An open source successor to Incursion

[K M]

I am making an open-source successor to Incursion. We're at beta 4.3 right now.

Note that this is not an attempt to exactly clone Julian Mensch's game, rather to build on the same ideas.
For example, I am sticking to d20's spells system instead of mana and there will be no "you are empty-handed!" anti-feature. The dungeon is not limited either.

https://github.com/Zireael07/The-Veins-of-the-Earth

Anyone want to contribute?


***

Features:

• brand-new start-up screen and menu [standalone version only]
• new old gold and black UI skin
• 32x32 tiles by Daniel E. Gervais & my edits
• controls displayed automatically at game start
• 10 classes: barbarian, bard, cleric, druid, fighter, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, wizard (with specialist schools [Seb]), warlock
• 2 prestige classes: shadowdancer, assasin
• 13 races: human, half-elf, half-drow, gnome, halfling, elf, dwarf, half-orc; drow, duergar, deep gnomes
• backgrounds for quicker character creation; basic rules info while creating a character
• attributes can be generated either via rolling or via point buy
• random name generator taking into account your character's race and sex
• Effective Character Level
• XP for killing monsters, descending deeper, disarming traps
• multiclassing (with ability score requirements) & prestige classes & favored classes
• complete, colored character sheet with tooltips displaying rules info
• randomized unarmed and weapon damage; archery and reach weapons; two weapon fighting penalties & feats
• attack roll & AC & critical hits & offhand attack (including double weapons) & iterative attacks
• death at -10 and detrimental effects both at 0 and in the -1 to -9 range
• saving throws [Seb]; now take the best of two stats (Dex-Int; Con-Str; Wis-Cha)
• inventory & encumbrance
• spellbook, an iconed hotbar for spells [Seb]; some 0, 1st, 2nd, 3rd level spells
• armor spell failure chance; key stat must be 9 to cast spells; casters gain access to next spell level every 3rd level
• skill checks (printed to log) including armor check penalty & racial or feat bonuses; opposed checks
• all weapons from SRD; magic armors and shields; magic weapons; light sources; magic items
• all feats from SRD except archery feats and unarmed combat feats
• item identification
• some monsters up to CR 8; CR displayed in tooltips; monsters drop equipment and corpses
• hp, exp, dungeon level on-screen display now with bars and color changing depending on the amount of HP left
• colored in-game help screen; legend screen; basic rules info
• colored tooltips (color-coded relative monster stats and CR); colored log messages; item tooltips both on ground and in inventory
• terrain effects
• resting takes 8 hours, monsters respawn on rest
• cure x wounds spells work in a traditional way; heal x wounds spells heal a percentage of total hp
• stairs have a chance of not changing the dungeon level [Seb]
• calendar
• hunger counter and display

[Jason Dixon]

I will generally approve of more people pushing roguelikes, but there's an important bit mentioned at the very start with which I must disagree.  Roguelikes and mana must go hand-in-hand.  The game is single-player-focused, and I promise you that a single wizard cannot hope to stand up to a den of kobolds at level one if we're using the Vancian (D&D) system of magic.  An exceptionally intelligent wizard will only have three level 1 spells.  Three magic missiles, total, or a Mage Armor (and their AC is lousy) and a Shield (low duration) and a missile.

As for the rest, I can only offer silent support.  I'm broke and I'm not a programmer.

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[K M]

Somehow, my level 1 wizard has 5 or 6 spells. So it's not as bad as it seems to you. It might be we pulled the 6 from a hat instead of checking the SRD, but still, it works.
If the Vancian system doesn't work, I might change it to mana, but so far it works fine. I've played NWN 1 and NWN 2 and IWD II with a wizard, and they all use Vancian, and play fine. And IWD II is basically a hack-and-slash, so...

[Jason Dixon]

NWN deviated from D&D design by letting you 'sleep' pretty much every time you cleared a room, and NWN2 didn't really take steps to change that.  If you're going straight by the SRD, you have, at level 1:  1 slot from class.  1 slot from specialization (if you specialized).  1 slot from Int bonus.  1 slot from exceptional (+5 or higher) Int bonus.

I played a ton of D&D, and I GM a Pathfinder game (20 months now, same game).  I'll happily playtest what you have once it's in a form so easy that a common schmuck can download and start.

