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I have been following these various discussions for awhile and I have mixed feelings. And I am nervous about stepping into this discussion!
My background is as a marine biologist and data manager and I feel very strongly about using controlled vocabularies and creating the best dataset possible that can be made accessible and easily reused.
I promote uploading of ‘well described and quality contolled’ datasets to GBIF or OBIS.
I am also a fan of iNaturalist – it does have a few flaws but so do GBIF and OBIS.
In my opinion iNaturalist is a great tool to help people learn more about nature and learn what kind of observations can be identified and can be flagged as suitable for reuse. The more records that they contribute the better they will get. And maybe they will become experts in certain areas. As an example I hope that one day I will feel confident enough about my bird observations that I can contribute to eBird. I couldn’t have done this without having started with inat.
Recently I uploaded a number of photos of trees found along a local urban trail. How am I to know if these are cultivated or not native? They are old trees. This should not be the responsibility of the person sharing their observations. If the tree was in a planter then yes I might feel confident and assign the correct flag.
What would be a great addition to iNat is linkage to sets of regional species registers that contain authoritative info re conservation status, invasiveness, native, marine/freshwater, etc etc. These registers likely exist. What is needed then is a tool (or script) that can link these registers to iNat species/locations. I expect that scripts exist in R.
If this linkage to ‘flags’ is available then could we identify observations that we know are inappropriate observations (photos of cut flowers, house plants and/or pets inside a house).
The flagging of cultivated plants gets complicated very quickly (neighbours garden plants have invaded my yard, etc). Could we draft a document with all kinds of examples as to why inclusion of these observations annoys ‘users’. This googlegroup discussion contains lots of valid points.
If there was a list of native plants then wouldn’t it be possible to identify ‘cultivated’ taxa?
If I have a potted flowering plant in my yard then it is likely that insects, birds, etc will be attracted. When trying to understand why these insects/birds are present in this area isn’t it also important to know what flowers they were attracted to? Is it important to know that birds are around my house as we have bird feeders? (this might also explain presence of rodents...)
What if I go out into the woods and dig up a fern and bring it back home to my garden – is this wild or cultivated? (and is this important?)
Is the role of iNaturalist to get people outdoors exploring, observing nature and sharing observations? Keep it simple. Do not add too many restrictions. Create better tools/scripts to help those that wish to reuse the data.
If/when people load garbage then address the issue – if they don’t care then that is a problem. But maybe they simply didn’t know any better – this is where we must come up with friendly means to help them refresh their contributions – the aim after all is to reach out beyond traditional sources of ‘data’. It is working!
Integrating citizen science into larger traditional databases is new. For now most observations need close scrutiny but they are a useful layer. Before analysing any dataset the user must get to know the data. Perhaps if we do indeed compile a list of issues related to wild/cultivated then this info could be taken into consideration by users. Let the users decide what filters to apply.
Wild/cultivated is simply one issue. There are many more.
Working with aggregated data from many sources will always provide challenges.
Congrats to iNaturalist for getting people around the globe to share their observations. Now that we have data lets improve guidelines on how to use the data – what to watch for and what QC steps should be included plus hints re how to select or exclude certain projects, people or species.
I am a bit nervous about pressing the ‘send’ button...
Mary
I’m glad you clicked “send”!
iNaturalist observations are raw data points, and if the users of the data are not happy that it is exactly what they want, then they are free to “post-process” the results to fit their needs.
To me, iNaturalist started out as a bunch of passionate people that were around long enough learn the ropes, and to “fix” what they uploaded based on dialog that might occur. Heck, I have seen conversations lately around observations from 5 years ago, and the original poster is involved in that convo. Many of those passionate participants are teachers and project coordinators that have taken the tool and are encouraging it’s use by a wider audience, and that is a good thing. But many of those new participants are not as passionate, and their participation is fleeting. They are not around to learn from their mistakes, and they are often not around long enough to fix or adjust what they have done. Many times I have asked the observer if they have placed the pin on the map to where they saw the thing, and never get a reply.
I think a possible solution to this is to help the passionate advocates of the site that want to bring in input from perhaps less passionate or motivated participants (such as students) to be able to moderate their input. Perhaps have two user account models, a main membership that is as present, and a second type that operates as an extension of the main account. In the same way as you have umbrella projects for collection projects, you could have main (teacher) accounts that have authority over the secondary (student) accounts. The students would post observations as normal under their student account, but the teacher would get notifications and alerts for the student accounts that they have under theirs, as well as have the ability to make changes in the student observations as if it were their own observation. In this way, they could moderate and guide the students, and cleanup any issues that occur.
