Fabaceae herb ID 26/9/2012 SK

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surajit koley

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Sep 26, 2012, 2:06:02 PM9/26/12
to efloraofindia
Sir,

I thought it was SHOLAPITH (Aeschynomene), i have been told so by local residents, but leaflets are much bigger. I attach pictures of four individuals, and also two old records of the same plant.

Species : UNKNOWN
Habit & Habitat : wild under-shrub in ditches and flooded lowland at village outskirts, 5 feet or more tall
Date : 18/8/12 & 25/9/10 (old, with flowers)
Place : Khanpur (Hooghly)

Thank you & Regards,

surajit

8735.jpg
8739.jpg
old_VSCN6223.jpg
old_VSCN6225.jpg
plant1_DSCN8728.jpg
plant1_DSCN8730.jpg
plant1_DSCN8734.jpg
plant1_DSCN8735.jpg
plant2_DSCN8758.jpg
plant3_DSCN8792.jpg
plant3_DSCN8793.jpg
plant4_DSCN8817.jpg

Neil Soares

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Sep 27, 2012, 12:46:15 AM9/27/12
to efloraofindia, surajit koley
Hi,
 This one also looks like Sesbania bisphinosa.
                     With regards,
                       Neil Soares.

--- On Wed, 9/26/12, surajit koley <surajitno...@gmail.com> wrote:
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surajit koley

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Sep 27, 2012, 2:04:05 PM9/27/12
to Neil Soares, efloraofindia
Neil Sir,

I also thought that it might be a Sesbania species, specially, Sesbania cannabina (Retz.) Pers. (or DHONCHE in Bengali), more so because DHONCHE is cultivated in many places in Hooghly, including that particular place and in this very rainy season.

Yesterday, i worked for almost 2 hrs. just to understand what does mucronate or truncate or apiculate or obliquely rounded leaf mean. I paste below my homework!



Description = Sesbania cannabina (Retz.) Poir. = http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Gbase/data/pf000169.htm

The above homework led me to Aeschynomene species. Only leaflet size doesn't match.

Now, as i read the description of Sesbania bispinosa at FoP (http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=242348734) the same size problem arises, leaflet in this species measures at about 4 cm x more than 7 mm.

Thank you very much,

Regards,

surajit

Dinesh Valke

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Sep 27, 2012, 2:15:59 PM9/27/12
to surajit koley, Neil Soares, efloraofindia
Surajit ji, can we get nearer to some flowers at whatever best focus - by cropping original pictures (old_VSCN6223.jpg OR old_VSCN6225.jpg) ?
Hopefully some time later, you may even get to capture the seedpods -- may give us good lead.
My thought is - some species of Aeschynomene.
Regards.
Dinesh



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surajit koley

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Sep 27, 2012, 2:21:55 PM9/27/12
to Dinesh Valke, Neil Soares, efloraofindia
Dinesh Ji,

I wish to visit the place as soon as possible and take pics of flowers and pods, if available.
Also i will search my old archives for the original copies of those cropped pics i attached. I hope i didn't delete the originals, what i often do to save my hard-disk space.

Regards,

surajit

surajit koley

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Sep 28, 2012, 3:41:14 PM9/28/12
to Dinesh Valke, Neil Soares, efloraofindia
Neil Sir & Dinesh Ji,

This plants, be several individuals of the same species or belong to two different taxa, are neither Aeschynomene aspera nor A. indica, nor even A. americana. Leaflets and pods are much bigger here. Moreover, pods are long, as can be seen in the attached picture 1024x_old_VSCN6225_25sept2010,jpg.

For the very leaflet size we can discard S. sesban (all varieties), S. bispinosa.

Sesbania concolor in FoP = leaflet 1-3 cm x 3-8 mm = http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=250064809
Sesbania cannabina in FoC = leaflet  8-20(-40) × 2.5-4(-7) = http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200012310

It appears to me that it is a Sesbania species, maybe Sesbania cannabina (Retz.) Pers. According to FoC, "....Stems green or sometimes brown, smooth, with inconspicuous light greenish stripes..." and the same feature can be seen in my original upload pic - plant3_DSCN8793.jpg. But, at the same time i fail to explain prickles in pic - plant1_DSCN8730.jpg.

