SK1026 18 MAR-2018

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Saroj Kasaju

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Mar 18, 2018, 12:27:51 PM3/18/18
to efloraofindia, J.M. Garg
Dear Members 

Location: Mudkhu, Kathmandu, Nepal 
Altitude: 5000 ft.
Date: 16 March 2018
Habit : Wild

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju
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J.M. Garg

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Mar 19, 2018, 9:14:54 AM3/19/18
to efloraofindia, Saroj Kasaju
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Saroj Kasaju

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Mar 19, 2018, 9:57:08 AM3/19/18
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Did not find match.

Is it the same :  SK999 7 MAR-2018   ??

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

J.M. Garg

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Mar 27, 2018, 7:34:13 AM3/27/18
to efloraofindia, Saroj Kasaju
Any idea about it ?
--
With regards,
J.M.Garg

'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'

Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia

For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- around 2800 members & 2,65,000 messages on 31.3.17) or Efloraofindia website (with a species database of more than 12,000 species & 2,50,000 images).

The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.

Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'.

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J.M. Garg

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Mar 28, 2018, 6:06:58 AM3/28/18
to samicnh, efloraofindia, Saroj Kasaju
Thanks a lot, Samiran ji. 

On Wed 28 Mar, 2018, 11:50 AM Samiran Panday, <sam...@gmail.com> wrote:
May be the seedling of Ainsliaea..  or some allied genus of Asteraceae..
--
Dr. Samiran Panday
Research Scholar
Central National Herbarium
Botanical Survey of India
Howrah- 711 103
West Bengal, India.
Mob. No. 09163687754


Saroj Kasaju

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Mar 28, 2018, 9:38:11 AM3/28/18
to J.M. Garg, samicnh, efloraofindia
Dear All,

Definitely not  Ainsliaea listed in Nepal but could be 
some  Asteraceae .

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

Saroj Kasaju

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Apr 28, 2019, 12:43:38 PM4/28/19
to J.M. Garg, samicnh, efloraofindia
Finally! After follow-up for almost a year and half!!
Location : Pilot baba Ashram, Bhaktapur 
Date : 28 April 2019
Elevation : 1637 m.
Habit : Wild 

Again a new addition to the efi ?

Ixeridium sagittarioides (C.B.Clarke) Pak & Kawano
Syn : Ixeris sagittarioides (C.B.Clarke) Stebbins

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

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J.M. Garg

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May 3, 2019, 3:37:05 AM5/3/19
to Saroj Kasaju, samicnh, efloraofindia
Thanks, Saroj ji, for the great follow-up. 

--
With regards,
J. M. Garg

Saroj Kasaju

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May 3, 2019, 4:20:25 AM5/3/19
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, samicnh
Thank you Mr. Garg.

Saroj Kasaju
--
Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

surajitno...@gmail.com

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Jun 28, 2021, 10:53:31 AM6/28/21
to efloraofindia
I beg to differ Sir.
In the flower pic no. 8, outer phyllaries looks markedly larger than what FoC describes for the entire Genus. There is no mention that phyllaries do have scarious margins.
Please pardon me if I am wrong, for, I do not know the size of the flower or the phyllaries. May I ask what was the approx length of involucre? 

C.B.Clarke Ixeridium sagittarioides.jpg
FoC Ixeridium sagittarioides.jpg
FBI Ixeridium sagittarioides.jpg
FoC Ixeridium.jpg

Saroj Kasaju

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Jun 28, 2021, 11:15:17 AM6/28/21
to efloraindia

Thank you Surajit JI.
Did not find any other matching : Ixeris

Saroj Kasaju


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surajit koley

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Jun 28, 2021, 11:40:09 AM6/28/21
to efloraofindia
Sir,

I may be wrong, but please make sure of the ID. This will help me immensely even if I am proved wrong.
Please check GBIF specimens, your flower seems to be way larger than those specimens from Nepal.
It is possible that your 2nd set in the thread, i.e., the flowering set is of different species.

