Hooghly Today : Sonchus riddle

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surajit koley

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Dec 4, 2012, 11:11:47 AM12/4/12
to efloraofindia
Sir,

I hope this is Sonchus arvensis Linnaeus (বন-পালং), as in my earlier post at - https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/ZlmjKtsjUr4/discussion.

It's an experience to look back into history :-

surajit
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Gurcharan Singh

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Dec 4, 2012, 4:51:28 PM12/4/12
to surajit koley, efloraofindia
Sonchus arvensis without any doubt.


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089


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surajit koley

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Dec 4, 2012, 8:51:50 PM12/4/12
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Good morning Sir

It was the information found in FoC page of Sonchus wightianus Candolle that created confusion to me. According to FoC, "Sonchus wightianus has frequently been misidentified with the habitually similar Sonchus arvensis, and the later is a hybrid, restricted to Europe & North America ......"

Thank you very much for the ID and confirming one more time.

Regards,

surajit

Gurcharan Singh

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Dec 5, 2012, 1:12:33 AM12/5/12
to surajit koley, efloraofindia
No Surajit ji
I have to thank you for highlighting information in Flora of China. I will check my specimens with the key and find out. In the mean time you may also do the same for your above specimens.


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089


Dr Pankaj Kumar

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Dec 5, 2012, 1:34:00 AM12/5/12
to indian...@googlegroups.com
Here is the protologue of Sonchus wightianus. Let me know if you need help in translation. It also has the description of arvensis from Linne.
Best regards
Pankaj

Dr Pankaj Kumar

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Dec 5, 2012, 1:37:30 AM12/5/12
to indian...@googlegroups.com
And here is the article by Kim et al. 2007.

Pankaj


On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 00:11:47 UTC+8, surajitkoley wrote:
KIM ET AL 2007.pdf

surajit koley

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Dec 5, 2012, 1:54:16 PM12/5/12
to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia
Sir,

Attaching three photos of achene, recorded today.

FoC informs - "The diploid S. wightianus has adaxially often reddish marginal florets....".... a point in favour of S. wightianus

But points against S. wightianus, as described in FoC, are :-

1, Flower and fruit from January to October... -- i am watching this plant since last year, it starts growing in October-November and starts flowering at the end of November. Rest of the year the plant is unnoticeable.
2. Middle and upper stem leaves elliptic to lanceolate, smaller -- but, in my species except for the top most leaves all leaves are equal and sometimes middle leaves bigger.
3. Achene...... with 1(or 2) weakly prominent main rib(s) and several secondary ribs on either face -- in my species all ribs are prominent
4. Pappus 6-9 mm -- the first picture (8799.jpg), attached herewith & though not scaled, clearly shows longer pappus as in S. arvensis described in FoA. I come to this conclusion by comparing the achene size with the pappus size (at least 3 times that of an achene).

Thank you & Regards,

surajit
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surajit koley

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Dec 5, 2012, 1:57:13 PM12/5/12
to Dr Pankaj Kumar, indian...@googlegroups.com
Thank you very much Pankaj Ji, but couldn't understand anything, and won't try for a second time.

Regards,

surajit


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Gurcharan Singh

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Dec 5, 2012, 2:24:09 PM12/5/12
to surajit koley, Dr Pankaj Kumar, indian...@googlegroups.com
Pankaj ji 
I think you missed attachment of protologue.


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089


--
 
 
 



Pankaj Kumar

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Dec 5, 2012, 7:52:56 PM12/5/12
to Gurcharan Singh, surajit koley, indian...@googlegroups.com
Here is the protologue of Sonchus wightianus..
--
**********************************************************************
"Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!"

Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D.
Conservation Officer

Office:
Orchid Conservation Section
Flora Conservation Department
Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation
Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.

Residence:
151, 1st Floor, Tai Om Tsuen
Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.

email: pku...@kbfg.org; sahani...@gmail.com; pankaj...@rediffmail.com
Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251
(mobile). Fax: +852 2483 7194
WIGHTIANUS N ARVENSIS.jpg

Dr Pankaj Kumar

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Dec 5, 2012, 8:39:59 PM12/5/12
to indian...@googlegroups.com, gunjan sud
Dear Mr. Surajit
I was reading some of your mails above. Indeed you jumped deep into it and this is really nice of you to have so much of patience.
There is one issue here I think  Many of the characters you are talking about are so variable that they cant be trusted to define a species based on morphology.
According to the protologue if you can see, both species are written as PERENNIAL.
Leaves in both are heteromorphic and hence there is no distinct shape and size, unless and untill one it toooooo long or tooooo short. Even the margin shape is not consistent.
The prominence of ribs of achenes also depends on how dry the seeds are.
Pappus is 6-9mm in one and 8-14mm in another, so this is slightly overlapping too.
I am forwarding this to Gunjan Sud also. May be she can dig something out of it.
Best of luck.
Pankaj




On Wednesday, 5 December 2012 00:11:47 UTC+8, surajitkoley wrote:

surajit koley

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Dec 5, 2012, 8:53:29 PM12/5/12
to Dr Pankaj Kumar, indian...@googlegroups.com, gunjan sud
Good morning and thanks Dr. P. K. S.

Regards,

surajit


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surajit koley

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Mar 6, 2013, 9:06:27 AM3/6/13
to J.M. Garg, indian...@googlegroups.com
Garg Sir,


Is it Sonchus arvensis? Or is it also an eye-opener?

Regards,

surajit
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