Thank you,

Regards,

surajit


On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com> wrote:
1024x_old_VSCN6221_25sept2010.jpg
1024x_old_VSCN6221b_25sept2010.jpg
1024x_old_VSCN6223_25sept2010.jpg
1024x_old_VSCN6225_25sept2010.jpg

Gurcharan Singh

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Sep 28, 2012, 9:49:56 PM9/28/12
to surajit koley, Dinesh Valke, Neil Soares, efloraofindia
Surajit ji
This is turning interesting. First make sure that all photographs belong to the same plant/population. Obviously 3730 and 3797 don't belong to the same plant. 
    Your 6225 excludes the possibility of Aeschynomene, as pods are clearly of Sesbania. 
    Your first photograph 8735 raises the biggest doubt. the leaflet shown starts from 5.6 cm and extends to about 9.8, a length of about 4.2 cm. same image at number 8 where whole width of leaf is shown the scale covering pair of leaflets. It starts from 5.6 and extends up to slightly less than 15. Taking into account the width of rachis the length comes to around 4.2-4.3 cm.
     The number of leaflets in few leaves that I could count seems to be 21-23 pairs.
     This strictly does not fit any species known in our Floras, although S. sesban  with up to 25 pairs or so seems closest. The leaflet size in S. cannabinus is 8-20 mm, S. bispinosa 10-16 mm, and S. sesban 13-25 mm, again last being the closest.
      Please analyse your specimens keeping these in mind.

 

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
     

--
 
 
 



surajit koley

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Sep 28, 2012, 10:30:55 PM9/28/12
to Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Neil Soares, efloraofindia
Good morning Sir,

I explain the images in groups of 4, excluding the old records.
All images, except the old ones, were recorded on the same day and along roadside covering a distance of 200 meters or so.

group1 : pics nos. = 8735, 8739, plant1_DSCN8730, plant1_DSCN8734, plant1_DSCN8735
The above pictures are taken between 2:22:31 p.m. to 2:25:50 p.m., so i think all images come from a single plant.

group2 : pic no. = plant2_DSCN8758 was recorded at 2:45:04 p.m., so i think it comes from a second plant.

group3 : pics nos. = plant3_DSCN8792, plant3_DSCN8793, = recorded between 3:03:46 to 3:04:07 p.m., i think from a third plant

group4 : pic no. = plant4_DSCN8817 was taken at 3:16:07 p.m., probably from a population at another location in the vicinity.

However, according to FoC, leaflets of S. cannabina can attain a length of 40mm, i copy here a line - "leaflet blades oppo­site or subopposite, linear-oblong, 8-20(-40) × 2.5-4(-7) mm, smaller at both ends of rachis than in middle" = http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200012310

But, all said and done, i am very much ashamed to make it so confusing, I will try to revisit the place today and make new post or posts, whichever is applicable, with new records of those plants.

Thank you & regards,

surajit

surajit koley

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Sep 29, 2012, 12:35:15 PM9/29/12
to Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Neil Soares, efloraofindia
Sir,

I visited the place and recorded fresh images of plants scattered in an area covering only 50 meter or less.

FINDINGS :
  1. All my previous pictures, including those old flowered ones and with pods, come from same species.
  2. This plant is locally known as KATHSHOLA (where KATH = wood or woody), it is entirely wild species
  3. DHONCHE, a cultivated species used as green manure, is also growing nearby areas. My previous uploads of DHONCHE is at - https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/xaUdJoZOLeI/discussion
  4. I do not know scientific names of both the species, but they are surely either different species or varieties or cultivars or whatever botany has in store for such plants
  5. KATHSHOLA is branched shrub growing in submerged lowlands, in small ponds, ditches and even on roadside
  6. The overall appearance of DHONCHE is rather Jute Plant like , a slender herb
Species Features :
  • The plant grows vigorously in submerged land, while they are weak on relatively drier place (roadside plants are weak, 3-4 feet, slender, but, those at the edges of ponds and in submerged unused lands do attain a height of more than 8 feet above water surface)
  • The stem is prickly at lower or base and without prickle in the upper region+branches
  • The diameter of the stem at base region is that of a mature sugarcane
  • adventitious roots emerge from base region and can be seen just above the water surface
  • rachis and leaflets length varies according to plant health, maturity, and growing area on the stems. The leaves and leaflets at lower part is bigger than upper part of the stems
Searched for KATHSHOLA :