[K M]

If you're on Windows, you can grab the Windows standalone.
We got the 6 number out of our *nowhere important* :P, but I'd like to make it 3 from class, 1 from spec, 1 from Int bonus.
After all, we're not replicating D&D *exactly* (see this)

[Holsety]

Arbitrary balance changes, whee!
Concentration has no business being Int-based, it's how well you can keep focus during physically taxing circumstances. Now you're just making the game easier for mages.
Spellcraft for druids? They're not trained/educated mages...
Sorcerers are already charisma-based, they don't need to get Diplomacy and Sense Motive as class skills. (Not to mention that wizzrads aren't exactly shrewd conversationalists...)
Those saving throw changes are especially bad. Your changes are making the game more bland and removing the difference/specialisation between classes.
There's a reason changes like this haven't been officially made (it's because they're bad). You can't have all the power with none of the drawbacks...

(also come oooooooooon, fort saves half damage for magic missile?)

[Frumple]

Balance discussion aside, it's good to see the T-Engine is treating a DnD inspired roguelike well. Didn't know you folks were intending to draw significant inspiration from Incursion, though. Might want to mention that on the module page, heh. Rather imagine there's a number of old Incursion players hanging around T4. Shoutout might draw some in, especially if the connection's notable in the gameplayer (though it definitely wasn't last time I tried Veins. That was one of the earlier betas. 3.1, by the look of it.) Here's hoping progress continues well into the future (even you don't net the 500 buck pot, heh.)!

[K M]

We changed Concentration to Int based because seriously, one skill using Constitution out of all 20 or whatever the total is? Unless we can make something else based on Con, this is just penalizing the player for not knowing the system. If you have any ideas about a Con-based skill, throw them out there...
We gave all casters Spellcraft just for the sake of clarity.
Point taken about Diplomacy and Sense Motive for sorcerers, although I was just trying to differentiate them more from wizards.
What do you mean about saving throw changes? The fractions gained on level up or the pick better out of two rule? The pick better out of two works fine in 4e and helps to avoid Multiple Ability Dependency.
And the saving throw for magic missile is there because otherwise MM could be just called "remove hp directly".

[Holsety]

But Concentration IS a con-based skill, that's just how it is. You're not penalizing the player for not knowing the system unless you hide the fact that it's a con-based skill.
It's there so wizards don't just nuke everything they run into, and it forces you to choose between a high-Int build where you have more spells or one that sacrifices some other stat so your spells don't get interrupted. By making it Int-based you're buffing Int-based-casters and nerfing Wis/Cha-based casters. When it's con-based (as the description suggests it should be :P) then all three flavors of caster have equal access to it.

Diplomacy and Sense Motive are feeling lonely with no Paladins around ;)

For saving throws I meant better-out-of-two. It's a bit silly, really? Let's say you have a fireball that lets you save with Dex. So a rogue could nimbly save reliably, but a clumsy wizard can't dodge a fireball at all. (Which makes sense, no?) Now you're letting the wizard somehow ace the REFLEX saving throw with his Int, which doesn't make sense...
Aside from not making "lore/fluff" sense it means that wizards are now as good at dodging spells and traps as rogues. ???
The fortitude saving throw (Con, now Con/Str) also doesn't add anything. Fighters will take both Con and Str anyway, while casters and rogues are likely to take neither. So there's no benefit to any class by the change to con/str. Fluff-wise though you're making a saving throw vs poison or disease with your FORTITUDE, which is tied directly to your constitution (ie physical toughness, overall healthyness), not your magnificent muscley arms. Being able to crush a boulder with your bare hands won't help when you have the sniffles... I don't see it helping (buff/nerf) anyone by being con/str, unless people like to build all-str no-con fighters.
The Will saving throw (Wis, now Wis/Cha) is all about how well you can resist mental influences with your willpower (which is a product of Wis). So while weak-minded fighters and easily-distracted wizards might be fooled by illusions, the down-to-earth Rangers/Druids or divinely-aided Clerics might be able to see past the trick. Let's be honest, nobody takes Cha in DnD inspired videogames. Unless you're a bard/sorcerer/paladin. Of these only the paladin is likely to have some Wis (but he's not in Veins anyway) so you're really only helping Sorcerers. You could make an argument that Cha is somehow willpower related since it's about force of personality, but that's just arguing for two stats (wis/cha) to do the same thing, and that's silly.
Also saving throws don't exist in 4e anymore... no wait they're more like static defenses.... no wait. Argh! Uh, just be careful applying 4e design principles to earlier PnP mechanics, there's a reason it's a seperate edition and not an expansion to 3.5e haha. I like this "multiple ability dependency" you speak of. Fighters want con/str/dex, mages want their primary caster stat + dex/con, but nobody has enough stat points to go around and make their perfect build. So you have to spread yourself thin, especially if you're an advanced class like bard or paladin. That's always been part of the charm, for me. Compared to being 18/00str, 18con, 18dex half-orc/half-giant barbarian. ;)

