Re: [Incursion] Digest for incursion@googlegroups.com - 6 Messages in 1 Topic

[Richard Tew]

Maybe Veins should get it's own mailing list? :-)


On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 6:04 PM, <incu...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> Today's Topic Summary
>
> Group: http://groups.google.com/group/incursion/topics
>
> An open source successor to Incursion [6 Updates]
>
> An open source successor to Incursion
>
> K M <katarz...@gmail.com> Nov 22 12:33AM -0800
>
> We changed Concentration to Int based because seriously, one skill using
> Constitution out of all 20 or whatever the total is? Unless we can make
> something else based on Con, this is just penalizing the player for not
> knowing the system. If you have any ideas about a Con-based skill, throw
> them out there...
> We gave all casters Spellcraft just for the sake of clarity.
> Point taken about Diplomacy and Sense Motive for sorcerers, although I was
> just trying to differentiate them more from wizards.
> What do you mean about saving throw changes? The fractions gained on level
> up or the pick better out of two rule? The pick better out of two works
> fine in 4e and helps to avoid Multiple Ability Dependency.
> And the saving throw for magic missile is there because otherwise MM could
> be just called "remove hp directly".
>
> W dniu czwartek, 21 listopada 2013 21:18:42 UTC+1 użytkownik Holsety
> napisał:
>
>
>
> Holsety <musp...@gmail.com> Nov 22 01:32AM -0800
>
> But Concentration IS a con-based skill, that's just how it is. You're not
> penalizing the player for not knowing the system unless you hide the fact
> that it's a con-based skill.
> It's there so wizards don't just nuke everything they run into, and it
> forces you to choose between a high-Int build where you have more spells or
> one that sacrifices some other stat so your spells don't get interrupted.
> By making it Int-based you're buffing Int-based-casters and nerfing
> Wis/Cha-based casters. When it's con-based (as the description suggests it
> should be :P) then all three flavors of caster have equal access to it.
>
> Diplomacy and Sense Motive are feeling lonely with no Paladins around ;)
>
> For saving throws I meant better-out-of-two. It's a bit silly, really?
> Let's say you have a fireball that lets you save with Dex. So a rogue could
> nimbly save reliably, but a clumsy wizard can't dodge a fireball at all.
> (Which makes sense, no?) Now you're letting the wizard somehow ace the
> REFLEX saving throw with his Int, which doesn't make sense...
> Aside from not making "lore/fluff" sense it means that wizards are now as
> good at dodging spells and traps as rogues. ???
> The fortitude saving throw (Con, now Con/Str) also doesn't add anything.
> Fighters will take both Con and Str anyway, while casters and rogues are
> likely to take neither. So there's no benefit to any class by the change to
> con/str. Fluff-wise though you're making a saving throw vs poison or
> disease with your FORTITUDE, which is tied directly to your constitution
> (ie physical toughness, overall healthyness), not your magnificent muscley
> arms. Being able to crush a boulder with your bare hands won't help when
> you have the sniffles... I don't see it helping (buff/nerf) anyone by being
> con/str, unless people like to build all-str no-con fighters.
> The Will saving throw (Wis, now Wis/Cha) is all about how well you can
> resist mental influences with your willpower (which is a product of Wis).
> So while weak-minded fighters and easily-distracted wizards might be fooled
> by illusions, the down-to-earth Rangers/Druids or divinely-aided Clerics
> might be able to see past the trick. Let's be honest, nobody takes Cha in
> DnD inspired videogames. Unless you're a bard/sorcerer/paladin. Of these
> only the paladin is likely to have some Wis (but he's not in Veins anyway)
> so you're really only helping Sorcerers. You could make an argument that
> Cha is somehow willpower related since it's about force of personality, but
> that's just arguing for two stats (wis/cha) to do the same thing, and
> that's silly.
> Also saving throws don't exist in 4e anymore... no wait they're more like
> static defenses.... no wait. Argh! Uh, just be careful applying 4e design
> principles to earlier PnP mechanics, there's a reason it's a seperate
> edition and not an expansion to 3.5e haha. I like this "multiple ability
> dependency" you speak of. Fighters want con/str/dex, mages want their
> primary caster stat + dex/con, but nobody has enough stat points to go
> around and make their perfect build. So you have to spread yourself thin,
> especially if you're an advanced class like bard or paladin. That's always
> been part of the charm, for me. Compared to being 18/00str, 18con, 18dex
> half-orc/half-giant barbarian. ;)
>
> MM is "remove hp directly". No saves, ever. That's what the spell is all
> about. You're sacrificing a first-level spell slot to put in a 1d6 ranged
> damage hp removal.
> You could have taken sleep, or color spray, or mage armor or something
> utility, but you don't have any damage output as low level mage. So you
> take some magic missiles.
> They might do 2 damage, and you cry. Or they do 5 damage and you're pretty
> dang happy. But you can cast 3 at most (so 6-15 damage, 10ish average) (in
> regular srd) which means you can kill ONE beefy fighter, if you're LUCKY.
> Later on you get stuff like fireball and acid arrow, which lets opponents
> save, but that doesn't matter because those spells do a HECK of a lot more
> damage.