Thank you & Regards,

surajit
On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com> wrote:
set1_01.jpg
set1_04.jpg
set1_06.jpg
set1_07.jpg
set2_01.jpg
set2_07.jpg
set2_08.jpg
set2_10.jpg
set2_11.jpg
set2_12.jpg
set3_01.jpg
set3_04.jpg
set3_05.jpg
set3_07.jpg
set3_10.jpg
set3_11.jpg
set3_12.jpg
set3_13.jpg

Gurcharan Singh

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Sep 29, 2012, 1:28:27 PM9/29/12
to surajit koley, Dinesh Valke, Neil Soares, efloraofindia
Thanks Surajit ji for excellent analysis.
Your first photograph seems to be settling the issue. I can count about 25 pairs of leaflets in one of the leaves. There don't seem any prickles, and most important standard is wider than long. This seems to be confirming your ID S. cannabina.
    You may focus on underside of some young leaves to check for pubescence.
       

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089


ushadi Micromini

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Sep 29, 2012, 1:47:22 PM9/29/12
to surajit koley, Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Neil Soares, efloraofindia
very nice
like it that you persevere
usha di

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--
Usha di
===========

surajit koley

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Sep 29, 2012, 2:06:28 PM9/29/12
to Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke, Neil Soares, efloraofindia
Sir,

I was searching all my 100+ pics i recorded today. I have no picture of the underside of young leaves.

Since the place is about 2 km from my school i will surely check for pubescence on the underside of the young leaves.

One problem still remains, if it is S. cannabina then what could be the ID of DHONCHE plant.

I will try to get more data on DHONCHE and pubescence of this plant by the end of coming week.

Thank you very much,

Regards,

surajit

surajit koley

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Sep 29, 2012, 2:07:41 PM9/29/12
to ushadi Micromini, efloraofindia
Thank you very much Usha Di.

Regards,

surajit

Gurcharan Singh

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Sep 29, 2012, 2:36:55 PM9/29/12
to surajit koley, ushadi Micromini, efloraofindia
Surajit ji
Your DHONCHE plant on the website (link below) has about 12-14 pairs of leaflets and standard much broader than long. That perfectly fits S. sesban



-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089


--
 
 
 



surajit koley

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Sep 29, 2012, 10:30:41 PM9/29/12
to Gurcharan Singh, ushadi Micromini, efloraofindia
Good morning Sir,

Now, as you have pointed out i notice the standard of the DHONCHE flower is much broader.

I couldn't reach those DHONCHE plants because of waterlogging.  One of my students went to that waterlogged filed and collected a flowering twig for me.

Thank you very much, Sir, once again.

Regards,

surajit

surajitkoley

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Sep 30, 2012, 3:18:35 AM9/30/12
to indian...@googlegroups.com
Sir,

Received an ID suggestion, Sesbania sesban var. picta. I copy paste the ID keys below-

This is looking like Sesbania sesban var. picta

leaflets 40-50 mm long, c. 3-5 mm wide, linear-oblong, obtuse, apiculate, glabrous; stipules c. 5-7 mm long. Inflorescence an axillary raceme; 12-20-flowered, up to 15 cm long. Bract and bracteoles up to 3 mm long, caducous. Pedicel up to 12 mm long, Calyx glabrous, except the margin, c. 5 mm long, teeth c. 1 mm or less, broadly triangular. Corolla yellow, tinged with or spotted purple. 

I attach a bigger picture where flowers have spotted corolla.