MM is "remove hp directly". No saves, ever. That's what the spell is all about. You're sacrificing a first-level spell slot to put in a 1d6 ranged damage hp removal.
You could have taken sleep, or color spray, or mage armor or something utility, but you don't have any damage output as low level mage. So you take some magic missiles.
They might do 2 damage, and you cry. Or they do 5 damage and you're pretty dang happy. But you can cast 3 at most (so 6-15 damage, 10ish average) (in regular srd) which means you can kill ONE beefy fighter, if you're LUCKY.
Later on you get stuff like fireball and acid arrow, which lets opponents save, but that doesn't matter because those spells do a HECK of a lot more damage.
To be fair when you're going up against later enemies you'll be shooting your five high level slots worth of "miniature imploding sun" that the enemy might save for half damage against instead of your 40 first level slots worth of "magic missile 1d4+1 damage". Magic missile is a low-level stepping stone to better spells, no sense nerfing it.
(Mostly I'm just a stickler for MUH TRADITION)
Besides, nerfing MM indirectly nerfs Missile Storm (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Missile_Storm_%283.5e_Spell%29) or the equally fun NWN variant Isaac's Greater Missile Storm (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Isaac%27s_greater_missile_storm). :D
I never keep using MM, even if it gives additional missiles to higher level mages.

OH WELL, that's all just me complaining. I like complaining, don't take it as a personal attack. I'm sure there's plenty of changes to be made so you can make SRD work in a videogame, some of the changes just look odd to me. I'm mostly familiar with 2e and 3.5e so when I see people change the rules (even 4e) my reflex tends to be a melodramatic NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Doesn't mean I won't play Veins in the end :B

[K M]

I get your being a stickler for tradition, and I don't mind the complaining, it's how we can improve Veins.
Speaking of "Let's be honest, nobody takes Cha in DnD inspired videogames." that's precisely one of the reasons for the better-one-of-two rule. One of the design goals was to make every attribute interesting and worth taking. Same for classes and skills. There's no point in having dump stats or dump skills or a class that nobody bothers to take, after all.

BTW there are more changes than the ones you pointed out, should I understand that you're pleased by the rest?

Also, if you have any ideas on how to make Paladins interesting by themselves, throw them out there. Paladins are not included [yet, everything is up for discussion] because personally, I'm allergic to their do-gooder and holier-than-thou attitudes, and Seb equates them to a fighter/cleric multiclass, so they're non-viable and non-interesting.

[Holsety]

Outside of games the whole appeal of paladins is roleplaying a do-gooder :V
Their interesting bits are passive immunity to fear and diseases, adding your Cha to saving throws and some healing abilties for self and others.
And since you're already likely to take some Cha, they play nice with Diplomacy. So you've got a heavily armored warrior who's unlikely to be stopped by fear, disease, traps, mental tricks or enemy magic. The unstoppable force of justice~ He just stinks as a caster probably (I always favored cha/con/str over wis) and doesn't fight as well as a fighter (due to not getting ALL THOSE FEATS).
Cleric is flat out a better holy caster, but doesn't get those passive immunities, which were always the draw for me.
So yeah, I don't think there's much lost with paladins being gone.

I don't mind the other changes you laid out. Most of those are necessary for making a videogame adaptation or just ease of use. Intimidate for fighters, intuition (which has an ID-role now?) for everyone, s'all fine probably. Lumping feats that people always take together into one is good too. Don't think anyone can sensibly implement initiative in a roguelike, haha. I just pointed out the ones that made no sense to me as far as pnp rulings go. Throwing out multiclass XP penalties is probably better for a videogame, they were only really in it for the balance of a group of people.

