Helvetica Oblique and Bold-Oblique missing
Valter Viglietti - Frame Studio
Today I began working on a new customer's job, I have to update a book's
previous edition. When I imported an EPS map, ID pointed out some fonts were
missing in my system: opening the EPS in AI, I found the missing fonts are
Helvetica Oblique and Bold-Oblique.
Checking into Font Book, those fonts are really missing (Regular and Bold
are present). :-o
I checked System/Library/Fonts, "Helvetica.dfont" is present (but I can't
check its content). I deleted it, copied the same file from the OSX 10.4
Install DVD (in case it's been corrupted), restarted the Mac: same result.
:-(
What happened? How can I have the original full Helvetica set back?
I'm afraid to install my old Helvetica Type 1 font into OSX, because I know
this could conflict with the default OSX fonts (IIRC).
I'm using Apple's Font Book to manage my fonts. I know it's not the best,
but for my need has been ok (until now).
TIA,
Valter
Bret Perry
>>Bold-Oblique.
Most likely your problem is corrupt font caches.
Font caches are file that store a parsed version of the font that the
system uses to render fonts more quickly.
They tend to get corrupted fairly often. When that happens they need to be
deleted and then you restart immediately and they get rebuilt.
See end of this email for more info about Helvetica.dfont
**You could try just restarting with the shift key held down and then
restart again.**
**That will rebuild quite a few caches... Sometimes that is all you need.**
You could/should buy a font cache cleaner, such as Font Nuke (free), Font
Finagler (free to try), Snow Leopard Cache Cleaner (Free to try-does way
more than font caches) or Smasher ($50, but can be automatic), or Font
Doctor (pricey, comes free with Suitcase Fusion, also repairs font files
not just caches)
**Or you could install AppleJack (free) and run it... It does quite a few
maintenance things, It is run in single-user mode, which seems scary but
it's not really -- install applejack, restart with the "s" key held down,
wait for the Applejack prompt (ignore all the gibberish before it) and
then at the Applejack prompt, type "AUTO restart" and hit enter.
http://www.macupdate.com/find/mac/applejack
Instead of one of those cleaning applications, you can clean font caches
by hand:
If you are using Font Book, (bad idea in a design environment) -- look for
any preference files that have to do with fonts and finder prefs in your
HD/Library/Preferences folder and your home (user)/Library/Preferences
folders -- delete those and restart.
If you are not afraid of Terminal, you can type these commands to clear
Apple's font cache-Then RESTART immediately:
atsutil databases -removeUser
atsutil server -shutdown
For Adobe's font caches, you can use a program like EasyFind or Find All
Files and search for all files that have ".lst" in their names and delete
them all and restart.
Don't delete any that don't also have "Adobe" in their name. You cannot
search with Spotlight or the system's Find because they don't look in the
system folders you need cleaned.
For Microsoft programs, delete these files (depending on your version, I
don't yet know where 2011 cache is:
(~ = user's home folder)
~/Library/Caches/com.microsoft.browserfont.cache
~/Library/"Preferences/Microsoft/Office Font Cache
~/Library/"/Preferences/Microsoft/Office 2008/Office Font Cache
If you have Quark, delete:
/Applications/"QuarkXPress 8/Preferences/jaws/FontStubs
And/or
~/Library/"Preferences/Quark/QuarkXPress 8/jaws/FontStubs
Bad font caches for ANY program can affect fonts in other programs, so
clean them all.
P.S.
The Helvetica.dfont is a data-fork font.
Unless it is damaged, it contains Helvetica, Bold, Oblique and
Bold-Oblique.
BUT that type of font is not intended for use in a print project.
Many RIPs cannot process it for prepress.
Printers often have a converted version of it that they can substitute,
but you are better off avoiding it.
The best course is to buy an Opentype version of Helvetica like Helvetica
LT Std (Helvetica Linotype Standard) and install that and use it in any
print job instead of "Helvetica".
If you spend a few bucks to do that, you'll save a ton of time messing
with Helvetica in the system.
