How to show common names in an unreleased language (Dutch)?

[Marjo Janssens]

Hello friends,

I ran into a rather specifc problem today. 

I'm viewing the site (and using the app) in English, since Dutch is not supported (yet). That's not really a problem for me, there's even a good chance I'd view the site in English even if Dutch was supported. However, I would like to view the common names of species in Dutch if they're available, since for most species I only know the Dutch common name by heart. 

Unless I'm missing something, this doesn't seem to be possible because I cannot set my language to "Dutch". 

I messed around a bit with using the "place" setting, and while this seems to show me some Dutch names, there are still a lot of species for which the Dutch common name is available, but doesn't show up for me. Furthermore, which names are displayed in Dutch or not seem to change depending on whether I put in "Netherlands" or "Flemish Brabant". Entering "Belgium" results in all English common names (Belgium has 3 official languages, I suspect that might be the cause).

This seems like a pretty large oversight to me. Quite frankly, letting the common names be dependent on your "place" setting, without providing the option to simply select in which language you'd like the common names to be displayed, seems a bit unlogical to me. So unlogical, that I think perhaps I'm simply overlooking something? 

Is there any way to simply tell the site/app that I want to use the site in English, but want the Dutch common names to be displayed along with the scientific name?

Thanks in advance for your reactions!

[Chris Cheatle]

It's a mixed bag. Because Dutch is not a supported language. You can set to display common names in Dutch. Go to your profile, about half way down the centre column is a box Prioritize common names used in this place.

Set it to Netherlands. The challenge is a Dutch translation has to be entered and it also set as the name to use in the Netherlands. #1 is done for many things. #2 is not.

For example, here is a link to some of my observation. If you do the above, you'll see a few translated Dutch names, but not all. Virtually everything has a translation, but step 2 is not done : https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?d1=2014-06-01&d2=2014-06-30&place_id=any&subview=table&user_id=cmcheatle

[Chris Cheatle]

Sorry - go to your account, not your profile.

[Chris Cheatle]

FYI - languages are released when 75% of the strings are translated. Unfortunately, it seems little progress has been made on Dutch : https://crowdin.com/project/inaturalistios

It actually looks like a lot has been translated, but not approved. It is at 79% translated, but only 15% approved.

[Scott Loarie]

And just 19% translated on the website which uses translatewiki (while the mobile apps use crowdin) https://www.inaturalist.org/pages/translate#website https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Special:MessageGroupStats/out-inaturalist#sortable:3=desc

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[Marjo Janssens]

Thank you Chris and Scott for both your reactions. 

I'm actually trying to get a bunch translated on TranslateWiki (I already got it from 15% to 19% in the past few days, hurray x3), but a lot of the phrases are hard to translate without knowing the specific context in which they'll be used (I also made a note/discussion/thingy about that on there, but I digress). If there's anything else I can do in order to help out with this, please do let me know ;)

Likewise, I've also tried adding a few Dutch common names to several species - and was puzzled when they didn't show up for me. 

To be honest, I'm not sure I understand how the process of adding common names works. Dutch is spoken in multiple countries, so does that mean all those countries need to be set for each translated common name? What about countries that have multiple languages, like Belgium or Canada? And what if people set their "place" to a state, for example? Would those need to be entered for each language, too?

It all sounds like a pretty cumbersome way to do things. It's also not very logical: you're asking people to specify what places a language is spoken in, and then you're asking them to set a place to determine the language that shows up for them: 

language (species name) --> place (species name) --> place (user) --> language (user)

That sounds like a detour to me. Wouldn't it be more logical to let users set what language they'd want the common names to appear in? 

language (species name) --> language (user)

The "place" setting can then still be used if multiple common names for the same language are available (for example if the common name is different in Belgium and the Netherlands).

Furthermore, what if I want to be extra difficult, and would like to view the site in English, but display the Dutch common names? (This may sound like a weird thing to want to do, but some words/concepts translate very poorly to Dutch, which is why I prefer to put written text in the original language if possible. I imagine the same goes for other languages, too.) 

