Morni Hills 2014: Geranium mascatense:: NS Feb 05
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Nidhan Singh
Feb 27, 2014, 3:41:59 AM2/27/14
to indiantreepix
Dear All,
This beautiful Geranium..having deep coloured centre of corolla was also encountered during my recent visit to Morni Hills..I hope this should be Geranium mascatense Boiss.
--
Regards,
Dr. Nidhan Singh
Regards,
Dr. Nidhan Singh
Assistant Professor
Department of Botany
I.B. (PG) College
Panipat-132103 Haryana
Ph.: 09416371227
Department of Botany
I.B. (PG) College
Panipat-132103 Haryana
Ph.: 09416371227
chrischa...@btinternet.com
Nov 19, 2016, 11:43:07 AM11/19/16
to efloraofindia
There seems to be different interpretations of Geranium mascatense and G.ocellatum. This specimen does not show gaps between petals as is usually the case in photos of plants of G.mascatense in the Gulf - see below.
'The Plant List' gives G.ocellatum as a synonym of the former. Whereas Nasir in 'Flora of Pakistan' separates the two. Stewart does not list G,mascatense
at all but has G.ocellatum var. himalaicum as common from 300-1800m. Nasir, on the other hand, says that G.mascatense is only sparingly recorded from Pakistan and then only in Baluchistan.
G.mascatense is recorded from Africa and the Gulf - so Baluchistan fits OK with this. Collet had G.ocellatum in hill districts of N.India from same altitudes as Stewart. IF they constitute separate species, I find it somewhat surprising to have G.mascatense in the Himalayan foothills.
I do not know on whose authority G.ocellatum has been sunk into G.mascatense. According to Nasir the species are very close but G.mascatense has puberulous mericarps - translating that into English: in Geranium the dry fruits consists of 5 'mericarps' each with a seed, which may be explosively dispersed though sometimes remains inside) the 'puberulous' part means downy with very short soft hairs. So clearly, unless one can observe the fruits of a geranium this characteristic cannot be ascertained. No doubt Nasir knew of other differences.
Taking a quick look at the images for G.mascastense available on the internet, most show marked gaps between the petals (as do the images taken in Muscat in the posting above this) compared with images of specimens from the foothills of the NW Himalaya (incl. the one near Chakki) which may constitute sufficient to justify them as separate taxa but without careful study of the whole plants cannot speculate if that is sufficient (or a consistent difference) to justify separation as varieties, subspecies or at the species level but the geographic/altitudinal/climatic differences may be of significance.
Cannot comment further at this stage.
Gurcharan Singh
Nov 19, 2016, 2:10:35 PM11/19/16
to chrischa...@btinternet.com, efloraofindia
I don't have my literature here in USA but looking at Tropicos, there combinations under G. mascatense were proposed as early as 1976 by Raizada in Suppl. Duthie's Fl. Upper Gangetic Plain 4: 36, but I don't find any reference merging G. ocellatum proper under G. mascatense. It would be interesting to look up treatment in Flora of India Series, published after Raizada.
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired Associate ProfessorSGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089
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C CHADWELL
Nov 19, 2016, 2:26:13 PM11/19/16
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Dear Dr Singh
Thanks for drawing my attention to this - I tend not to pay much attention to all the different name changes for
most plants.
I see there is a var. himalaicum, which perhaps exhibits the closer/overlapping petals cf. the forms from the Gulf
From: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>
To: "chrischa...@btinternet.com" <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2016, 19:10
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257138] Re: Morni Hills 2014: Geranium mascatense:: NS Feb 05
I don't have my literature here in USA but looking at Tropicos, there combinations under G. mascatense were proposed as early as 1976 by Raizada in Suppl. Duthie's Fl. Upper Gangetic Plain 4: 36, but I don't find any reference merging G. ocellatum proper under G. mascatense. It would be interesting to look up treatment in Flora of India Series, published after Raizada.