I know teachers are busy people, and if it helped them, they could choose to have a passionate amateur like myself run as the main or “mentor” account, and have even their own account as teacher be part of the class. I could then help them by fielding their requests to fix this , or delete the duplicates etc.
cheers
Mark Tutty
kiwif...@gmail.com
I like your example of the prickly pear - Are you aware that I posted a picture from Point Pelee this fall? https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/17059440
It will be interesting monitoring the observations posted in April during the city nature challenge. As an organizer I am trying to come up with a few guidelines re what info needs to be shared with local participants.
As a data manager I will try to come up with a few guidelines to help analyse our local results.
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I haven’t tried to perform detailed analysis of iNat data. Perhaps it is possible to create a script that flags any observations associated with a member who has contributed fewer than 20 observations. The end user could then decide if they wish to include or to filter out. Or maybe the script could flag members that only participated within a short window (probably associated with a class project).
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
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Remember too, that interactions between organisms can be complicated. You might have a planted tree, but it brings in birds that poops seeds of other plants that weren’t there normally by cultivated/wild standards... they wouldn’t be there unless that tree was planted. Knowing where all the elms are, both cultivated and wild, could help model the spread of some new pathogen that is threatening them... and so on. I think we need to document the bidiverisity in such places as arboretums, because the diversity there can provide a foot hold for other invasive species to establish. Better understanding the interactions of organisms helps everyone!
cheers
Mark Tutty
kiwif...@gmail.com
From: Anne Ellis
Sent: Friday, 30 November 2018 12:34 PM
To: inatu...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [inaturalist] Rampant abuse of iNaturalist for school projects
Scott, I understand and agree -- and someone posted a little ways back about not including plants that were clearly cultivated, such as garden bed plants, potted plants, etc. But -- and I do this too, working at an arboretum -- when I see a bug or a butterfly on a cultivated plant, or a bird on a tree limb, those creatures are wild even if they are feeding or nesting on cultivated plants. I'd include those (and in fact, I have). A few of my posts have potted plants clearly visible, but the subject is actually the butterfly.
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marking it as "not wild' hides this data from those who want it most.
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... I think it is needlessly authoritarian to shut down a bioblitz like TWUs. The issue is that they should label the organism as “cultivated” and that is not prominently explained to new users, especially if using a smartphone.
I do not recommend banning cultivated or trapped organisms but recommend making the “cultivated” button more prominent to new users.
David
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Charlie Hohn
Montpelier, Vermont
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Charlie Hohn
Montpelier, Vermont
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Thx Tony, Anne, Charlie etc.
I feel we are getting close to some consensus on some of what may seem contentious positions regarding what is legit/unwanted/sciency/wild, etc. Partly it seems to be about definitions and what different people gain from the data, and the relationship between observers, identifiers, scientists, AI and HI!
PROBLEM: words have important sometimes subtle and symbolic meanings. I feel personally affronted when my deliberative, purposeful records of planted or even caged organisms are ‘downgraded’ to being (merely) casual and unworthy of being ‘science’ or ‘research’. They are NOT casual in any sense of the word. Only the user can determine value – it is not for someone else to do this. Research Grade should only be a statement of correct identification. The words ‘cultivated’ and ‘captive’ are ambiguous or imprecise (as someone pointed out, a cat wandering the streets/parks may be an owned pet, but is still acting/interacting as a ‘wild’ animal). ‘Cultivated’ might mean to some merely that the ground around a plant is being hoed/weeded etc.
SOLUTION: Designate plants that have been planted as … ‘Planted’ 😊; and animals might be designated ‘Domestic’ (when free range) or ‘Captive/Caged’ (only when they are actually constrained). Research Grade (RG) is applied to organisms where the species ID has been confirmed in the usual 2/3 way (notwithstanding some new protocols to deal with the advent of AI and people uncritically/unknowingly accepting AI or changing and downgrading IDs). Perhaps RG should also be allowed for higher taxonomic levels where there is consensus about genus, family etc. Afterall this may be the most accurate level of ID possible for many organisms – especially inverts, algae, fungi etc.
