V. pilosa (V. serpens)? ABMAR01/05

[Ashwini Bhatia]

These flowers are very abundant in our area (much more so than V. canescens) and I find them scattered everywhere on the hill sides on my daily walks. I have been seeing them since January but they started coming out in good numbers around mid-February. These are larger lilac/lavender flowers with broad lower lip and a hint of contrasting bright yellow around the stigma. The runners are quite common and the stipules toothed. I have seen several capsules with sepals and stigma still attached. The leaves and stems are softly hairy but much less so than those of V. canescens.

Now the troubling part. While typing this message and looking at my data closely, I have managed to convince myself that I am not certain of its ID. Here is why:

Viola serpens is a synonym of Viola pilosa which is now the accepted name according to the Plant List;

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/tro-33801418

A search for V. pilosa on FlowersofIndia.net shows a completely different flower but Alok Mahendroo ji’s blog shows the same flower as the one below under V. serpens. If they are synonyms then I am baffled yet again. There is more—flowersofindia gives V. serpens as a synonym also of V. indica (an unresolved name according to the Plant List), the photos of which look very similar to my sample, but my flowers are definitely not fragrant. It could be that V. pilosa has great variation in colour, size and shape and that my sample is V. pilosa aka V. serpens.

First here is a page from the Linnean Society Journal which lists V. canescens as white and much smaller that V. serpens. My flower matches the description of V. serpens.

I am not sure how to proceed from here. Is my sample V. pilosa or a hybrid or a local variation? Is it a variety of Viola canina? I am in great need of 

expert advice. Please help.

Thanks.

Ashwini

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Ashwini ji,

Viola serpens Wall. ex Ging.is a synonym of Viola pilosa Blume as per GRIN, Tropicos & The Plant List Ver. 1.1.

So you can rely on this.

FOI is not meant to give exact synonyms (as author citations were generally not mentioned though some efforts have been made lately in this regard)- It is better to consult efi site in this matter as it is regularly updated & re-looked whenever there are issues in this regard on the forum. Further there can be mistakes in species identifications- particularly the difficult ones.

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'

Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia. 

For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- more than 2500 members & 2,25,000 messages on 18.6.15) or Efloraofindia website (with a species database of more than 11,000 species & 2,00,000 images).

The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.

Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'.

[Ashwini Bhatia]

Thank you Mr Garg. I agree that this genus is tricky and mistakes are bound to creep up. I am not even sure if my previous photo on efi is V. pilosa or not. I will keep trying.

Regards,

Ashwini

On 4 Mar 2016, at 09:44, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Ashwini ji,

Viola serpens Wall. ex Ging.is a synonym of Viola pilosa Blume as per GRIN, Tropicos & The Plant List Ver. 1.1.

So you can rely on this.

FOI is not meant to give exact synonyms (as author citations were generally not mentioned though some efforts have been made lately in this regard)- It is better to consult efi site in this matter as it is regularly updated & re-looked whenever there are issues in this regard on the forum. Further there can be mistakes in species identifications- particularly the difficult ones.

On 3 March 2016 at 23:30, Ashwini Bhatia <ash...@ashwinibhatia.com> wrote:

These flowers are very abundant in our area (much more so than V. canescens) and I find them scattered everywhere on the hill sides on my daily walks. I have been seeing them since January but they started coming out in good numbers around mid-February. These are larger lilac/lavender flowers with broad lower lip and a hint of contrasting bright yellow around the stigma. The runners are quite common and the stipules toothed. I have seen several capsules with sepals and stigma still attached. The leaves and stems are softly hairy but much less so than those of V. canescens.

Now the troubling part. While typing this message and looking at my data closely, I have managed to convince myself that I am not certain of its ID. Here is why:

Viola serpens is a synonym of Viola pilosa which is now the accepted name according to the Plant List;

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/tro-33801418

A search for V. pilosa on FlowersofIndia.net shows a completely different flower but Alok Mahendroo ji’s blog shows the same flower as the one below under V. serpens. If they are synonyms then I am baffled yet again. There is more—flowersofindia gives V. serpens as a synonym also of V. indica (an unresolved name according to the Plant List), the photos of which look very similar to my sample, but my flowers are definitely not fragrant. It could be that V. pilosa has great variation in colour, size and shape and that my sample is V. pilosa aka V. serpens.

First here is a page from the Linnean Society Journal which lists V. canescens as white and much smaller that V. serpens. My flower matches the description of V. serpens.

I am not sure how to proceed from here. Is my sample V. pilosa or a hybrid or a local variation? Is it a variety of Viola canina? I am in great need of 

expert advice. Please help.