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired Associate ProfessorSGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089
There seems to be different interpretations of Geranium mascatense and G.ocellatum. This specimen does not show gaps between petals as is usually the case in photos of plants of G.mascatense in the Gulf - see below.'The Plant List' gives G.ocellatum as a synonym of the former. Whereas Nasir in 'Flora of Pakistan' separates the two. Stewart does not list G,mascatenseat all but has G.ocellatum var. himalaicum as common from 300-1800m. Nasir, on the other hand, says that G.mascatense is only sparingly recorded from Pakistan and then only in Baluchistan.G.mascatense is recorded from Africa and the Gulf - so Baluchistan fits OK with this. Collet had G.ocellatum in hill districts of N.India from same altitudes as Stewart. IF they constitute separate species, I find it somewhat surprising to have G.mascatense in the Himalayan foothills.I do not know on whose authority G.ocellatum has been sunk into G.mascatense. According to Nasir the species are very close but G.mascatense has puberulous mericarps - translating that into English: in Geranium the dry fruits consists of 5 'mericarps' each with a seed, which may be explosively dispersed though sometimes remains inside) the 'puberulous' part means downy with very short soft hairs. So clearly, unless one can observe the fruits of a geranium this characteristic cannot be ascertained. No doubt Nasir knew of other differences.
Taking a quick look at the images for G.mascastense available on the internet, most show marked gaps between the petals (as do the images taken in Muscat in the posting above this) compared with images of specimens from the foothills of the NW Himalaya (incl. the one near Chakki) which may constitute sufficient to justify them as separate taxa but without careful study of the whole plants cannot speculate if that is sufficient (or a consistent difference) to justify separation as varieties, subspecies or at the species level but the geographic/altitudinal/ climatic differences may be of significance.
Cannot comment further at this stage.
On Thursday, February 27, 2014 at 8:41:59 AM UTC, Nidhan Singh wrote:Dear All,This beautiful Geranium..having deep coloured centre of corolla was also encountered during my recent visit to Morni Hills..I hope this should be Geranium mascatense Boiss.
--
Regards,
Dr. Nidhan Singh
C CHADWELL
Nov 19, 2016, 2:43:00 PM11/19/16
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Dear Dr Singh
Have just checked 'Flora of India' which used G.ocellatum with G.mascatense as a synonym.
There is a rudimentary line drawing.
Account from Volume 4 (they don't say which year this was published).
I don't rate their distribution information for this species for India.
From: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>
To: "chrischa...@btinternet.com" <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2016, 19:10
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257151] Re: Morni Hills 2014: Geranium mascatense:: NS Feb 05
I don't have my literature here in USA but looking at Tropicos, there combinations under G. mascatense were proposed as early as 1976 by Raizada in Suppl. Duthie's Fl. Upper Gangetic Plain 4: 36, but I don't find any reference merging G. ocellatum proper under G. mascatense. It would be interesting to look up treatment in Flora of India Series, published after Raizada.
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired Associate ProfessorSGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089
There seems to be different interpretations of Geranium mascatense and G.ocellatum. This specimen does not show gaps between petals as is usually the case in photos of plants of G.mascatense in the Gulf - see below.'The Plant List' gives G.ocellatum as a synonym of the former. Whereas Nasir in 'Flora of Pakistan' separates the two. Stewart does not list G,mascatenseat all but has G.ocellatum var. himalaicum as common from 300-1800m. Nasir, on the other hand, says that G.mascatense is only sparingly recorded from Pakistan and then only in Baluchistan.G.mascatense is recorded from Africa and the Gulf - so Baluchistan fits OK with this. Collet had G.ocellatum in hill districts of N.India from same altitudes as Stewart. IF they constitute separate species, I find it somewhat surprising to have G.mascatense in the Himalayan foothills.I do not know on whose authority G.ocellatum has been sunk into G.mascatense. According to Nasir the species are very close but G.mascatense has puberulous mericarps - translating that into English: in Geranium the dry fruits consists of 5 'mericarps' each with a seed, which may be explosively dispersed though sometimes remains inside) the 'puberulous' part means downy with very short soft hairs. So clearly, unless one can observe the fruits of a geranium this characteristic cannot be ascertained. No doubt Nasir knew of other differences.
