Xanthium indicum

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Satish Phadke

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Oct 19, 2011, 12:10:41 PM10/19/11
to indiantreepix
Xanthium indicum Syn Xanthium strumarium
Family : Asteraceae
Marathi : Shankeshwar शंकेश्वर A vweed common on roadside
Observed flowering in open areas around Pune city last few days
Large herb Annual about 1m in height.
Stem branches rough hairy.
Leaves serrate alternate 5-8 cm ovate acute triangular or lobed' appressed hairy.
Flower heads 0.4-0.8mm across. Green when young in terminal and axillary spikes.Barren heads crowded at apex. Fertile heads fewer.
Fruits 2cm long with 2 erect mucronate beaks covered with hooked prickles.
Achenes 1cm bye 0.4 cm oblong or ovoid. Compressed black.

--
Dr Satish Phadke
Xanthium indicum1.jpg
Xanthium indicum2.jpg
Xanthium indicum3.jpg
Xanthium indicum4.jpg

Gurcharan Singh

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Oct 19, 2011, 12:42:50 PM10/19/11
to Satish Phadke, indiantreepix
Satish ji
Yes the identification is correct, but I fail to understand how Xanthium strumarium, a much earlier name be synonym and X. indicum, the accepted name


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Tanay Bose

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Oct 19, 2011, 1:44:55 PM10/19/11
to Gurcharan Singh, Satish Phadke, indiantreepix
Hi Sir Ji .
I may be complete wrong but grain shows Xanthium indicum
to be the syn of X strumarium but I felt is not the accepted name


Thanks
Tanay
--
Tanay Bose
Research Assistant & Teaching Assistant.
Department of Botany.
University of British Columbia .
3529-6270 University Blvd.
Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z4 (Canada)
Phone: 778-323-4036 (Mobile)
           604-822-2019 (Lab)
           604-822-6089  (Fax)


Satish Phadke

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Oct 19, 2011, 2:25:57 PM10/19/11
to Gurcharan Singh, indiantreepix
Agreed it has to be vice versa. Thanks for pointing out that. Even The plant list has something else to say. I cant go  more deeper in that context.
--
Dr Satish Phadke

Dr Pankaj Kumar

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Oct 19, 2011, 9:53:08 PM10/19/11
to efloraofindia
There are many provisions in ICBN to conserve names which may actually
be wrong.
Article 14.2.of ICBN says, "Conservation aims at retention of those
names which best serve stability of nomenclature".
Stability like, the name of family Orchidaceae Juss., Gen. Pl.: 64. 4
Aug 1789. is conserved against Orchidaceae Adanson, Fam. des plantes
2: 68 1763.

Just based on the popularity of usage, Xanthium indicum may be
considered conserved, but it is not yet conserved, as atleast the
plant list or GRIN doesnt consider them as same.

For this particular case, it is yet to be resolved according to The
Plant List and both are till now considered distinct species with
Xanthium indicum Roxb. is an unresolved name but synonymous with
Xanthium inaequilaterum DC..

WHEREAS

Xanthium strumarium L. Sp. Pl. 987 1753 is an unresolved name.

Regards
Pankaj



On Oct 20, 2:25 am, Satish Phadke <drsmpha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Agreed it has to be vice versa. Thanks for pointing out that. Even The plant
> list has something else to say. I cant go  more deeper in that context.
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 10:12 PM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Satish ji
> > Yes the identification is correct, but I fail to understand how Xanthium
> > strumarium, a much earlier name be synonym and X. indicum, the accepted name
>
> > --
> > Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> > Retired  Associate Professor
> > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
> > Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
> >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>
> > On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 9:40 PM, Satish Phadke <drsmpha...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> *Xanthium indicum* Syn *Xanthium strumarium*

Gurcharan Singh

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Oct 19, 2011, 10:42:16 PM10/19/11
to Dr Pankaj Kumar, efloraofindia
Pankaj ji
But interestingly Xanthium strumarium (without any author) is accepted name according to the Plant List, with X. chinense Mill. as synonym I am tired of pointing out corrections to them.


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Pankaj Kumar

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Oct 19, 2011, 11:12:18 PM10/19/11
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Xanthium strumarium Elliott Sketch Bot. S. Carolina 2: 479 (1823).
This is the full citation of the same name.
I understood your point. May be once the other strumarium is resolved,
they will be able to resolve this one also :).
Pankaj

--
**********************************************************************
"Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!"


Pankaj Kumar Ph.D. (Orchidaceae)
Conservation Officer

Office:
Flora Conservation Department
Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation
Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.

Residence:
36c, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun
Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.

email: pku...@kbfg.org
          sahani...@gmail.com
          pankaj...@rediffmail.com
Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:30pm)
           +852 9436 6251 (mobile)

Gurcharan Singh

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Oct 19, 2011, 11:27:25 PM10/19/11
to Pankaj Kumar, efloraofindia
Yes Pankaj ji
I found it out from IPNI and Compositae Checklist.
Thanks for information

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Ushadi micromini

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Oct 20, 2011, 2:13:42 AM10/20/11
to efloraofindia
Wonderful learning conversation.... and sooo mature way of putting
ideas...

thank you folks
I wish all our conversations were this collegial...