Thanks.

Ashwini

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[J.M. Garg]

As per keys in Flora of Pakistan:

13 (12)	Stigma beaked. Ovary glabrous		(14)
+	Stigma club shaped. Ovary hairy		2 Viola canescens
14 (13)	Leaves acuminate. Sepals lanceolate, acute, ciliate-dentate		3 Viola pilosa
+	Leaves obtuse. Sepals ovate, obtuse, entire		1 Viola odorata

Keys as per Flora of Mizoram in efi thread:

Leaves broadly canescent, obtuse; flower pale-violet --- Viola canescens

Leaves pilose, deltoid, acuminate; flowers white to bluish --- Viola pilosa

Here stigma is beaked and not club shaped. Leaves are acuminate and not obtuse.

So, it should be Viola pilosa Blume

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'

Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia. 

For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or Efloraofindia website (with a species database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more than 2,00,000 images are directly displayed on 30.8.19).

[J.M. Garg]

Also ovary is glabrous.

[J.M. Garg]

Also ovary is glabrous here (in V. pilosa) in comparison to hairy in V. canescens

Also stipule is ciliate here (in V. pilosa) in comparison to laciniate in V. canescens

[Ashwini Bhatia]

Dear Mr. Garg,

Thank you very much for pursuing this again. I am also looking at the viols closely at the moment. I have a feeling that this species is neither V. pilosa nor V. canescens but some other species, closer to V. indica perhaps.

I will file more photos of the two species flowering here in a day or two. If we can find some more details on the nectar glands (or nectary appendages) for V. pilosa and V. canescens, that could be of great help.

Warm regards,

Ashwini

Also ovary is glabrous.

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[Mahadeswara]

Simply superb presentation with all the details , info and reference besides the beautiful photographs. 

[Ashwini Bhatia]

Dear Mr. Garg,

I have collected more evidence for this species and am nowhere closer to a proper ID. A few points:

1. The flowers are almost always violet. I am yet to see a lighter violet/white variety in this species.

2. The flowering starts in January and the flowers are seen till April.

3. The lower petal is the same size as the other petals and is always prominently visible.

4. The lateral petals have hairs at their base but the hairs are not conspicuous.

5. The top part of each stamen is deep yellow. The stamens cover the style for most of its length with only the stigma and a little of the style visible above the stamen ring.

6. The style is club shaped and beaked at the top. The ovary is only sparsely hairy.

7. The two nectary appendages are smooth and green.

8. The stipules are laciniate in my opinion. There may be a mix of of laciniate and toothed stipules on the same plant.

9. I am yet to discern an aroma from the flowers.

Based on these points and looking at the images, if you could suggest a possible match, I would be very grateful.

Thank you.

With regards,

Ashwini

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Ashwini ji, for the wonderful images.

I will go for Viola pilosa only.

Stipules are quite variable.

[Ashwini Bhatia]

Thank you Mr. Garg. Sorry for the delay in replying. I was utilising my indoor stay to look up more Viola resources. I am still not fully convinced that this is Viola pilosa, especially if the other plants submitted by Saroj ji and Anurag are also the same species. Please let me explain my doubts:

1. FOC says that the anterior petal is the shortest in V. pilosa, in my samples it is not the case. In Anurag and Saroj ji’s posts, the anterior petal is visibly narrower and shorter than the rest. In this sense they have a better claim to be V. pilosa than my sample.

2. The style in both posts projects well beyond the stamens and does not look inflated. In my samples that is not the case.

3. The lateral sepals in both posts are conspicuously bearded at the base. In my samples, the hair is difficult to see without magnification.

4. The flower colour in both posts is closer to white, agreeing with the V. pilosa.  My samples are uniformly mauve and I have found only one close-to-white flower amongst hundreds of plants.

I hope you understand my concern regarding this viola. I am at it for close to five years and still not sure of its identity.

Thank you once again.

Warm regards,

Ashwini

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Ashwini ji.

I think there appears to be lot of variations in different aspects in this species.

Ultimately, we have to rely of key features as per Flora of Pakistan as below:

13 (12)	Stigma beaked. Ovary glabrous		(14)
+	Stigma club shaped. Ovary hairy		2 Viola canescens
14 (13)	Leaves acuminate. Sepals lanceolate, acute, ciliate-dentate		3 Viola pilosa
+	Leaves obtuse. Sepals ovate, obtuse, entire		1 Viola odorata

I do not find any other species except Viola pilosa, closer to your post, after going through all the posts in efi site, FOI site and various other online resources. 