I get that you want to fight dump-stats and all that, but the better-of-two rule means that a high-dex rogue will have the same result as a high-int mage when walking through a corridor of traps. (ie lots of succesfull reflex saving throws) Which means that playing a mage loses the experience of "Better look out for traps, I'm a frail guy". And it's ONLY the wizard of all classes that gets buffed in this regard, since it's the only int-heavy class around.
The fort save change doesn't affect ANY class, and the will save change buffs bards/sorcs/warlocks. Which comes down to only fighters, wizards and rogues having shit will saves.
So that's a lot of indirect buffs to casters, who already are very strong lategame.

[Jason Dixon]

I think people are kind of missing an underlying point here...you don't invest in your Con for the Concentration bonus.  You invest in your Con for your HP and your Fort.  Also, over a large enough progression, variation in ability score modifiers tends to iron out.  Also, isn't Incursion a game where your stats can be trained?

[K M]

There is a beta module available from te4.org. (Install ToME 1.0.5., put module in the modules folder, enjoy!)
Report any missing tiles here. I want to get the best tileset I can before 1st Dec (the ending of the modules contest)

[Frumple]

On Friday, November 22, 2013 4:35:16 AM UTC-6, K M wrote:Also, if you have any ideas on how to make Paladins interesting by themselves, throw them out there.

Incursion actually does a pretty good job of it, imo. Crib some notes?

[Jason Dixon]

Pathfinder did a great job with paladins.  I'd almost allow a Pathfinder paladin in a regular D&D game.  Maybe toned down.  Anyway, some fancy auras or different smites would be snazzy, but Incursion's approach of giving them actual priest casting wasn't bad either.

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Frumple <sakkak...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, November 22, 2013 4:35:16 AM UTC-6, K M wrote:Also, if you have any ideas on how to make Paladins interesting by themselves, throw them out there.

Incursion actually does a pretty good job of it, imo. Crib some notes?

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[K M]

I focused on bugfixing in anticipation of the Dec 1, but I will try to squeeze the monk and the paladin in.

Also, someone suggested I make a separate mailing list for Veins - so, how do I go about creating a mailing list?

2013/11/23 Jason Dixon <moxiousm...@gmail.com>

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[K M]

Beta 4.4 "There's a lot of monsters out there" is now available, just in time for T-Engine module contest.

CHANGELOG:
* bug fix: not being able to use the mouse in some parts of the map
* bug fix: map being covered by the log/HUD
* bug fix: cross-class code now checks for the last leveled class
* bug fix: encumbrance penalties no longer stack ad infinitum for some weird reason
* bug fix: no more freezes due to running out of potion flavor names
* bug fix: no more lua error on stack tooltip
* bug fix: all innate spells now have a cooldown of 5

* player tile changes depending on his/her race and class (from 2nd turn onwards)
* new monsters: all monsters from SRD except demons, devils, dragons, lycanthropes, swarms & most animals which don't fit the dungeon theme
* new classes: monk & paladin
* you can now name your character yourself and/or reroll the random name multiple times
* loading tips added
* lowered ice DC as a temporary solution to the "fall-lock"
* water and stale foodstuffs are now edible
* more randomized magic items
* added feat description tooltips to character sheet
* added loading screen to module file
* added intro depending on player race

As you can see, the paladin and monk got squeezed in.

Standalone here module file here

[K M]

I've returned to coding after a hiatus and fixed some more bugs. Veins now has Sil-style XP for seeing monsters.

Still wondering how does one create a mailing list?

[Aaron Lambert]

You can just create a new Google Group. Go to groups.google.com and there will be a Create Group button at the top of the page. Individuals can join the group and any message posted to the group will be emailed out to subscribers. IMO that is the easiest way to create a mailing list.

Once the group is created, you can provide a link here and in places like rec.games.roguelike.misc or other roguelike websites so people know about it and can subscribe.

Aaron

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[K M]

Thanks a lot, I'm as bad at Google Groups as Journeyman.

For now, a new release while waiting to get a look at Incursion source.

***

I just put up a new version, nicknamed "Can't see me".