Same applies to Helvetica Neue and any other system font you use in design
work.
The fonts are identical except for their name and format. Reflow should be
minimal.
You can also remove the Helvetica.dfont or others from your system IF you
replace them with a Postscript font with the same name e.g. "Helvetica"
To keep the .dfont from reinstalling, you need to also delete the systems
"extra" copy -- see
http://www.extensis.com/en/downloads/document_download.jsp?docId=5600039
And download "Best Practices for Managing Fonts in Mac OS X - 7th Edition
(updated: Nov. 2010)" -- it will tell you how to do all these things and
more.
Bret Perry
Studio IT Manager/Production Artist
ph 626-463-9365
fax 626-449-2201
bpe...@russreid.com
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Valter Viglietti - Frame Studio
> Most likely your problem is corrupt font caches.
Wow! Thank you very much for your plentiful help! :-)))
> **Or you could install AppleJack (free) and run it...
I should have thought about caches... :-o
I already got Applejack, so I did run it with "AUTO", but it didn't change
anything. I even cleared my User caches.
Besides, when checking I noticed the problem just happens in Adobe apps (ID,
Illustrator, Freehand MX).
Within MS Word, OOo and Bean, Helvetica appears full set.
So the System's "Helvetica.dfont" file should be ok, and the problem should
be something Adobe-related...
> For Adobe's font caches, you can use a program like EasyFind or Find All
> Files and search for all files that have ".lst" in their names and delete
> them all and restart.
Hence I deleted all Adobe's "font" something ".lst" files.
Nothing changed.
Thinking the Adobe apps use their own fonts, I did a search (with EasyFind)
on "Helve", but I didn't find any Helvetica file in Adobe folders.
I just found these:
/System/Library/Fonts/Helvetica.dfont
/System/Library/Fonts/Helvetica LT MM
/System/Library/Fonts/HelveLTMM
/OS9 System Folder/Font/Helvetica
No Helvetica anywere, save for the System one.
Quite puzzling. :-?
How could the Adobe apps seeing that Helvetica differently than other apps?
(and after I reset any font cache)
> You can also remove the Helvetica.dfont or others from your system IF you
> replace them with a Postscript font with the same name e.g. "Helvetica"
I could do that... but if the problem is Adobe related (not System-wide),
I'm afraid it won't be solved.
Thanks again for your information, much appreciated. :-)
C F Majors
Check that one.
Also, is there a fonts folder in the job folder??
I share your frustration w this problem.
On Saturday, March 12, 2011, Valter Viglietti - Frame Studio
> --
> you are subscribed to "InDesign talk" on Google Groups, to post: send email to indesi...@googlegroups.com, to unsubscribe: send email to indesign-tal...@googlegroups.com, for more options visit http://groups.google.com/group/indesign-talk
>
--
Carol Majors / Publications unltd
Raleigh NC
. . . . . . . . . . . .
Valter Viglietti - Frame Studio
> OS9 -- helvetica.
>
> Check that one.
Replaced with a backup: nope.
Anyway, it would be odd that Adobe CS3 apps would be influenced by Classic
fonts...
BTW, Helvetica in Classic has full set (just as OSX does).
The problem happens ONLY within Adobe apps (ID CS3, AI CS3, FH MX).
> Also, is there a fonts folder in the job folder??
Which "job" folder?
The only folder I have with "job" in its name, is:
/System/Library/Printers/Libraries/PrintJobMgr
Bret Perry
From Extensis' Font-best-practices:
Classic fonts:
... These fonts are specifically for use with the Classic environment.
NOTE: Fonts in this folder are active even if the Classic environment is
not running...
But in theory classic fonts are lowest on the font hierarchy and System
fonts folder should over-ride them.
If the hierarchy really worked well, font conflicts would never be an
issue, so I wouldn't count on the hierarchy...
What happens if you remove the classic fonts (temporarily) and restart?
Or perhaps better, if you keep classic fonts and remove helvetica.dfont
from System fonts instead -- (it should use classic helvetica then,
classic does not need to be running for it's fonts to load).