Taking a quick look at the images for G.mascastense available on the internet, most show marked gaps between the petals (as do the images taken in Muscat in the posting above this) compared with images of specimens from the foothills of the NW Himalaya (incl. the one near Chakki) which may constitute sufficient to justify them as separate taxa but without careful study of the whole plants cannot speculate if that is sufficient (or a consistent difference) to justify separation as varieties, subspecies or at the species level but the geographic/altitudinal/ climatic differences may be of significance.
Cannot comment further at this stage.
On Thursday, February 27, 2014 at 8:41:59 AM UTC, Nidhan Singh wrote:Dear All,This beautiful Geranium..having deep coloured centre of corolla was also encountered during my recent visit to Morni Hills..I hope this should be Geranium mascatense Boiss.
--
Regards,
Dr. Nidhan Singh
--
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Gurcharan Singh
Nov 19, 2016, 3:18:59 PM11/19/16
to C CHADWELL, efloraofindia
Looks strange Boiss 1842 getting relegated to synonymy of Cambess 1844, former should have been accepted name, unless some valid reason.
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired Associate ProfessorSGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089
On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 11:39 AM, C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
Dear Dr SinghHave just checked 'Flora of India' which used G.ocellatum with G.mascatense as a synonym.There is a rudimentary line drawing.Account from Volume 4 (they don't say which year this was published).I don't rate their distribution information for this species for India.
From: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>
To: "chrischadwell261@btinternet.com" <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>
Cc: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2016, 19:10
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257151] Re: Morni Hills 2014: Geranium mascatense:: NS Feb 05
I don't have my literature here in USA but looking at Tropicos, there combinations under G. mascatense were proposed as early as 1976 by Raizada in Suppl. Duthie's Fl. Upper Gangetic Plain 4: 36, but I don't find any reference merging G. ocellatum proper under G. mascatense. It would be interesting to look up treatment in Flora of India Series, published after Raizada.
Dr. Gurcharan SinghRetired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
C CHADWELL
Nov 19, 2016, 3:27:58 PM11/19/16
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
I agree.
To: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2016, 20:18
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257159] Re: Morni Hills 2014: Geranium mascatense:: NS Feb 05
Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2016, 20:18
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257159] Re: Morni Hills 2014: Geranium mascatense:: NS Feb 05
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Gurcharan Singh
Nov 19, 2016, 3:29:45 PM11/19/16
to C CHADWELL, efloraofindia
I think this sounds more realistic, 2015 paper treating ocellatum as synonym
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired Associate ProfessorSGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089
On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 12:18 PM, Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com> wrote:
Looks strange Boiss 1842 getting relegated to synonymy of Cambess 1844, former should have been accepted name, unless some valid reason.
Dr. Gurcharan SinghRetired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089
On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 11:39 AM, C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com> wrote:
Dear Dr SinghHave just checked 'Flora of India' which used G.ocellatum with G.mascatense as a synonym.There is a rudimentary line drawing.Account from Volume 4 (they don't say which year this was published).I don't rate their distribution information for this species for India.
From: Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com>
To: "chrischadwell261@btinternet.com" <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>
Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2016, 19:10
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257151] Re: Morni Hills 2014: Geranium mascatense:: NS Feb 05
I don't have my literature here in USA but looking at Tropicos, there combinations under G. mascatense were proposed as early as 1976 by Raizada in Suppl. Duthie's Fl. Upper Gangetic Plain 4: 36, but I don't find any reference merging G. ocellatum proper under G. mascatense. It would be interesting to look up treatment in Flora of India Series, published after Raizada.
Dr. Gurcharan SinghRetired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089
J.M. Garg
Nov 21, 2016, 8:15:05 PM11/21/16
to chrischa...@btinternet.com, efloraofindia, Nidhan Singh
Thanks, Chadwell ji
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