It's not on ModDB yet due to their authorisation process and the .team file is not on te4.org because something went wonky with md5 (the game reads team just fine but I get md5 nil in the log?!)

Grab it from here

CHANGELOG

* bug fix: no longer freezing on actor gen
* bug fix: ranged combat now works properly again
* bug fix: decrease hp properly if your Con is lowered
* bug fix: right click menu now works properly
* bug fix: no more "unknown actor" spawning
* bug fix: no more trying to log on critters drowning

* XP awards for seeing first 4 monsters of a kind
* stealth
* you can now receive Weapon Focus in a random weapon as a random perk
* you can now check how many monsters of a type you've killed or seen
* in-character monster info screen
* class feats are now color-coded in character sheet
* implemented ASCII/tiles switch
* more work on poisons (don't work yet)

[K M]

A new version was just rolled out, grab it from Git now or from ModDB later - MD5 checksum still is nil, so nope, not getting a .team file on te4.org.

The version is nicknamed "A drow, a human and a halfling", here's why:


Inter-racial cooperation - those three adventures (human barbarian, halfling cleric and drow fighter) have banded together to slay my hero.

No, this is not a scripted encounter, just RNG at its finest.


CHANGELOG:
* bug fix - no more monsters spawning in walls

* point buy now working as intended and resettable
* stat increases every 4th level now working
* d20-style encounters of multiple monsters
* implemented Luck, which makes rare items more common
* ability to load/import/recreate older characters
* pseudo-ID, auto-destroying known cursed items
* item feelings when entering a level
* humanoid NPCs can now have character classes
* deities for clerics
* coded in a lot of new terrain

[K M]

Another Monday, another release!
This time, it's named "More power to fighters".

Get it from Git now or from ModDB later.

CHANGELOG:

* bug fix - reverted Luck influencing items
* bug fix - undead, elementals and others made immune to criticals

* new tiles: centipede, krenshar, displacer beast
* new feats: Armor Optimisation, Shield Focus; Improved Strength, Improved Dexterity, Improved Constitution, Improved Intelligence, Improved Wisdom, Improved Charisma, Improved Luck
* fighter bonus feat selection
* wizards can now select familiars
* improved starting equipment selection, now taking race into account
* magic items as starting perks
* magic items can now increase Luck, too
* types and subtypes now influence immunities

P.S. T-Engine still not giving me md5, reported the issue to DarkGod as Grey has had the same with his 7drl, DataQueen.
P.P.S. A lot of this wouldn't happen without access to Incursion source code, which gave me ideas on how to implement some stuff.

[K M]

We're waiting for T-Engine 1.2.0 but it's still some time away and Easter is here!

Here's the beta 5! The code name has already been given !
Grab it from GitHub or Bitbucket or wait for the ModDB authorization.

CHANGELOG:

* bug fix - summon monster dialog no longer appears if NPCs are trying to use it
* bug fix - fix trying to perform calculations on nil stat_points
* bug fix - wands and scrolls being unusable (but they don't work 100% properly yet)
* bug fix - negative damage when DR x/- is applied
* bug fix - load penalty is no longer incorrectly applied to skills such as Diplomacy or Intuition
* bug fix - finished implementing ghoul touch spell

* chests (and mimics)!
* you can now buy and sell from shopkeepers!
* poisons! watch out for spiders and centipedes
* implemented sneak attack and added flanking code in
* monsters now flee if reduced to below 50% max hp
* spellbook screen now contains spell information in a separate column
* kill count screen implemented; item manager screen implemented but non-functional yet
* implemented Spellcraft
* drow and duergar got (some) spell-like abilities
* new tiles: chest, bolas, shuriken, iron door, warded door, darkwood door
*  new races: lizardfolk, kobold, orc
*  new class: shaman (a divine equivalent of a sorcerer)
*  new prestige classes: archmage, loremaster, blackguard, arcane archer
*  new spells: darkness, faerie fire, invisibility, light, charm person
*  character sheet now colors increased/decreased stats
*  can go back to rolling/buying stats screen from the load character screen
*  failure/success messages are now color-coded in log
*  log messages no longer tell you what exactly damaged you if you can't see the source actor
*  particle effects added to bleeding out and faerie fire