586 ID wild plant Thottea

[Sam Kuzhalanattu]

Please ID wild plant, kind regards, Sam.

Location: bloomed near Vannappuram Thodupuzha Idukki Kerala INDIA

Altitude: 1500fsl

Flower date: 15AUG2024, 02.35pm

Habitat: wild moisture evergreen misty sloppy canopied alpine 

Plant habit: big shrub, erect branches, hard woody cylindrical stem 07 inches base circumference, rough brownish bark, perennial

Height: 03 meters

Leaves: alternate elongated/elliptic acute simple flexible glossy aromatic, size upto: 25×8cm

Flower: axillary buds, 03 tepals, purplish diameter:10mm, tomentose, non fragrant

Fruit: lengthy cylindrical beans purplish into brown, ridges size:12x0.6cm

Seed: brown upto 10 nos.ovoid angular

Camera: CANON EOS1500D +FL10x

[Sam Kuzhalanattu]

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[Sam Kuzhalanattu]

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[Sam Kuzhalanattu]

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[Saroj Kasaju]

Thottea siliquosa (Lam.) Ding Hou ??

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

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[Sam Kuzhalanattu]

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[Sam Kuzhalanattu]

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[Sam Kuzhalanattu]

Dear Saroj ji,
It is more close to Thottea dalzellii.
Thank you, Sam.

[vip...@gmail.com]

This is very interesting. I suppose the presence of several appendages below the stigmatic lobes in your first photograph (IMG_3277) would qualify this for Thottea dalzellii. From what I've understood, such appendages are either absent or only occasional in Thottea siliquosa. These two species are closely related and I don't have an extensive grasp of all the finer differences between them yet.

Are all the flowers in your first batch of photographs from the very same plant? I'm curious about the arrangement of stamens: 4+4+3 in the first three images as against the more common 3+3+3 in the last image of the partially-open flower (IMG_4853).

Let's wait for Dr. Santhosh's views.

Best wishes, Viplav

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/CADkXgDTK_gEupT_BEa2WCESwbCPkPh4hf8UTEEb%3DEVuGZST8zQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Sam Kuzhalanattu]

Dear Viplav ji,
Thank you very much for the detailed discussions.  The first three images are of fully opened same flower (IMG 3277, 3276, 3273).  Fourth image 4853 was captured (available only one image) from nearby plant in 2023, just I think it is same as T. idukkiana captured in 7.4.22 from another location.

With kind regards, Sam.

[vip...@gmail.com]

Thanks, Sam ji, for the clarification. Though the fourth image (IMG_4853) is from a separate individual, it appears to be the same species as the first three photographs. The number/arrangement of stamens can vary.

The tooth-like, pointy appendages (staminodes?) are similar in both the specimens. The angle of the fourth photograph is not ideal to view these projections but a few are visible nonetheless (marked & attached herewith).

Best wishes, Viplav

[Sam Kuzhalanattu]

Thank you very much dear Viplav ji for the detailed explanation, kind regards, Sam.

[J.M. Garg]

Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please.

Some earlier relevant feedback:

Thottea siliquosa (Lam.) Ding Hou ?? Thank you. Saroj Kasaju

It is more close to Thottea dalzellii. Thank you, Sam.

This is very interesting. I suppose the presence of several appendages below the stigmatic lobes in your first photograph (IMG_3277) would qualify this for Thottea dalzellii. From what I've understood, such appendages are either absent or only occasional in Thottea siliquosa. These two species are closely related and I don't have an extensive grasp of all the finer differences between them yet.

Are all the flowers in your first batch of photographs from the very same plant? I'm curious about the arrangement of stamens: 4+4+3 in the first three images as against the more common 3+3+3 in the last image of the partially-open flower (IMG_4853). Let's wait for Dr. Santhosh's views. Best wishes, Viplav

Thank you very much for the detailed discussions.  The first three images are of fully opened same flower (IMG 3277, 3276, 3273).  Fourth image 4853 was captured (available only one image) from nearby plant in 2023, just I think it is same as T. idukkiana captured in 7.4.22 from another location. With kind regards, Sam.

Thanks, Sam ji, for the clarification. Though the fourth image (IMG_4853) is from a separate individual, it appears to be the same species as the first three photographs. The number/arrangement of stamens can vary.