I understand that this is currently impossible, but perhaps this can be looked into for future implementations? As common names are always linked to a language, it seems to me that it should be fairly easy to create an option for users to select what language they'd like the common names to appear in, no?

I hope I'm not sounding disgruntled or anything, as I'm mainly trying to think on how things could be improved. The scientific names are there, so personally I can manage, but not having to look up the common name would definitely be an improvement imho, especially for the more casual user.

[Chris Cheatle]

Keep in mind I dont work for the site, so this is unofficial, and just my understanding.

The problem is language and location are not mutually linked. My native language is English, but I spell things differently that our neighbours (see what I did there) to the south. So just setting an "English" translation does not work. There needs to be Gray Heron, defined as English and set for the US. And there needs to be Grey Heron defined as English for Canada, the UK etc.

If the language is a supported language, simply changing your settings to that language will force the display into that language (assuming the species name has been translated of course). For example at the very bottom right of your screen is a drop-down. Change it to Danish (Dansk). without even setting your location, you'll see Danish names.

The issue is since it is still unsupported, for Dutch, both the translation, and the "Netherlands local name" have to be entered. If you create a translation, you can actually set it as the string to use. For example, here is a bird without translation into Dutch : https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/7170-Clangula-hyemalis

If you add the translation, which is apparently IJseen, you will notice an edit link next to it. In there you can add a location where this name is to be used - say Netherlands, and/or the Dutch speaking regions of Belgium. The challenge is if you are not a curator, you can only edit ones you created. Thus the ones you added, you can go back and do this. And assuming you change the Prioritize Common Names to Netherlands, you will see them.

In terms of multi-lingual nations like Canada or Belgium, it is a bottoms-up hierarchy. Names can be defined for Canada (in English) and for Quebec (in French). If I set my common names place to Canada, I will see English, if I set it to Quebec, I would see French. If I was to set my location to Ontario which is an English province in Canada, and there are no strings defined for Ontario, it will navigate up the hierarchy and say "Ontario is a part of Canada, there is an entry set for Canada, so use that"

In terms of running the site in 1 language and seeing common names in another. It works fine, set the language to English and the Prioritize Common Names from to Netherlands, and as long as that link is established it works. Attached is a screenprint of me running with the site in English, but Denmark common names prioritized. Note the 1st species is in Danish, but Great Tit is in English, this is because while a Danish translation exists for Great Tit, it is not set as the name to be used in Denmark.

That was certainly long, did it make any sense at all ?

[Marjo Janssens]

Well, mine was long too - and I'm not sure all of mine made sense either ;)

Ah, the thing about running the site in English and seeing the common names in another makes sense, I guess that problem's solved (or rather, never existed).

Regarding the rest: I get what you're trying to say, but it still doesn't sound like a very logical way to do things (to me). Let's take your example of "gray heron" and look at 2 different situations for a user who has set their preferred language for common names to "English":

Situation A: only "gray heron" was entered for English.

Situation B: two common names were entered for English:

1) "gray heron" for place=UK

2) "grey heron" for place=USA

Current system

Situation A: 

If your place matches the place set for "gray heron", you'll see "gray heron".

If not, you're shown the default (English) common name regardless of your place or language settings at least that's what shows up for me atm).

Situation B: 

If your place is set to "UK", you'll see "gray heron". 

If your place is set to "USA", you'll see "grey heron". 

If your place doesn't match any of the options available for that language, you're shown the default (English) common name regardless of your place or language settings.

Proposed system

Situation A: 

You'll see "gray heron" regardless of your place settings.

Situation B: 

If your place is set to "UK", you'll see "gray heron". 

If your place is set to "USA", you'll see "grey heron". 