Thank you
With regards
surajit

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Saroj Kasaju

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Jun 28, 2021, 11:48:17 AM6/28/21
to efloraindia, surajit koley, J.M. Garg
Actually Ixeridium sagittarioides is from exactly the same location after flowering and the earlier one 
is from a different location which seem slightly different as you said. Need to explore. May be 
Mr. Garg could help in this matter. Another one from a different location : Ixeridium sagittarioides 
Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju


surajit koley

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Jun 28, 2021, 11:56:20 AM6/28/21
to Saroj Kasaju, efloraindia, J.M. Garg
Yes,Sir, I have seen your other uploads too. Since your pictures are of higher resolution it is difficult for me to guess the sizes (of flowers, phyllaries etc.). Only you can determine the sizes and let us know the true identity.

But, first, I would like to correct myself - the genus Ixeridium itself features scarious phyllaries, that is why FoC didn't mention it in the species page.

Thank you
With regards
surajit

surajit koley

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Jun 29, 2021, 3:54:56 AM6/29/21
to Saroj Kasaju, efloraindia, J.M. Garg
Saroj Ji, I started with the Taraxacum of FoN, this morning - linked with KEW, GBIF, FoC, and one or two other sites -


Taraxacum minutilobum Popov ex Kovalevsk.http://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:254017-1http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=250097551
Taraxacum amabile Soesthttp://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:252700-1
Taraxacum elegans Soesthttp://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:77137271-1
Taraxacum eriopodum DChttp://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:253281-1http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=242351291
Taraxacum parvulum DC. (T. himalaicum)http://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:254257-1http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=242351336https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/gallery?taxon_key=5394402
Taraxacum lanigerum Soesthttp://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:253752-1http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=242351312
Taraxacum mitalii Soesthttp://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:254023-1http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=242425872https://www.gbif.org/species/5393986
Taraxacum monochlamydeum Hand.-Mazz.http://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:254035-1http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=317655https://data.rbge.org.uk/search/herbarium/?specimen_num=509181&cfg=zoom.cfg&filename=E00489557.zip
Taraxacum nepalense Soesthttp://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:254097-1https://www.nepjol.info/index.php/hebids/article/download/36123/28179/
Taraxacum officinale F.H.Wigg.http://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:1003018-2http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=220013281
Taraxacum pseudostenoceras Soesthttp://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:254499-1
Taraxacum sikkimense Hand.-Mazz.http://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:254739-1http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=242351351
Taraxacum staintonii Soesthttp://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:254792-1
Taraxacum tibetanum Hand.-Mazz.http://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:254973-1http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=242425880https://www.gbif.org/species/5393973

Now, I will propose (not suggest!) an impossible idea!
Please check the urls (also attached screenshots) below - 
  1. https://data.rbge.org.uk/search/herbarium/?specimen_num=509181&cfg=zoom.cfg&filename=E00489557.zip (you ca download HR image file)
  2. https://science.mnhn.fr/institution/mnhn/collection/p/item/p02508509 (click on the image and see HR format)
In your uploads, there is picture showing hint of partly lobed or runcinate leaf. Unfortunately I could not find any description of the species. Distribution is a major concern, but FoC admits of report of the species there.

This much for now.
FRANCE Taraxacum monochlamydeum 2.jpg
KEW Taraxacum monochlamydeum 2.jpg
KEW Taraxacum monochlamydeum 3.jpg
KEW Taraxacum monochlamydeum.jpg

surajit koley

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Jun 29, 2021, 8:35:57 AM6/29/21
to Saroj Kasaju, efloraindia, J.M. Garg
Saroj ji, please forget Taraxacum, usually they have broad/wide, even 3 cm., capitulum, whereas your species is not. It is something else, and I amy find the id.

Saroj Kasaju

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Jun 29, 2021, 8:48:11 AM6/29/21
to surajit koley, efloraindia, J.M. Garg
Ok Surajit Ji.  I was wondering too !
Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

surajit koley

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Jun 29, 2021, 11:18:25 AM6/29/21
to Saroj Kasaju, efloraindia, J.M. Garg
Chondrilla nudicaulis L. from The Linnean Collections - http://linnean-online.org/46199/.and http://linnean-online.org/9672/
Launaea nudicaulis is not distributed in Nepal (could not find any data)
Yet, I pasted the links to give an idea of the variability of the leaves and an idea about the involucre.