In the LIST view (and in filters) provide symbols for RG (as per the meaning above), P (for planted), D (for domestic) and C (for captive/caged). This will reduce the confusion, be accurate (without second-guessing other people’s intention or values), and allow potential identifiers to easily choose what they want to spend their time on. It is important for cultivated plants to be RG and used to train AI especially since so many questions about IDs relate to planted or escaped introduced species. There are 30 000 in NZ and I want to know that AI is well-trained internationally to ‘capture’ these and give me a good ID.
TEACHER GUIDES – agree that this should be made more visible and upgraded. Again, for all the reasons canvassed in this discussion, may we certainly encourage people to go out and find wild things, BUT don’t say iNat is for wild things (only) or use words like ‘traditional’ views of natural history because this is just not accurate, is merely a personal preference, and indeed is distorting especially if say the starting point for a school is the plants and animals in the school grounds or neighbourhood. The whole world is a recombinant ecosystem – especially urban ecosystems, and much of what we see is planted including restoration sites. The important thing is promoting ‘good’, responsible behaviour and self-discipline, teacher guidance (vetting of selfies and sandwiches, etc), protocols for observing and recording when the plant is ‘planted’ or not. This latter is the most important distinction to make and should be made easier to tick (someone suggested putting the cultivated (now planted?) box up higher on the app screen).
Cheers c
From: inatu...@googlegroups.com [mailto:inatu...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Tony Iwane
Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2018 10:10 AM
To: iNaturalist <inatu...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [inaturalist] Re: Rampant abuse of iNaturalist for school projects
Hey Anne,
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Charlie Hohn
Montpelier, Vermont
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Charlie Hohn
Montpelier, Vermont
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Studies show that trees live longer when they’re not cut down
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Hi Colin,
I don’t think making it more complex (with different crtieria added eg domestic etc) will solve the problem. It is a subjective distinction, and there will always be those that have different viewpoints and creating more lines to divide will only create more reasons to disagree.
To me it is a simple thing. iNaturalist is a community moderated forum, and the marking of captive/cultivated vs wild is a concensus thing. If we all “vote” how we see fit, then it should average out at what the majority of opinion states. There is no right or wrong answer in many cases, so it is best to just let the votes decide. If someone disagrees strongly, they can make their vote and tag in those that see things the same way, and vice versa. It has taken me a while to get from “Too scared to make an ID in case I am wrong”, to understanding that I can always “change my position when others supply a different perspective”.
I think if we all cast our vote, and state in a comment why we vote that way (when it is grey area of course), then if someone thinks they have a perspective that might change your opinion they can tag you in a comment with the extra info.
What we don’t need to do, is try to make others see things as we do. Everyone will have a unique view as to what captive/cultivated means, and a few questions and discussions helps us see the perspectives of others, but we are not wrong! This is not a problem that needs fixing, It is one that needs accepting for what it is. It is like a distinction between hot and cold... when does something become hot, and would an additional state of “warm” really help matters? When does something stop being hot and become warm? And what about “Very hot”!
Captive/cultivated vs wild is a simple distinction that does have a large grey area in the middle, but even that can help anyone using the data to filter out or otherwise work with it. And it certainly does create some interesting dialogue on how much we have changed the natural world to suit ourselves! Perhaps it should be a spectrum...?
To me, the only real problem with the captive/cultivated flag is that it stops things being in the “Needs ID” pages. Many observers that are wanting an ID on an unknown plant, for instance, will not set the cultivated flag because they know it will likely mean they don’t get an ID.
cheers
Mark Tutty
kiwif...@gmail.com
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I wouldn't mind having the option to make a "student" account, which would have some way to counter this -- for instance, keeping all observations casual until "wild" is checked yes manually, or something.
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Charlie Hohn
Montpelier, Vermont
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Charlie Hohn
Montpelier, Vermont
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A very loose term, I understand it to mean anyone that is well above average in terms of how frequently they participate and/or how well they know how to use the site/tool.
I think it can also be used as a salve for bruised egos 😊, but in this case I think it might be more of a stick to poke an ego 😊
cheers
Mark Tutty
kiwif...@gmail.com
From: tony rebelo
Sent: Monday, 3 December 2018 10:16 AM
To: iNaturalist
Subject: Re: [inaturalist] Re: Rampant abuse of iNaturalist for schoolprojects
What is a "Power User"?
And yes, technically your transplanted fern is now captive.