Coming back to this case.. it may no be a high prioroty plant for the
naming/restructuring of classification group/s...

usha di

====
On Oct 20, 8:27 am, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes Pankaj ji
> I found it out from IPNI and Compositae Checklist.
> Thanks for information
>
> --
> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> Retired  Associate Professor
> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
> Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 8:42 AM, Pankaj Kumar <sahanipan...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Xanthium strumarium Elliott Sketch Bot. S. Carolina 2: 479 (1823).
> > This is the full citation of the same name.
> > I understood your point. May be once the other strumarium is resolved,
> > they will be able to resolve this one also :).
> > Pankaj
>
> > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Pankaj ji
> > > But interestingly Xanthium strumarium (without any author) is accepted
> > name
> > > according to the Plant List, with X. chinense Mill. as synonym I am tired
> > of
> > > pointing out corrections to them.
>
> > > --
> > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> > > Retired  Associate Professor
> > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
> > > Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
> > >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>
> > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 7:23 AM, Dr Pankaj Kumar <sahanipan...@gmail.com
> >           sahanipan...@gmail.com
> >           pankajsah...@rediffmail.com

Gurcharan Singh

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Oct 20, 2011, 2:38:09 AM10/20/11
to Ushadi micromini, efloraofindia
Ushadi
Don,t pump us so much. If it gets into our head?
The conversation always flows like this if you don't have fixed ideas. We believe in open exchange of information.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

ushadi Micromini

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Oct 20, 2011, 4:03:18 AM10/20/11
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Gurucharanji::)...

no no... you are most level headed guy... except when you get mad... :),
there is no fear of you getting a swollen head...

by "You" i hope you meant ONE ... someone.. a nebulous anybody who gets fixed ideas and wont budge'''

"you" is not USHA DI

I never have fixed ideas... most open mind...

except in a  few cases:
like:
a lady is pregnant or not... there is no such thing a little bit pregnant...
secondly... if there is  cancer in some organs or lymph nodes ... its no longer benign...
I had once had a boss who used to make diagnosis like: i see a few cancer cells in this group.. three lymph nodes have them...  and final diagnosis : Benign lymph nodes...
or this biopsy has a few cancer cells: final diagnosis: benign polyp...  stupid

and I had to clean up his mess... messy inept diagnosis like that ( and he got the big money for being the boss)  ... no open mind about fooling the patient or just plain ineptitude  by/of such  stupid doctors...


OTHERWISE...I HAVE A MOST OPEN MIND...

in my camera club I even had  a category called OPEN MIND... way back in 1980....lots of members won prizes in that category, including yours truly...   open mind is FUN.... 

and least stressful, judging from the conversations / clues provided by the most stressed out patients in my mind-body medicine seminars and groups...who tend to have least open mind... they make up their minds too rapidly and see the world in black and white... no grey zones...  but as nature made it  all situations have a large-wide grey zone...  open mind area ...
...

BUT open mind also does not mean pushover... I can not be pushed around or put down by sexists or inept diagnosticians or arrogance  etc etc... but that's another story..

Usha di
==========

H S

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Oct 20, 2011, 4:43:59 AM10/20/11
to ushadi Micromini, Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Dear all,
Here in Maharashtra we get mostly one species i.e. Xanthium strumarium L. which is seen as a roadside weed, no doubt its an introduced species. Xanthium indicum Koeng. ex Roxb. is synonym of X. strumarium i guess, if its a reliable different species atleast i have not seen it. it will be great if someone upload both species photographs on the site..

regards,
--
 - H.S.

A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart of stone

Gurcharan Singh

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Oct 20, 2011, 5:11:50 AM10/20/11
to H S, ushadi Micromini, efloraofindia
Yes H S
X. strumarium L. and X. indicum Roxb. are same species as per most databases and publication, but looking at the fact that X. indicum was described from India nearly more than 200 years and X. strumarium described in Clarke Compositae Indicae nearly 150 years ago, it may not be appropriate to call is an introduced weed at this stage. 
   But there is another species X. spinosus, which has been recently introduced in Kashmir, and was uploaded by me on Flowers of India.


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

H S

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Oct 20, 2011, 5:46:23 AM10/20/11
to Gurcharan Singh, ushadi Micromini, efloraofindia
Sirji i guess people called the same species as X. indicum instead of X. strumarium before Clarke cleared the things.

regards,

Gurcharan Singh

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Oct 20, 2011, 6:12:12 AM10/20/11
to H S, ushadi Micromini, efloraofindia
Yes that must be true


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Pankaj Kumar

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Oct 20, 2011, 7:23:24 AM10/20/11
to indiantreepix, Gurcharan Singh, H S, ushadi Micromini
Please find the lectotype of Xanthium strumarium attached for
reference. HS can you please check if this is the same which grows in
Maharastra.
We need to check Xanthium indicum too.
Regards
Pankaj

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 7:20 PM, Dr Pankaj Kumar
<sahani...@gmail.com> wrote:


>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com>
> Date: Oct 20, 6:12 pm
> Subject: Xanthium indicum
> To: efloraofindia
>
>
> Yes that must be true
>
> --
> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> Retired  Associate Professor
> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.

> Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 3:16 PM, H S <hemsan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sirji i guess people called the same species as X. indicum instead of X.
>> strumarium before Clarke cleared the things.
>
>> regards,
>

>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>> Yes H S
>>> X. strumarium L. and X. indicum Roxb. are same species as per most
>>> databases and publication, but looking at the fact that X. indicum was
>>> described from India nearly more than 200 years and X. strumarium described
>>> in Clarke Compositae Indicae nearly 150 years ago, it may not be appropriate
>>> to call is an introduced weed at this stage.
>>>    But there is another species X. spinosus, which has been recently
>>> introduced in Kashmir, and was uploaded by me on Flowers of India.
>
>>> --
>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
>>> Retired  Associate Professor
>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
>>> Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>

>>>>>>> > Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
>>>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>

> ...
>
> read more »

--
**********************************************************************
"Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!"


Pankaj Kumar Ph.D. (Orchidaceae)
Conservation Officer

Office:
Flora Conservation Department
Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation
Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.

Residence:
36c, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun
Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.

email: pku...@kbfg.org
          sahani...@gmail.com
          pankaj...@rediffmail.com

LECTOTYPE X STRUMARIUM.JPG

H S

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Oct 20, 2011, 7:26:18 AM10/20/11
to Pankaj Kumar, indiantreepix, Gurcharan Singh, ushadi Micromini
yes this what we find in Maharashtra and adjoining area..

regards

Dr Pankaj Kumar

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Oct 20, 2011, 7:25:01 AM10/20/11
to efloraofindia
Usha mam. Asteraceae was always on high priority for many scientists
since a long time :)
Pankaj



On Oct 20, 6:12 pm, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes that must be true
>
> --
> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> Retired  Associate Professor
> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
> Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 3:16 PM, H S <hemsan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Sirji i guess people called the same species as X. indicum instead of X.
> > strumarium before Clarke cleared the things.
>
> > regards,
>
> > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> Yes H S
> >> X. strumarium L. and X. indicum Roxb. are same species as per most
> >> databases and publication, but looking at the fact that X. indicum was
> >> described from India nearly more than 200 years and X. strumarium described
> >> in Clarke Compositae Indicae nearly 150 years ago, it may not be appropriate
> >> to call is an introduced weed at this stage.
> >>    But there is another species X. spinosus, which has been recently
> >> introduced in Kashmir, and was uploaded by me on Flowers of India.
>
> >> --
> >> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> >> Retired  Associate Professor
> >> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> >> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
> >> Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
> >>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>
> >>>>>> > Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
> >>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>
> ...
>
> read more »

Pankaj Kumar

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Oct 20, 2011, 7:30:18 AM10/20/11
to H S, indiantreepix, Gurcharan Singh, ushadi Micromini
Can anyone please get the protologue of Xanthium indicum from Hortus
Bengalensis?
Pankaj

mani nair

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Oct 20, 2011, 8:02:38 AM10/20/11
to Pankaj Kumar, H S, indiantreepix, Gurcharan Singh, ushadi Micromini
Satish ji, I remember during our school days we used to throw the seed pods on the back of our friends and enjoy the sight.

Thanks for sharing.
Regards,

Mani.

Pankaj Kumar

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Oct 20, 2011, 8:08:19 AM10/20/11
to mani nair, H S, indiantreepix, Gurcharan Singh, ushadi Micromini
In scientific terms you were actually dispersing its seeds, which is
the usual way of doing it, otherwise in nature, it get stuck to other
animals or even human beings and get dispersed.
Pankaj

Gurcharan Singh

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Oct 20, 2011, 8:16:34 AM10/20/11
to Pankaj Kumar, mani nair, H S, indiantreepix, ushadi Micromini
In technical terms exozoochory

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

Ushadi micromini

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Oct 20, 2011, 9:09:45 AM10/20/11
to efloraofindia
Pankaj ji: if high priority has left in lurch...
I cant imagine what happens to low priority plants...?

:)
U di
======
> ...
>
> read more »

Satish Phadke

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Oct 20, 2011, 10:42:39 AM10/20/11
to indiantreepix
Thanks everybody.
I enjoyed the discussions on this thread similar to others who have posted or not posted comments to this thread of one common plant. This again shows the benefits of Efloraindia. With limited knowledge on researching the name part I can't comment more on it but still I enjoyed the interactions a lot.
--
Dr Satish Phadke

Dinesh Valke

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Oct 20, 2011, 11:51:34 AM10/20/11
to Satish Phadke, indiantreepix
Though the post has the ID agreed, it remains unconcluded in anticipation of getting the protologue of Xanthium indicum from Hortus Bengalensis.
Hopefully someone may be able to provide.
Regards.
Dinesh
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