Regards,

surajit
 

surajit koley

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Sep 30, 2012, 3:38:45 AM9/30/12
to indian...@googlegroups.com
Sir,

Though some flowers are spotted majority of them seem to be not spotted. Attaching more flower pictures.

Regards,

surajit


 

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DSCN2840.jpg
DSCN2877.jpg
DSCN2884.jpg
DSCN2908.jpg
DSCN2912.jpg
DSCN2914.jpg
DSCN2917.jpg

surajit koley

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Sep 30, 2012, 1:27:25 PM9/30/12
to indian...@googlegroups.com
Sir,

I copy an entry from "Bengal Plants" by David Prain (Vol.1, page 402 onward), an ebook downloaded from the net =

Pods twisted, pendulous; flowers .5 in. or more long; stems and branches unarmed :-
....................
      Perennial, stems woody; flowers .6 in.; pods 6 in, long, sutures undulate and valves widely depressed between the seeds; small trees:-
         Flowers uniformly yellow...... aegyptiaca
         Flowers more or less coloured:-
             Standard externally dotted with purple .... aegyptiaca var. picta
             Standard externally dark maroon or purple ..... aegyptiaca var, bicolor
     Annual, stems pith like; flowers .75 in.; pods 10-12 in. long, sutures straight, valves slightly abruptly depressed between the seeds; a swamp species with tree-like stems ....... paludosa

Pods not twisted, erect or ascending (except sometimes in S. cannabina);
.........................................
...........................................
another entry from the same book reads-
539/2. Var. PICTA Prain. S. aegyptiaca F. B. I. ii. 114 partly.
Cultivated fairly commonly.
A small tree.
...............
540. SESBANIA PALUDOSA Prain. S. aculeata var. paludosa F. B. I. ii. 115 partly. Aeschynomene paludosa F. I. iii. 333. E. D. S. 1164.
Central and Eastern Bengal, in jheels; common.
A tall marsh plant with tree-like stems. Beng. Kath-sola

Again, i copy entries from "An English Index to The Plants of India" by Piddington, another e-book downloaded from the net-
page2-
Aeschynomene
grandiflora, (white and red) = BOK-PHOOL (in Bengali)
Sesban, (yellow and purple) .............
             .................
             paludosa = SHOLA; SOLA; Kath-Shola.
             cannabina = DHUNCHA.

page 207 & 209 of the same book reads-
Shola; Sola = Aeschynomene paludosa

Entries from yet another e-book, "HORTUS SUBURBANUS CALCUTTENSIS" (A Catalogue of The Plants which have been cultivated in the Hon. East India Company's Botanical Garden, Calcutta, and in the Serampore Botanical Garden....) by Voigt.
page 216=
Sesbania aegyptiaca Pers. ........... JUYUNTEE (in Bengali).......... cultivated and extensively used...........

Since, these books can be downloaded freely from the net i hope they are not copyrighted and i attach screenshots from those books
AnEnglishIndex_PIDDINGTON_1.jpg
AnEnglishIndex_PIDDINGTON_5.jpg
AnEnglishIndex_PIDDINGTON_6.jpg
BengalPlants_Prain_2.jpg
BengalPlants_Prain_3.jpg
BengalPlants_Prain_4.jpg
BengalPlants_Prain_5.jpg
HortusSuburbanusCalcuttensis_Voigt_1.jpg

surajit koley

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Oct 6, 2012, 12:25:46 PM10/6/12
to indian...@googlegroups.com
Sir,

I think this species is Sesbania paludosa Prain, a synonym of S. javanica Miq. as per The Plant List. This is a shrub, not herb as i have mentioned before, the stem can attain a diameter of a bamboo culm. This is purely wild species.

Biodiversity Library has some old accounts of S. javanica - http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/name/Sesbania_javanica
Attaching a page from an ebook that mentions a plant, S. paludosa Roxb., available at - http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/384865#page/262/mode/1up
Also attaching two more images.
mobot39088011697034_0262.jpg
DSCN2978x1024.jpg
DSCN3386x1024.jpg
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