If your place doesn't match any of the options available for that language, it'll pick the default option for that language 

(This will need to be decided by the developers in some way I imagine - for example: English default = UK, Dutch default = Netherlands, etc... Random, alphabetically or chronologically 'which option was entered first) could work too, perhaps, to avoid the need to set the default for each language manually - I'm not a coder, heh)

The big difference between both systems, is in case of a place missmatch. Currently, you're automatically shown the English common name in that case. It would make more sense (to me), that if the place doesn't match but the language does, you're still shown a common name in that language. Perhaps not always ideal, but still better than nothing - if you're used to seeing "grey heron" and are shown "gray heron", you still know what bird we're talking about - or at least get more useful info than seeing the common name in a completely different lagnuage, that you maybe don't even speak very well. And I imagine that in the vast majority of cases, the names will simply be the same (or very very close, like the gray/grey thing) regardless of the place. 

The bottom-up thing works well - in theory. 

There is no option to indicate "Canada+UK" (Canada uses UK spelling, right?), so when setting a place for a certain name you have to pick one of them, thereby excluding the other whether you want to or not. This means that if you want to have things show up well for both Canada and the UK, you'll need to set the same name for both places. That would clutter the page with loads of identical names for the same language rather quickly O.o

I think I beat you in lengthiness, haha - let me know if this makes sense or not?

(PS: close - it's ijseend ;p Taken literally, it translates to "iceduck")

[Chris Cheatle]

Hey, I was close, I speak Danish, not Dutch, however I won't mention how often I would travel, say I lived in Denmark and then be asked "So you speak Dutch?"

Th system works well because it is flexible, it does work better if it is a supported language, since then you can choose to see the site in that language an automatically get any translations. Wanting to see the site in 1 language and names in another takes some workaround.

Either way, the 1st step is simply getting the names translated. I'm actually surprised at how few species have it for Dutch.

A really quick way too see what species have translations is if you set your common names to Netherlands and go here. It will show all the bird species observed in the Netherlands in frequency order, and if translated show in Dutch. At least for all the species with 10+ observations, if a Dutch name was entered, I've set it to be used in the Netherlands. If it still shows in English, that means no Dutch translation is currently entered.

[Marjo Janssens]

Very close! 

I often experience something similar when someone who speaks German asks me what my native language is, and then starts prattling in German (Deutsch) when I say it's Dutch. I don't speak a word of German =D

I think you're right about needing to get the names translated - guess I've got my work cut out for me ;)

On a more practical note: when I enter a Dutch name, what do you think would be best to put as the place? Nothing, Netherlands, Flanders, both, ... ? The wording on the page confuses me a bit:

"Add a name to a place to give it priority for sites and users from that place. If there are multiple names per place you can prioritize them here. Please do not add names for EVERY place where the name is used, only for places that conflict with other places."

(source: https://www.inaturalist.org/taxon_names/1175210/edit - I noticed you as a curator should have access to that bit too)

From our discussion, I'd think it best to add a place, but according to this titbit here, I'd think it'd be best *not* to enter a place?

[Chris Cheatle]

Unless there are differences in the actual names used between Dutch in the Netherlands and Flemish, it makes sense to enter Netherlands as the place. A Flemish speaker in Belgium can choose to use names used in the Netherlands and see the desired result, and no need to then also enter it for two places
. French speakers in Belgium already have a supported language so not as big an issue.

[Marjo Janssens]

I guess for now I'll do it like that, then =)

However, I'll stand by my point that the system is flawed. Take for example the red kite: it has the Dutch name entered, but atm there is no way to have it show up since no place is entered. And it shouldn't be, because afaik it's the only Dutch name that's used, regardless of the place. Furthermore, if there are names that are different between, say, the Netherlands and Flanders, people from Flanders will either never see the names they tend to use, or never see the names that are the same for both the Netherlands and Flanders (since those all have the place set to "the Netherlands").

Allowing users to select the language for the common names would solve those problems, and at the same time allow for more flexibility in case users want to use the site in one language, but see the common names in another. And apart from the obvious need to put some effort into implementing that feature, I don't really see a downside to doing it like that.

[Chris Cheatle]

Unfortunately allowing users to select a language for common names does not really work well, or perhaps better said, involves the same amount of work.