If I remember correctly, with Classic loaded, I needed the helvetica.dfont
to make PDFs in Quark and otherwise the classic fonts were enough...
For any of these "tests" you might need to clean caches again to see
results...
By "Jobs" folder, Carol meant is there a "Document Fonts" folder in the
InDesign file's folder (which would happen if the job had been packaged).
But memory is fading, I don't think CS3 had "job fonts" -- CS5 will
actually use the fonts in the Job Folder FIRST (often causing font issues)
but I don't think CS3 did(??)
**As it is Adobe apps only the are affected, you could try removing all
fonts from /Library/Application Support/Adobe/Fonts
And putting those you need in a system font folder like /Library/Fonts ...
**
If you are running Classic, you must be running Tiger or earlier-- of
course Apple has depreciated Tiger and no longer supports it officially
for security updates, etc.
So you are "vulnerable" to exploits -- nothing to do with your font
issues, just something to keep in mind--no one is watching your back
security-wise.
Last-ditch effort--in your emails, I don't see that you diligently hunted
down any "Font Book" and Finder preferences and ALL of deleted those.
Sorry, can't remember all the files--I have avoided Font Book for a long
time-- using it can cause all sorts of havoc in a design environment, so
maybe research to be sure you got all the font book - finder related prefs
squashed. I would avoid Font Book and just use System folders and restarts
to manage fonts, and if you have enough fonts that you need to turn them
off and on, seriously consider a professional font manger. In my
experience, just opening Font Book can cause weird things to happen if you
have a lot of fonts to manage.
I'd go into Font Book and turn all fonts on, then delete:
file:///Users/bperry/Library/Preferences/com.apple.ATS.plist (can't
remember if this one existed in Tiger, if not, there is another instead,
and there may be more for you in other prefs folders).
file:///Users/bperry/Library/Preferences/com.apple.finder.plist
file:///Users/bperry/Library/Preferences/com.apple.FontBook.plist
(and any others you can discover) Clear all font caches, And restart...
Sometimes I have to clear all caches 2 or 3 times with restart to get it
to work.
On 3/12/11 5:19 PM, "Valter Viglietti - Frame Studio"
<frame....@fastwebnet.it> wrote:
>--
>you are subscribed to "InDesign talk" on Google Groups, to post: send
>email to indesi...@googlegroups.com, to unsubscribe: send email to
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>
Bret Perry
Thomas Phinney
are not present as separate fonts in the dfont file, but are
synthesized by the OS by automatically obliquing the upright fonts.
Adobe CS apps mostly don't recognize such synthetic fonts, and require
real fonts with their own unique outline files.
Incidentally, Suitcase Fusion 3 now offers integrated font cache
cleaning (Mac only) right in the application itself. However, I do not
believe that is the problem in this particular case.
Regards,
T
On Mar 11, 11:30 am, Bret Perry <bpe...@russreid.com> wrote:
> >>Valter wrote: I found the missing fonts are Helvetica Oblique and
> >>Bold-Oblique.
>
> Most likely your problem is corrupt font caches.
> Font caches are file that store a parsed version of the font that the
> system uses to render fonts more quickly.
> They tend to get corrupted fairly often. When that happens they need to be
> deleted and then you restart immediately and they get rebuilt.
> See end of this email for more info about Helvetica.dfont
>
> **You could try just restarting with the shift key held down and then
> restart again.**
> **That will rebuild quite a few caches... Sometimes that is all you need.**
>
> You could/should buy a font cache cleaner, such as Font Nuke (free), Font
> Finagler (free to try), Snow Leopard Cache Cleaner (Free to try-does way
> more than font caches) or Smasher ($50, but can be automatic), or Font
> Doctor (pricey, comes free with Suitcase Fusion, also repairs font files
> not just caches)
>
> **Or you could install AppleJack (free) and run it... It does quite a few
> maintenance things, It is run in single-user mode, which seems scary but
> it's not really -- install applejack, restart with the "s" key held down,
> wait for the Applejack prompt (ignore all the gibberish before it) and
steve harley
>>>Valter wrote: I found the missing fonts are Helvetica Oblique and
>>>Bold-Oblique.
