hi, Aaratrik ji,

Can any of the following be Torenia godefroyi: 

Scrophulariaceae Fortnight: Lindernia crustacea from Kaithal- NS 29 

PM1 22-09-2017 Id confirmation from chandigarh. Is it Lindernia crustacea?

Or are the fruits still immature to say anything? 

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

[Aaratrik Pal]

No, both represent T. crustacea. I don't remember any photograph of T. godefroyi from Southern India.

[Dinesh Valke]

Garg ji, when I go through photographs posted in  SK 3258 24 December 2021 that show calyx, they do not seem to me as "distinctly winged" or ribbed. They look to me rather as separated sepals. That is how I perceive.

Regards.

Dinesh

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Aaratrik ji

--
With regards,
J. M. Garg

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/74171bd4-3e44-43fc-9fad-67ffb81a30cbn%40googlegroups.com.

[J.M. Garg]

Hi, Dinesh ji,

As all has now been identified as Lindernia crustacea, it has to be the same i.e. with the winged calyx.

--

With regards,
J.M.Garg

[Tabish]

Let me summarize my view here:

•   Saldanha (1966) named Torenia lindernioides which, according to his paper, is endemic to the Western Ghats, and differs from Torenia crustacea in having a prominently winged calyx.
•  Prasad, Roy, Sunojkumar (2017) re-established Torenia godefroyi, and put Torenia lindernioides as its synonym. Torenia godefroyi was separated from Torenia crustacea in having a prominently winged calyx, among other characters. Torenia godefroyi was earlier known only from Indo-China region (SE Asia). So, according to this paper, the revised distribution of Torenia godefroyi is Indo-China region and Western Ghats.
  
• So my question is, where is this Torenia godefroyi from Western Ghats with prominently winged calyx? Don't we have any image of it? Or are we misidentifying some of its images as Torenia crustacea?
  

   I think some thinking is required on it, instead of this rapid discussion.

        Tabish

-------------------------------------------
www.flowersofindia.net
The waterhole of flower lovers

[Aaratrik Pal]

There should be good populations of T. godefroyi in Western Ghats, but some how being overlooked. I'm attaching an article link, where T. godefroyi is reported from Telangana state with photographs.

Additions to the Flora of Telangana state of India, with notes on the phytogeographical importance - Gollamandala - 2022 - Feddes Repertorium - Wiley Online Library

[J.M. Garg]

I feel along with calyx, fruiting calyx completely covering the capsule in Torenia godefroyi is very important. It is very very difficult to judge only based on winged calyx.

--
With regards,
J. M. Garg

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Aaratrik ji

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With regards,
J. M. Garg

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/a9a9622d-deca-4c08-bbbe-6d05410ad7f3n%40googlegroups.com.

[J.M. Garg]

--
With regards,
J. M. Garg

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Oct, 2022, 9:09 am
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:434054] Re: Scrophulariaceae fortnight :: Lindernia crustacea at Andheri :: DV06
To: Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com>

It can be seen in two publications. But I have doubts, if this will stand scrutiny of time. If somebody does the revision of Torenia, these will at most be treated as a variety of T.crustacea.

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With regards,
J. M. Garg

On Sun, 9 Oct, 2022, 8:45 am Dinesh Valke, <dinesh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Garg ji. Now let us hope someone get photo(s) of Torenia godefroyi.

Regards.

Dinesh

[Aaratrik Pal]

Here is a photograph of T. godefroyi with fruits and flowers.

Torenia godefroyi on February 14, 2022 at 07:24 PM by Aaratrik Pal · iNaturalist

Thanks,

Aaratrik

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks a lot, Sunoj ji

--
With regards,
J. M. Garg

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Sunojkumar P <>
Date: Sun, 9 Oct, 2022, 10:36 pm
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:434054] Re: Scrophulariaceae fortnight :: Lindernia crustacea at Andheri :: DV06

To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>

Sir

This is Torenia crustacia

sunoj

Dr. Sunojkumar.  P
Associate Professor
Department of Botany
University of Calicut
Kerala 673 635
INDIA
Mob 91 - 09446891708

[Dinesh Valke]

Many thanks to Sunoj ji.

Regards.

Dinesh