The tooth-like, pointy appendages (staminodes?) are similar in both the specimens. The angle of the fourth photograph is not ideal to view these projections but a few are visible nonetheless (marked & attached herewith). Best wishes, Viplav

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

[J.M. Garg]

Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please.

Some earlier relevant feedback:

Thottea siliquosa (Lam.) Ding Hou ?? Thank you. Saroj Kasaju

It is more close to Thottea dalzellii. Thank you, Sam.

This is very interesting. I suppose the presence of several appendages below the stigmatic lobes in your first photograph (IMG_3277) would qualify this for Thottea dalzellii. From what I've understood, such appendages are either absent or only occasional in Thottea siliquosa. These two species are closely related and I don't have an extensive grasp of all the finer differences between them yet. Are all the flowers in your first batch of photographs from the very same plant? I'm curious about the arrangement of stamens: 4+4+3 in the first three images as against the more common 3+3+3 in the last image of the partially-open flower (IMG_4853). Let's wait for Dr. Santhosh's views. Best wishes, Viplav

Thank you very much for the detailed discussions.  The first three images are of fully opened same flower (IMG 3277, 3276, 3273).  Fourth image 4853 was captured (available only one image) from nearby plant in 2023, just I think it is same as T. idukkiana captured in 7.4.22 from another location. With kind regards, Sam.

Thanks, Sam ji, for the clarification. Though the fourth image (IMG_4853) is from a separate individual, it appears to be the same species as the first three photographs. The number/arrangement of stamens can vary. The tooth-like, pointy appendages (staminodes?) are similar in both the specimens. The angle of the fourth photograph is not ideal to view these projections but a few are visible nonetheless (marked & attached herewith). Best wishes, Viplav

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

[Sam Kuzhalanattu]

Thank you very much dear Garg ji for forwarding my request for identification, with kind regards, Sam.

[Sam Kuzhalanattu]

Dear Garg ji,
Yes, we had a detailed discussion on it.
Thanks a lot dear Santosh ji.
With kind regards, Sam.

On Sun, 1 Sept 2024, 9:17 pm J.M. Garg, <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks a lot, Santhosh ji.

On Sun, 1 Sept 2024 at 21:04, Dr E S Santhosh Kumar <santhos...@gmail.com> wrote:

GargJi,

We had a long discussion with SamJi regarding the identity. We need to study the specimen in detail. As of now, it is not similar to any known species of the genus, but occasionally such kind of intermediate and natural hybrids are found in this genus. So before coming to a conclusion, I  suggest SamJi to collect a few samples for a detailed study. 

Similarly, many endemic species of south Indian Thottea are now appearing in Sri Lanka also. There was only a single species reported from Sri Lanka, ie Thottea siliquosa. But now T.ponmudiana, T.idukkiana, T.sivarajanii, T. dalzellii etc are also found there. 

The genus Thottea  becomes a mess of species owing to several intermediate forms making the species delimitation a herculean task for the taxonomists. I am working on it now.

Hope we can conclude the circumscription of several species shortly.

With kindest regards

Santhosh

SANTHOSH

..........................................................................
Dr. E S SANTHOSH KUMAR MSc, PhD, FIAT, FABSc, FLS 

Member: IUCN SSC Western Ghats Plant Specialist Group

Jawaharlal Nehru Tropical Botanic Garden and Research Institute (JNTBG&RI), 

Palode, Karimancode P.O.

Thiruvananthapuram-695562
Kerala, India

Mobile: +91 8547825373

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Santhosh-Es
www.drsanthosh.wikifoundry.com

ORCID iD:-- https://orcid.org/0000-0003-2677-535X

Alternate Email id: jntbgri...@gmail.com

 Every day’s life is a Gift.  Let us use it productively

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

[Saroj Kumar Kasaju]

Thottea dalzellii (Hook.fil.) Karthik. & Moorthy is Thottea siliquosa (Lam.) Ding Hou

https://www.catalogueoflife.org/data/taxon/56L48

https://www.gbif.org/species/7904278

Thank you

Saroj Kasaju

[Sam Kuzhalanattu]

Dear Saroj ji,

Yes, it is, thank you very much for identifying and sharing ID links.

Kind regards, Sam.

[Saroj Kasaju]

OK Sam.

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju