Fwd: ¿ Thyrocarpus glochidiatus ?

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Dinesh Valke

Mar 1, 2010, 6:27:07 AM3/1/10
to efloraofindia
Dear friends,

Inadvertently posted the query to group's moderators.
Sorry for the mess.

Here is Gurcharan ji's response:

x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x

I tried it hard to fix, the outside rim with seems to be unique. To me it does not match with:

x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x

Many thanks Gurcharan ji for giving a good lead.
Expecting more comment(s) ... hoping to get the ID.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:19 PM
Subject: ¿ Thyrocarpus glochidiatus ?
To: itp...@googlegroups.com

Dear friends,

Had sent this query in a personal mail to Isaac Kehimkar ji, who forwarded it to then IndianTreePix.
... thus this ID request is incidently my first query !!!

Garg ji had resurfaced it once ... did not get any response, possibly for want of details.

Two of my flickr friends - Tony suggested it to be a member of Boraginaceae, few months back ... and recently, Tanay Bose says it must be Thyrocarpus glochidiatus.

Earnest request for comment(s).

Date/Time : October 25, 2008 at 11.43am
Location Place : Karnala Bird Sanctuary ... Altitude : 104 m ± 3 m ... GPS : 18°53'27.01"N, 73° 7'3.50"E ± few seconds.
Habitat : Wild ... Type : mixed deciduous forest, under tree-cover
Plant Habit : Herb ... Height : about 50 -70 cm ... Length : - NO -
Leaves Type : do not know ... Shape : do not know ... Size : do not know
Inflorescence Type : terminal racemous ... Size : about 25 - 30 cm
Flowers Size : about 3 mm ... Colour : do not know ... Calyx : as in photo ... Bracts : do not know
Fruits Type : as in photo ... Shape : as in photo ... Size : about 3 mm ... Seeds : do not know

Other Info :
Fragrance : do not know ...  Pollinator : do not know ...  Uses : do not know




Dinesh Valke

Mar 1, 2010, 8:43:28 AM3/1/10
to Prashant awale, efloraofindia
... a very good lead, dear Prashant.
Was thinking about it, but the size beats me ..
This may indeed turn out to be P. lambertiana.


On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Prashant awale <pka...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dinesh,
Doesn't it looks like some Paracaryopsis sp.  (Could as well be  Paracaryopsis lambertiana). Just a wild guess..
best wishes

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Prashant awale

Mar 1, 2010, 8:39:42 AM3/1/10
to Dinesh Valke, efloraofindia
Dear Dinesh,
Doesn't it looks like some Paracaryopsis sp.  (Could as well be  Paracaryopsis lambertiana). Just a wild guess..
best wishes

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dinesh Valke

Mar 1, 2010, 10:53:46 PM3/1/10
to Prashant awale, efloraofindia
Dear friends, more than convinced that this plant must be the Lambert's paracaryopsis,  Paracaryopsis lambertiana ... locally known as हिरवी निसुर्डी hirvi nisurdi
Thank you very much, dear Prashant.

Satish Phadke

Mar 2, 2010, 7:58:46 AM3/2/10
to Dinesh Valke, Prashant awale, efloraofindia
Dinesh ji
It must be the later phase of the plant i.e. Between flowering and fruiting. So the classic colours of the flowers are not visible here. Also the full fledged fruits are probably yet to to get developed. Many plants in such phases get us bolded out.
Thanks for the interesting thread.
Satish phadke

Aparna Watve

Mar 6, 2010, 3:03:35 AM3/6/10
to Satish Phadke, Dinesh Valke, Prashant awale, efloraofindia, Swapna Prabhu
Dear All,
I took time to answer this, because in the past I have indicated that
the identification of the genus Paracaryopsis should not be done
without fruit characters together with flowers and good literature
should be checked. (thrice if I remember correctly)
Any way, I troubled Dr. Swapna, to write me the key and description
from Cooke's Bombay Presidency flora, which acc to me is the most
OK So the key to Paracaryopsis (Paracaryum in old literature including
Cooke)species is :

1. Nutlets glochidiate
2. Stem red, flwrs pale blue with a darker centre ---- P. coelestinum
2. Stem green, flowers dark blue uniform in colour without a dark
centre ...... P. malabaricum

1. Nutlets NOT glochidiate ---------- P. lambertianum ( it was
separated at times as genus Mattiastrum, but not by recent ideas)

Description of fruit of P. lambertianum: Nutlets usually 2, (2 others
suppressed) reaching 1/2 by 7/16 in, broadly ovate, flattened, "not
glochidiate on the margins or faces. margin entire, flat, extending in
the same plane" as the face or very slightly curved upwards.

As you can see from the key, the plant in picture is certainly not
Paracaryopsis lambertiana, as the glochidiate margin of fruit is so
nicely seen.
P. lambertianum is strikingly different in this character although
matching flowers of Paracaryopsis coelestinum. The key in the Flora of
Maharashtra dicot 2 is WRONG, but the description is correct, although
very sketchy. I have seen this species and its non glochidiate winged
fruits in field (Gaganbavda ghat, Kolhapur and Kori Fort, near
Ambavane/Lonavala) and also checked in herbarium of BSI Pune circle.

SO the plant in picture is not Paracaryopsis lambertiana.
As for what it is, I cannot see the flowers clearly, a back view is
not useful at all, and the size appears smaller than Paracaryopsis,
but size does not matter so much. It can very well be a small poorly
nourished plant of P. coelestinum as it cannot be P. lambertianum or
P. malabaricum. But perhaps one should also characters of Cynoglossum,
a genus fairly close in general look of Paracaryopsis although the
fruits of Paracaryopsis are fairly different than Cynoglossum.
If I visit Pune, I will try to get a picture from herbarium and
circulate the fruit picture so that there is no misidentification in
Web also has some new paper by R. Mill on this genus, but I have not
been able to access it.


Dr. Aparna Watve
Dr. Aparna Watve
Asha Appt, Shanti Nagar, Ekata Colony
Nr. BSNL tower, Akbar Ward,
tel: 07692-228115
mobile: (0)9755667710 and 9822597288 still works

Dinesh Valke

Mar 6, 2010, 12:18:53 PM3/6/10
to Aparna Watve, Satish Phadke, Prashant awale, efloraofindia, Swapna Prabhu
Many many thanks for providing clarity, Aparna ji.
From your review, for sure, the ID is not P. lambertianum or P. malabaricum

The attached photos is all that are available for the ID query ... BUT the key elements are missing, thus it may not be possible to know the ID to the species level.
The fruit in the photo appears fairly clear, however not sure whether clear enough for knowing it to be Paracaryopsis OR Cynoglossum OR another grenus.


Dinesh Valke

Jun 18, 2010, 1:04:46 PM6/18/10
to Aparna Watve, Satish Phadke, Prashant awale, efloraofindia, Swapna Prabhu
Dear friends, ... here is a excerpt of response from Miguel Serrano Pérez (Departamento de Botânica, Faculdade de Farmácia)


... Regarding the identifications, I could disagree a little in some pictures of P. lambertiana. I  would say that these pictures belong to Adelocaryum colestinum (=P.coelestina), mainly for the glochidiate nutlet. For instance: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dinesh_valke/2977893065/ ...


Dear Aparna ji, just as you hunch, this plant turns out to be Paracaryopsis coelestina ... the current and accepted name is Adelocaryum colestinum.

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