Captive potted plants can be of importance locally however, such as when they become established nearby. But rather than photographing people's yard plantings, document here only when they become, or appear to be becoming established.
Plenty of times, just yesterday in fact, I have visited planted gardens to photo the insects attracted to them, but never submitted the planted flora separately. There are plenty of horticultural and other places where people can view or identify cultivated things. That's what 1-800 Flowers is for!
Jay
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Already happens...
There are participants here that appreciate the cultivated plants etc. This website is not exclusively for those that do not. Personally, I think many people lose sight of the fact that WE are part of the natural world too, and our natural movements around the world are quite relevant to what is happening to all the so called “wild species”... I would encourage students to observe cultivated plants, especially as a way of “learning the ropes” before tackling wild observations, and if they mark as cultivated, or a teacher/supervisor guides them in the process, then those
Quite seriously, the day iNat starts aggressively deterring the cultivated observations will be the day I delete and move on...
cheers
Mark Tutty
kiwif...@gmail.com
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I sometimes feel like tearing out my limited amount of remaining hair. Doesn’t anyone ever read the entire dialogue in these debates? I wrote a post specifically arguing that we SHOULDN’T discourage a particular class of records just because WE don’t like them. There have been endless posts that point out the perfectly valid, scientific, research value of cultivated specimens – as well as the introductory role they play for manu urban-dwellers. And let me be clear. I’m as keenly focused on and desirous of ‘wild’ plants as anyone; but not seeing merit in recording all the natural consequences of human activity (good and bad) is in fact anti-scientific. And this whole enterprise depends on science input. Mark Tutty made this point most recently; and Patrick has the solution – provide switches and filters so any user can choose to interact with whatever subset of data they want or are not offended by. The ‘flood’ of poor student observations, selfies etc, is another separate issue and depends on better engagement with and education of responsible teachers. c
From: inatu...@googlegroups.com <inatu...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Patrick Alexander
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 2:33 PM
To: inatu...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [inaturalist] Re: Rampant abuse of iNaturalist for school projects
Hello Daniela,
If people started flooding the site with pictures of porn, random tourist photos of statues or real estate listings, the site could choose to block or ban those, just as they are entitled to do so for French fries, salad or selfies.
Of course, the site both can and should police the content that is posted. They own the site and set the terms of use, and users are expected to abide to those.
If people started flooding the site with pictures of porn, random tourist photos of statues or real estate listings, the site could choose to block or ban those, just as they are entitled to do so for French fries, salad or selfies.
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I don't think explicit prohibitions of these things is useful. After all, they are part of the biodiversity of urban and suburban environments; there is potential for useful information to be drawn from them. A better approach might be to draft a policy for school biodiversity projects, like there is for the BioBlitz guide.Something like:Welcome to iNaturalist! We would like to partner with you as you and your students undertake your survey of biodiversity. With that in mind, we would like to make some policy clear.1) Consider structuring/registering your class project as a bioblitz: https://www.inaturalist.org/pages/bioblitz+guide2) Observations of pets, captive animals, humans, and other organisms most naturalists may not find interesting are ok (they're alive, after all). We understand that these organisms are part of urban and suburban ecosystems, and so they are allowed. However, they must be properly tagged as captive/cultivated. [Provide example of how to do that].3) While we will accept captive/cultivated organisms, we will not accept observations of food or arrangements. For example, pictures of rice or bananas or cut flowers from the store are not useful information and are not appropriate contributions to the iNaturalist project.3) Pre-screen your students' observations before they post them to iNaturalist. This will benefit both you and us as it will reduce the number of observations that are flagged as inappropriate and/or other community members contacting you about what your students are uploading.~William
Prescreening is too onerous for us as educators and removes the
thrill of almost real time IDs. What I do for our class bioblitzes
- and it's not perfect - is go over iNat rules etc before the
bioblitz, then after event is over and observations uploaded I go
over the 'rules' again and require that all participants go
through and clean their observations up-no "Something," must have
a photo in our case, must not be inappropriate, must have
geolocation.
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-- ................................ evidence + reason + art + love = hope ................................ Daniela Soleri, PhD Research Scientist Geography Department UC Santa Barbara http://geog.ucsb.edu/~soleri/ ................................. Sail on, sail on, oh mighty ship of state! To the shores of need Past the reefs of greed, Through the squalls of hate. Sail on, sail on, sail on Leonard Cohen, Democracy, 1992
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