Launaea procumbens is very variable and similar to L. nudicaulis.(L. nudicaulis is extremely variable morphological characters, even in capitula too)..

Your plant might be L. procumbens.

Thank you,
Regards
surajit
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Saroj Kasaju

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Jun 29, 2021, 11:28:20 AM6/29/21
to surajit koley, efloraindia, J.M. Garg
I guess the key factor is sagitate single leaf which is distinct in this case!
Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

surajit koley

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Jun 29, 2021, 12:17:27 PM6/29/21
to Saroj Kasaju, efloraindia, J.M. Garg
Agreed, Sir, that's why I said "might be", meaning it's not the end of my suggestion!

Thank you
Regards
surajit

Saroj Kasaju

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Jun 29, 2021, 12:38:06 PM6/29/21
to surajit koley, efloraindia, J.M. Garg
L. procumbens leaves are completely different !
Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

surajit koley

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Jun 30, 2021, 1:32:40 AM6/30/21
to Saroj Kasaju, efloraindia, J.M. Garg
Sorry, Sir, I was stressing on involucre, completely overlooking those erect sagittate leaves. Yes, you are absolutely correct.

Thank you
Regards
surajit

Saroj Kasaju

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Jun 30, 2021, 3:51:01 AM6/30/21
to surajit koley, efloraindia, J.M. Garg

Thank you Surajit Ji,
So we shall take it as it is ?

Saroj Kasaju

surajit koley

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Jun 30, 2021, 9:22:00 AM6/30/21
to Saroj Kasaju, efloraindia, J.M. Garg
Since when did the forum allow identifying a species only by its leaves, Sir ji?

I think, in present circumstances, probabilities are -
  1. While describing the leaves correctly, Hooker, Clarke, FoC all went wrong describing the flower of Lactuca sagittarioides,.... (assuming your identification is correct !!!)
  2. Though presently Lactuca sagittarioides is synonymous with Ixeridium sagittarioides, may be in future some botanist would separate them.
  3. the leaves and the flowers in your uploads are of two different species
  4. the flowers and the leaves are of same species but the species is mis-identified (there is a picture of another species to give an idea what a flower of Ixeridium would look like - neither tubular nor campanulate, rather tends to rotate form after fully openning)
What do you say, Sir ji?

Thank you
Regards
surajit

J.M. Garg

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Jul 8, 2021, 1:09:29 PM7/8/21
to surajit koley, Saroj Kasaju, efloraindia
Thanks, Surajit ji and Saroj ji, for the detailed discussions.
Flora of China says for Ixeridium sagittarioides (C. B. Clarke) Pak & Kawano
Capitula with 8-16 florets; peduncle wiry. Involucre narrowly cylindric, 7-8 mm. Outer phyllaries ovate to lanceolate, apex acute; inner phyllaries ca. 8[-12], apex acute. It also says for genus Ixeridium (A. Gray) Tzvelev: Phyllaries in few series, margin narrow and scarious; outer phyllaries few, very short (at most ca. 2 mm, usually less), ± unequal; inner phyllaries 5 or (7 or)8, linear-lanceolate, equal. 

Also I personally feel posted plant matches GBIF specimens from Nepal and Bhutan except for some outer phyllaries being comparatively larger in proportion to inner phyllaries as Surajit ji has also pointed. I did not find a single specimen in GBIF from China. Maybe we can further explore dimensions given in our own floras.


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With regards,
J.M.Garg

surajit koley

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Jul 9, 2021, 1:47:11 AM7/9/21
to J.M. Garg, Saroj Kasaju, efloraindia
Nepal also offers Senecio spp. having sagittate leaves, may worth giving a try - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317939369_The_identity_of_Senecio_topkegolensis_Asteraceae_Senecioneae_from_Nepal

surajit koley

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Jul 9, 2021, 1:54:18 AM7/9/21
to J.M. Garg, Saroj Kasaju, efloraindia
I did not mean Saroj ji's species equals the species linked in the paper I sent just minutes ago. 

What I mean is that the uploaded species. in this thread, can be a Senecio if flower and leaves belong to the same plant. 

Thank you
With regards
surajit

Saroj Kasaju

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Jul 9, 2021, 3:27:12 AM7/9/21
to surajit koley, J.M. Garg, efloraindia
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