>
> Most likely your problem is corrupt font caches.
i don't think it's _most_ likely, but this was definitely more
prevalent in 10.4, which Valter is running ...
> **You could try just restarting with the shift key held down and then
> restart again.**
> **That will rebuild quite a few caches... Sometimes that is all you need.**
perfect starting move -- this will rebuild the OS font caches
the ones that are left are the Adobe caches (and Microsoft, Quark
etc.), but note that in Valter's description he sees the problem in
Font Book so these application caches aren't relevant; he can stop
here on the caches and save a lot of time "fixing" things that aren't
related to the problem
> You could/should buy a font cache cleaner,
IMO, one should not pay for a font "cleaner"; this is like buying $100
cables for your stereo -- don't do it; if you can't just hold the
shift key down, use a freebie, and chose one that is focused on the
task at hand (like Font Nuke, though Font Nuke has that too-tempting
"Reset Spotlight" checkbox); note that in response to your suggestion
Valter ran AppleJack on Auto mode -- this took a lot longer than
necessary and also will slow his system while it rebuilds all its
caches (not just font caches)
> For Adobe's font caches, you can use a program like EasyFind or Find All
> Files and search for all files that have ".lst" in their names and delete
> them all and restart.
not at all necessary for Valter's symptoms, but a more focused search
would be "adobefnt .lst" (note the space between t and .) -- the
result will be the files you can delete
and you shouldn't need to restart the computer at this point unless
you have something like an Acrobat background process running
steve harley
> **As it is Adobe apps only the are affected, you could try removing all
> fonts from /Library/Application Support/Adobe/Fonts
> And putting those you need in a system font folder like /Library/Fonts ...
> **
Valter didn't say that; he said he noted the problem in Font Book, so
it's clearly not an Adobe-specific problem
Valter Viglietti - Frame Studio
> I believe the problem here is that Helvetica Oblique and Bold Oblique
> are not present as separate fonts in the dfont file, but are
> synthesized by the OS by automatically obliquing the upright fonts.
Mhh. It could be...
To avoid that possibility, I tried (in Word X, OOo, Bean) to set BIG text
(say 72pt and over) to the missing fonts (Italic, BoldItalic). And they
looked fine.
In OS9, if they were "fake" fonts, on BIG sizes the on-screen result were
awful.
Does OSX render perfect on-screen "fake" fonts? If it does, then you could
be right (fonts missing at OSX level, not at Adobe apps level).
> Adobe CS apps mostly don't recognize such synthetic fonts, and require
> real fonts with their own unique outline files.
I know. But I don't own any non-Adobe OSX page-layout app (not using "fake"
fonts, I mean) to check.
Well, I have Freehand MX... but I can't decide if it's Adobe or not. ;-D
Regarding Classic, Freehand 9 (not using "fake" fonts) confirms Helvetica is
full set in Classic.
I didn't have time to test Bret suggestions yet... in the meantime, thank
you all for your help. :-)
Valter Viglietti - Frame Studio
>> Most likely your problem is corrupt font caches.
>
> i don't think it's _most_ likely, but this was definitely more
> prevalent in 10.4, which Valter is running ...
But I did reset all of them (User included), so it shouldn't be the caches.
> not at all necessary for Valter's symptoms, but a more focused search
> would be "adobefnt .lst" (note the space between t and .) -- the
> result will be the files you can delete
Deleted all "Adobefnt..." files, nope.
> Valter didn't say that; he said he noted the problem in Font Book, so
> it's clearly not an Adobe-specific problem
You're RIGHT! :-o
I didn't think of that... this clearly indicates the problem is at OSX level
(not Adobe's).
I was misleaded by Word/OOo/Bean showing the missing fonts (but, as Thomas
pointed out, they should have been "fake").
The last attempt I can think of, is one from Bret: getting rid of any
FontBook pref file.