> To be fair when you're going up against later enemies you'll be shooting
> your five high level slots worth of "miniature imploding sun" that the
> enemy might save for half damage against instead of your 40 first level
> slots worth of "magic missile 1d4+1 damage". Magic missile is a low-level
> stepping stone to better spells, no sense nerfing it.
> (Mostly I'm just a stickler for MUH TRADITION)
> Besides, nerfing MM indirectly nerfs Missile Storm
> (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Missile_Storm_%283.5e_Spell%29) or the
> equally fun NWN variant Isaac's Greater Missile Storm
> (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Isaac%27s_greater_missile_storm). :D
> I never keep using MM, even if it gives additional missiles to higher level
> mages.
>
> OH WELL, that's all just me complaining. I like complaining, don't take it
> as a personal attack. I'm sure there's plenty of changes to be made so you
> can make SRD work in a videogame, some of the changes just look odd to me.
> I'm mostly familiar with 2e and 3.5e so when I see people change the rules
> (even 4e) my reflex tends to be a melodramatic NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Doesn't
> mean I won't play Veins in the end :B
>
> On Friday, November 22, 2013 9:33:23 AM UTC+1, K M wrote:
>
>
>
> K M <katarz...@gmail.com> Nov 22 02:35AM -0800
>
> I get your being a stickler for tradition, and I don't mind the
> complaining, it's how we can improve Veins.
> Speaking of "Let's be honest, nobody takes Cha in DnD inspired videogames."
> that's precisely one of the reasons for the better-one-of-two rule. One of
> the design goals was to make every attribute interesting and worth taking.
> Same for classes and skills. There's no point in having dump stats or dump
> skills or a class that nobody bothers to take, after all.
>
> BTW there are more changes than the ones you pointed out, should I
> understand that you're pleased by the rest?
>
> Also, if you have any ideas on how to make Paladins interesting by
> themselves, throw them out there. Paladins are not included [yet,
> everything is up for discussion] because personally, I'm allergic to their
> do-gooder and holier-than-thou attitudes, and Seb equates them to a
> fighter/cleric multiclass, so they're non-viable and non-interesting.
>
> W dniu piątek, 22 listopada 2013 10:32:06 UTC+1 użytkownik Holsety napisał:
>
>
>
> Holsety <musp...@gmail.com> Nov 22 03:21AM -0800
>
> Outside of games the whole appeal of paladins is roleplaying a do-gooder :V
> Their interesting bits are passive immunity to fear and diseases, adding
> your Cha to saving throws and some healing abilties for self and others.
> And since you're already likely to take some Cha, they play nice with
> Diplomacy. So you've got a heavily armored warrior who's unlikely to be
> stopped by fear, disease, traps, mental tricks or enemy magic. The
> unstoppable force of justice~ He just stinks as a caster probably (I always
> favored cha/con/str over wis) and doesn't fight as well as a fighter (due
> to not getting ALL THOSE FEATS).
> Cleric is flat out a better holy caster, but doesn't get those passive
> immunities, which were always the draw for me.
> So yeah, I don't think there's much lost with paladins being gone.
>
> I don't mind the other changes you laid out. Most of those are necessary
> for making a videogame adaptation or just ease of use. Intimidate for
> fighters, intuition (which has an ID-role now?) for everyone, s'all fine
> probably. Lumping feats that people always take together into one is good
> too. Don't think anyone can sensibly implement initiative in a roguelike,
> haha. I just pointed out the ones that made no sense to me as far as pnp
> rulings go. Throwing out multiclass XP penalties is probably better for a
> videogame, they were only really in it for the balance of a group of people.
>
> I get that you want to fight dump-stats and all that, but the better-of-two
> rule means that a high-dex rogue will have the same result as a high-int
> mage when walking through a corridor of traps. (ie lots of succesfull
> reflex saving throws) Which means that playing a mage loses the experience
> of "Better look out for traps, I'm a frail guy". And it's ONLY the wizard
> of all classes that gets buffed in this regard, since it's the only
> int-heavy class around.
> The fort save change doesn't affect ANY class, and the will save change
> buffs bards/sorcs/warlocks. Which comes down to only fighters, wizards and
> rogues having shit will saves.
> So that's a lot of indirect buffs to casters, who already are very strong
> lategame.
>
>
>
>
>
> Jason Dixon <moxiousm...@gmail.com> Nov 22 11:38AM -0600
>
> I think people are kind of missing an underlying point here...you don't
> invest in your Con for the Concentration bonus. You invest in your Con for
> your HP and your Fort. Also, over a large enough progression, variation in
> ability score modifiers tends to iron out. Also, isn't Incursion a game
> where your stats can be trained?
>
>
>
>
>
> K M <katarz...@gmail.com> Nov 22 11:53AM -0800
>
> There is a beta
> module<http://te4.org/sites/default/files/game-modules/veins/veins-0.11.1.team>available
> from te4.org. (Install ToME 1.0.5., put module in the modules
> folder, enjoy!)
> Report any missing tiles here. I want to get the best tileset I can before
> 1st Dec (the ending of the modules contest)
>
> ---
>
>
>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Incursion" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to incursion+...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.