[Ashwini Bhatia]

Thank you Mr Garg. Even if we follow the Flora of Pakistan the confusion remains. 

FOP says:

Flowers small, 3.5 cm long, resupinate, whitish blue. Sepals c. 5.0 x 1.5-2 mm, lanceolate, acute, ciliate-denticulate. Petals oblanceolate-obovate, obtuse, marked with dark coloured violet lines, bearded above with short hairs, the upper petal smaller than the rest and acute; spur obtuse, c. 6 mm long. Anthers distinct. Ovary ovate, c. 2.5 mm long, 1.5 mm broad, glabrous; style 3.5 mm long, beaked, beak directed downward.

Fl. Per.: April-August.

My samples are not whitish blue, the upper (same as anterior since the flower is resupinate) petal not smaller than the rest and acute and the flowering time not April to August. 

Please advise.

Thanks.

Ashwini

[J.M. Garg]

My suggestion was to go by Key features as given in the keys.

Regarding details, you know how confusing it is, as different sources state different things.

[Ashwini Bhatia]

Dear Mr. Garg,

Thank you once again. I still think it would not hurt to keep the ID pending till we are more certain. Perhaps someone will shine a light on this some day.

Warm regards,

Ashwini

[J.M. Garg]

Flora of China says Petals oblong-obovate, base narrower, lateral ones bearded, anterior one shorter, inside deep-colored veined;

Flora of Pakistan says Petals oblanceolate-obovate, obtuse, marked with dark coloured violet lines, bearded above with short hairs, the upper petal smaller than the rest and acute.

Your petals in the images come within the parameters (possibly will become more clear on dissection) and appears variable in the same plant and location.

So I still remain with  Viola pilosa

[J.M. Garg]

I have seen that colour of petals is very much variable in Viola species.

Flora of China says Flowers purplish or white, medium-sized;

Flora of Pakistan says Flowers small, 3.5 cm long, resupinate, whitish blue.

You can also fine hairs on the inner portion of the lateral petals.

Flora of China says styles clavate, base slightly geniculate, gradually thickened upward; stigmas ± flat, not margined, very inconspicuously short beaked in front, with smaller stigma hole at tip of beak.

So to see this feature with naked eyes may be difficult and may vary depending upon the time period since opening of flowers and weathering state.

This species is quite variable can be seen from numerous synonyms and wide distribution as per Catalogue of Life

On Fri, 27 Mar 2020 at 13:47, Ashwini Bhatia <mcleo...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ashwini Bhatia]

I agree Mr. Garg that Viola is a difficult genus. Anterior one shorter or the upper petal smaller than the rest and acute does not clearly apply to my samples. I have dissected the flower and looked at the petals, sepals, stamens, style and stipules closely.

FOP and FOC do not agree on all the features and that shows there is a confusion in the literature too. But since I do not know which one to prefer, I am unsure of our flower’s identity.

FOP says beak directed downward, while the beak on my sample is pointing upwards. It says style 3.5mm long, ours is barely 2mm long.

FOC says spur of anterior stamens angular and ca. 1.5mm long, our stamens have more cylindrical spurs (nectary appendages or glands) which are twice as long at 3mm. 

Both FOC and FOP say that the colour is variable from purple, whitish-blue to white. The whole population in Dharamshala is uniformly violet with very little variation.

Also the comment at the end of the FOC description says : In FRPS (51: 90. 1991), the name Viola canescens Wallich was misapplied to this species.

which makes me think that the flowers we consider as V. canescens here could very well be the V. pilosa. The ones I have filed under V. canescens have all the characters of the description above too with minor variations. Hence the persisting confusion.

We may find out in the end that the species here is indeed V. pilosa with good reason but I am personally happy to wait for more evidence.

Thank you.

Warm regards,

Ashwini

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Ashwini ji, for your deep research.

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Ashwini ji, for your persistence and continued efforts to nail down the id.

I am also now wearing towards Viola indica (which I was mostly unaware of before).

Pl. show us the clear view of the spur.

[Ashwini Bhatia]

Dear Mr. Garg,

I am sending again the side view of the spur and photos showing the stoloniferous nature of the plant. Photos showing other important characteristics of the plant are in the same email thread.

Thank you for persisting with it.

With regards,

Ashwini

[J.M. Garg]

Yes. After going through all our posts and details therein, I agree with you for V. Indica.
It is so nice to have a member like you who always goes into the bottom of the issue.