Bret Perry
problem IS FontBook... Forgive my jabbering..
Valter -- Classic fonts should render crisply in Classic apps.
If you are seeing jaggies, then the printer font is not loading ... So
something is amiss with your classic Helveticas... You should see all
Classic styles in FontBook.
You do have all 4 printer fonts and 4 "screen" fonts? (OSX likes screen
fonts "loose", not in a In a suitcase.)
Is your Type 1 Helvetica really old? (as new as possible is best,
certainly avoid older than 1992)
I still recommend a new Opentype Helvetica to avoid any .dfont issues
$100 is not cheap, but your time may be worth it.
On 3/14/11 7:28 PM, "steve harley" <garba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>perfect starting move -- this will rebuild the OS font caches
>
>the ones that are left are the Adobe caches (and Microsoft, Quark
>etc.), but note that in Valter's description he sees the problem in
>Font Book so these application caches aren't relevant; he can stop
>here on the caches and save a lot of time "fixing" things that aren't
>related to the problem
Well, not entirely. Font caches from *any* application can affect other
applications (or so says Extensis)
>
>
>> You could/should buy a font cache cleaner,
>
>IMO, one should not pay for a font "cleaner"; this is like buying $100
>cables for your stereo -- don't do it; if you can't just hold the
>shift key down, use a freebie, and chose one that is focused on the
>task at hand (like Font Nuke, though Font Nuke has that too-tempting
>"Reset Spotlight" checkbox); note that in response to your suggestion
>Valter ran AppleJack on Auto mode -- this took a lot longer than
>necessary and also will slow his system while it rebuilds all its
>caches (not just font caches
Yes, I was just being comprehensive -- I am prone to verbosity and
details... (sorry)
I use a bash script myself...
But thought maybe Valter (and others) already own some cleaners (that come
with Suitcase, FontAgent Pro, etc. -- Applejack IS a bit too much, but
does do the job...
Font Nuke did not work well for me in tiger. Haven't tried it in Leopard.
Smasher didn't work for me in auto mode, but manual smash did. Haven't
tried either in Leopard.
>
>> For Adobe's font caches, you can use a program like EasyFind or Find All
>> Files and search for all files that have ".lst" in their names and
>>delete
>> them all and restart.
>
>not at all necessary for Valter's symptoms, but a more focused search
>would be "adobefnt .lst" (note the space between t and .) -- the
>result will be the files you can delete
Hmmm, THANKS, I didn't think of using a space like that, NEAT, I'll find a
use for that I'm sure.
Of course that won't find:
~/Library/Caches/Acrobat/9.0_x86/AcroFnt09.lst
~/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Adobe Illustrator
CS4/en_US/IllustratorFnt.lst
~/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Acrobat/9.0_x86/AdobeComFnt09.lst
~/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Acrobat/9.0_x86/AdobeCMapFnt09.lst
Don't we need to clean those, too? I actually use a bash script that looks
in various specific folders and deletes all .lst there (avoiding the
non-adobe files)
>and you shouldn't need to restart the computer at this point unless
>you have something like an Acrobat background process running
Or unless, like me you have to swap so many fonts on and off that most
other apps become unstable -- if you're not turning fonts off, then no
restart.
>--
>you are subscribed to "InDesign talk" on Google Groups, to post: send
>email to indesi...@googlegroups.com, to unsubscribe: send email to
>indesign-tal...@googlegroups.com, for more options visit
>http://groups.google.com/group/indesign-talk
>
Bret Perry
steve harley
> Thanks, Steve, excellent points ... I think you are right perhaps Valter's
> problem IS FontBook... Forgive my jabbering..