It does not work for regional variants of languages (American English vs. Canadian English, Latin American Spanish vs. Iberian Spanish, Brazilian Portuguese vs. "native" Portuguese etc). In cases like that all the variants of names would have to be entered into separate lexicons. Grey Heron would have to be entered for Canadian English, British English, Australian English etc, which is the same amount of work as entering Grey Heron once as an English lexicon and then adding the places where it is used. As they say, six of one, half dozen of the other, it is just a matter of where it needs to be done. 

It's also not simply a matter of spelling variations, it is a name use - Larus canus is a "Common Gull" in the UK, it is a "Mew Gull" in Canada

I do however have an idea for a programming approach that might work, I will post it as a separate topic so it is not lost in here.

[Marjo Janssens]

I agree that in your examples - ie, in languages where the names are different depending on the place - it's indeed a matter of six of one, half a dozen of the other. But for languages where the name is identical regardless of the place, that's not the case.

But I feel we might have to agree to disagree here, because I feel we're talking in circles a bit, haha.

However, selecting the lagnuage is merely the solution I thought of to solve the problem - ultimately, I don't really care how the problem gets solved, as long as it gets solved. So I'm definitely looking forward to reading about what other solution you thought of! 

[bobby23]

I'm a bit confused on what qualifies as a "string" and how one would be able to contribute to it. I've been trying to add Afrikaans names to species, thinking this would help, but I guess this is a separate matter all together. Would someone explain this to me?

- Bobby

[Chris Cheatle]

South Africa as a multilingual nation is even more complicated example. If you are adding Afrikaans names already, that is great. But the 2nd step referenced here about setting that name to be used in South Africa is problematic. because it would become the name used for all South Africa. And I'm not going to wade into any debate about which of the 11 national languages should be displayed (it is tough enough here in Canada with 2 official languages).

Realistically the only way to get species names to show in Afrikaans is to get an Afrikaans translation of the site done, which has barely started (7% complete)

[Chris Cheatle]

Just to be clear, I don't mean to discourage you from entering the names, both processes need to happen - the site translation and the entry of translated names. If someone goes ahead and does a push to translate the site, unless the names are entered, the displayed names will still be English.

It is easier in cases where there is a functional 1:1 relationship between language and location.

[Selysiothemis nigra]

There is a list of 64.000 dutch names, but adding these by hand is a lot of work. I hope programmers can find an easier solution for this.

[Selysiothemis nigra]

Op zondag 1 april 2018 19:56:06 UTC+2 schreef Chris Cheatle:

 If someone goes ahead and does a push to translate the site, unless the names are entered, the displayed names will still be English

 This only works for the website, not for the mobile apps? The mobile apps are almost completely translated into dutch, but not confirmed yet.

[Andre Hos]

But than it is still a specielist one can choose to use ? a Brit in Canda wil still use, i thing "Common Gull" 

But the birding books in Canda do use "Mew Gull"?

[Andre Hos]

I still do not understand it.
I also want to search on Dutch local names or even to search in several local names (but not italian..when i was in Sicilie the app worked in Italian..which language i do NOT speak. Back in Holland the itallian persisit. Some how i put it on Latin i thought in profile. And now i do get Dutch names, English names and Latin names).

Can i help in someway?

I do NOT mind if the website is in English.
I do NOT mind if the iphone app is in English.

My iPhone has the Dutch language selected.

[Chris Cheatle]

Andre,

It does not matter what language setting your phone is on. If you want to see names in Dutch, you need to go to web client application (you may be able to do it in the mobile app, but I don't really use it so don't know how). After logging in to the website, go to your account settings, near the bottom of the centre column is an option called prioritize common names used in this place, set that to the Netherlands. It takes effect immediately on the web client, if you had the app open on your phone, you need to restart it I believe to see the change.

Note that names will only show in Dutch if the translation has been entered to the iNaturalist database, there is no magic way it goes and looks them up.

You can only see on the page 2 names, the scientific name and one translated common name, there is no way to have it show Latin, English and Dutch names at the same time.

Please note on the mobile app, there are some screens on the app where translated names don't show, it will only show English, I posted a list of them to this forum which you can search for.


When you do a search or enter an identification, you can search for Mew gull, common gull, stormmeeuw, Stormmåge or Larus canus all will find the same thing.