--
With regards,
J. M. Garg

[Ashwini Bhatia]

Thank you Mr. Garg. I merely suggested that our flowers looked close to V. indica on FOI but I am not sure whether our flowers are V. indica. For one thing, our flowers have no aroma which indica flowers are supposed to have. So I am still confused.

Plantsoftheworldonline refers to the following document in support of the name:

• Kumar, S. (2012). Herbaceous flora of Jaunsar-Bawar (Uttarkhand), India: enumerations Phytotaxonomy 12: 33-56.

But I cannot find this paper online. If someone has access to it, it will be useful to see what the author gives a description of V. indica.

I will be on a lookout for more information on the species and report back if I find something useful.

With regards,

Ashwini

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Ashwini ji,

I tried but could not find it anywhere.

Marking to Pankaj ji, if he can help in the matter to get us 'Kumar, S. (2012). Herbaceous flora of Jaunsar-Bawar (Uttarkhand), India: enumerations Phytotaxonomy 12: 33-56.'

[Ashwini Bhatia]

Thank you Mr. Garg.

Regards,

Ashwini

[J.M. Garg]

Further Bibliography is at IBIS flora :

Title	Book	Book Author	Book Year
Viola indica W.Becker	Flora of Jammu & Kashmir	N.P.Singh (Ed.), D.K.Singh (Ed.) & B.P.Uniyal (Ed.)	2 002
Viola indica W.Becker	Flora of India	B.D.Sharma (Ed.) & N.P.Balakrishnan (Ed.)	1 993
Viola indica W.Becker	Flowering Plants of India, Nepal & Bhutan	H.B.Naithani	1 990
Viola indica W.Becker	Fascicles of Flora of India	S.P.Banerjee 7 B.B.Pramanik	1 983

[Ashwini Bhatia]

Thank you once again. Unfortunately, I do not own any of these books. Perhaps someone on the group has and can help with the relevant page.

[Pankaj Kumar]

This journal is not online. It is published from Delhi, so someone from Delhi University would be helpful. I have added one student from DU on the email.

Thanks and regards

Pankaj

--

**********************************************************************************************************************
Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D.
IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia

Office:

Orchid Conservation Section

Flora Conservation Department

Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation
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[Ashwini Bhatia]

Thank you Pankaj ji. Really appreciate your help with this.

Regards,

Ashwini

[J.M. Garg]

Tentatively taking it as Viola indica as per discussions at Viola indica from Dhanaulti, Uttarakhand

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Ashwini Bhatia <ash...@ashwinibhatia.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 at 23:32
Subject: [efloraofindia:240314] V. pilosa (V. serpens)? ABMAR01/05
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>

These flowers are very abundant in our area (much more so than V. canescens) and I find them scattered everywhere on the hill sides on my daily walks. I have been seeing them since January but they started coming out in good numbers around mid-February. These are larger lilac/lavender flowers with broad lower lip and a hint of contrasting bright yellow around the stigma. The runners are quite common and the stipules toothed. I have seen several capsules with sepals and stigma still attached. The leaves and stems are softly hairy but much less so than those of V. canescens.

Now the troubling part. While typing this message and looking at my data closely, I have managed to convince myself that I am not certain of its ID. Here is why:

Viola serpens is a synonym of Viola pilosa which is now the accepted name according to the Plant List;

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/tro-33801418

A search for V. pilosa on FlowersofIndia.net shows a completely different flower but Alok Mahendroo ji’s blog shows the same flower as the one below under V. serpens. If they are synonyms then I am baffled yet again. There is more—flowersofindia gives V. serpens as a synonym also of V. indica (an unresolved name according to the Plant List), the photos of which look very similar to my sample, but my flowers are definitely not fragrant. It could be that V. pilosa has great variation in colour, size and shape and that my sample is V. pilosa aka V. serpens.

First here is a page from the Linnean Society Journal which lists V. canescens as white and much smaller that V. serpens. My flower matches the description of V. serpens.

I am not sure how to proceed from here. Is my sample V. pilosa or a hybrid or a local variation? Is it a variety of Viola canina? I am in great need of 

expert advice. Please help.

Thanks.

Ashwini

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[Saroj Kasaju]

Did you check Flora of Bhutan keys Mr. Garg ?

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/CA%2BiuSFAN-PN8yvKWGd%2Bbwd1xmxRUQrZJ8O4%2BC6aFnR9ZqhgtQA%40mail.gmail.com.

[J.M. Garg]

Viola indica is not found in Bhutan.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/CAEf%3DytQ8DPknBdD5jA9nnJznQCsPow6g%2BDsAJ9wk3HrYFYrokQ%40mail.gmail.com.