first of all, Thomas Phinney was right -- the Dfont doesn't have the
styles Valter is looking for; that doesn't necessarily explain
everything, so i would look at whether another Helvetica is available,
and whether the Dfont is interfering with the other Helvetica; corrupt
font caches could cause the system to fail to sort out the Helveticas
that are available
>
> On 3/14/11 7:28 PM, "steve harley" <garba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>perfect starting move -- this will rebuild the OS font caches
>>
>>the ones that are left are the Adobe caches (and Microsoft, Quark
>>etc.), but note that in Valter's description he sees the problem in
>>Font Book so these application caches aren't relevant; he can stop
>>here on the caches and save a lot of time "fixing" things that aren't
>>related to the problem
>
> Well, not entirely. Font caches from *any* application can affect other
> applications (or so says Extensis)
i haven't read the Extensis guide in a while, but i don't follow the
reasoning for that claim; as i recall, the guide does have clear
instructions for sorting out Helveticas, though (as long as it hasn't
dropped the 10.4-relevant instructions)
> Hmmm, THANKS, I didn't think of using a space like that, NEAT, I'll find a
> use for that I'm sure.
> Of course that won't find:
> ~/Library/Caches/Acrobat/9.0_x86/AcroFnt09.lst
> ~/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Adobe Illustrator
> CS4/en_US/IllustratorFnt.lst
> ~/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Acrobat/9.0_x86/AdobeComFnt09.lst
> ~/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Acrobat/9.0_x86/AdobeCMapFnt09.lst
>
>
> Don't we need to clean those, too?
it won't find those, but Adobe itself only recommends deleting
AdobeFnt*.lst; so it comes down to who do you trust on which Adobe
cache files to delete ... but then Adobe also says to use Spotlight,
which is going to miss several folders:
<http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/327/327791.html>
you could do the search on "adobe .lst" to get AdobeCom, AdobeSys &
AdobeCMAP (to do this with EasyFind check the "all words" radio
button)
>>and you shouldn't need to restart the computer at this point unless
>>you have something like an Acrobat background process running
>
> Or unless, like me you have to swap so many fonts on and off that most
> other apps become unstable -- if you're not turning fonts off, then no
> restart.
i was saying that deleting the Adobe caches, specifically, does not
require a restart unless a background tool is actually using those
caches (something like a background RIP is in progress)
Thomas Phinney
> first of all, Thomas Phinney was right -- the Dfont doesn't have the
> styles Valter is looking for; that doesn't necessarily explain
> everything, so i would look at whether another Helvetica is available,
> and whether the Dfont is interfering with the other Helvetica; corrupt
> font caches could cause the system to fail to sort out the Helveticas
> that are available
just didn't give enough detail in my original note because I was on
the iPhone, and lengthy typing was awkward. Sorry about that.
If I recall correctly, this is not your everyday case where some
families just don't have certain styles and the OS synthesizes them
when somebody applies a bold or italic. Instead, the what-used-to-be-
resource-fork data in the dfont says to take the base font and slant
it a specific amount. This is producing much nicer results than the
standard OS slanting, because the latter is usually about 20 degrees,
whereas a "normal" oblique or italic is usually about 9-12 degrees.
Anyway, I believe the answer is to just use a different Helvetica. If
you must use one with a conflicting name, you can uninstall the system
Helvetica if necessary. Apple has made it harder in recent OS
revisions, but I don't think it's too tough in 10.4.
Our white paper on font management in OS X covers the topic of
switching Helveticas, though it may have dropped 10.4 specific info:
http://www.extensis.com/en/downloads/document_download.jsp?docId=5600039
Cheers,
T
Valter Viglietti - Frame Studio
I did several attempts deleting each instance of Helvetica in my System and
clearing the caches, but the problem persisted.
In the end, I deleted EVERY System's Helvetica and put a new OTF Helvetica
in my User/Library/Fonts folder.
Voilà, I got the full Helvetica set back. :-)
I therefore exported in PDF the ID book I have been working on, and the
Helvetica came out fine.
I don't really know what was wrong with the "old" Helveticas...
and I don't care much. OSX behaves oddly sometimes... ;-)
(Unix is an hard beast to tame)
Thank you very much for any help that was offered here. I appreciated every
hint, and I would have lost much more time without your guidance.
This group really rocks!!! :-D
Thanks again,
Valter