Re: Nonsuch Luck Carbon Fiber & lightning strikes

[Mike Girardo]

Joe:   Very interesting piece.  But, notice an important consideration. They cite that a lot of the lightning strike is dissipated by the stays,  That is the important difference between the Morgan (and most other sailboats) and the Nonsuch.  No stays on the Nonsuch. But, there was this caveat in the last line too. "And all without any appreciable increase in lightning strike risk, particularly since we have installed a substantial lightning conductor." I read that as a heavy wire run up inside the mast in order to protect it in a lightning strike. Which somewhat diminishes the main reason for going to carbon fiber which is the reduction in weight especially aloft. But, as long as the insurance companies are willing to insure boats with carbon fiber masts I say go carbon fiber if you want. But, that could change overnight if their losses from carbon fiber mast replacement start to rise. I would say that most boats do not have carbon fiber masts at this point.  As for me I'm sticking with aluminum. I might consider a boom of Carbon Fiber but, not the mast. Mostly because it would hurt my head less if the topping lift breaks.<g>   As for selling my Nonsuch you'll be waiting a very long time for that to happen. <g>   Mike Girardo BIANKA 1986 30U http://biankablog.blogspot.com --- On Fri, 6/12/09, Joe Thompson <j...@joescomputing.net> wrote: From: Joe Thompson <j...@joescomputing.net> Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted To: "Nonsuch Yacht Owners Discussion List" <NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>, "Mike" <biank...@VERIZON.NET> Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 2:20 AM very in depth discussion of happy decision to fit bluewater cruiser with a carbon rig from Hall: includes a detailed argument on lightning from Ben Hall. This particular owner did a very thorough refit and felt that the new carbon stick was the best thing he did: http://www.morganscloud.com/indepth/inbrpart1.html#lightning A carbon stick from a builder like Hall or Composite is an excellent choice. While you are at it get them to make you carbon wishbones. Mike I love your electric engine. If you ever want to sell your boat let me know. Joe Thompson NS26U "Cato" On Thu, 2009-06-11 at 16:40 -0700, Mike wrote: Lloyd:   >From what I have read it's not that Carbon Fiber masts are more susceptible to lightning strikes it's that the lightning strikes are more devastating to carbon fiber.  As I recall the reasoning is this. Both Aluminum and Carbon fiber mast are conductors. Both will provide electrical paths to the ground/water in a lightning strike (in a properly grounded boat). It just that aluminum is a much better conductor i.e less resistance. Less resistance to electron flow equals less heat. Carbon Fiber is not as good. Soooo there is more heat built up in a lightning strike in the carbon fiber material. Which tries to expand because of the heat induced by the strike but can't do it fast enough so it shatters and/or cracks. The danger is not when the Carbon Fiber shatters as it should be obvious from the pieces of mast on the deck, It is if it only cracks The damage may not be seen because it is hidden behind the coating applied to the Carbon Fiber masts to protect them from UV rays.  Failure of the mast can come at anytime after that with no indication before hand.    Mike BIANKA 1986 30U   --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Lloyd Robbins <lrob...@QTRLAW.COM> wrote: From: Lloyd Robbins <lrob...@QTRLAW.COM> Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 4:36 PM Thank you for the photos of the mast. . You should challenge your insurer .  As a lawyer who deals with insurance claims I would not accept their position. These masts do not fail as a result of ordinary wear and tear.  Insurance companies always start with this position .   I have an older nonsuch . I do not have a mast collar . I have a fitting which is riveted onto the mast. I have been thinking of getting a mast caller but after looking at your pictures I wonder if the collar does not actually make a greater stress point. Are there any experts that can comment on this.   Instead of having a collar could a fitting be bolted through deck  sepreate from mast or would that cause too much strain on the deck.   I once was considering getting a carbon mast. I talked to a rigger friend who has considerable experience  and his one comment was that the carbon mast was more susceptible  to lightening . Can anyone comment.   From: Nonsuch Yacht Owners Discussion List [mailto:NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM] On Behalf Of John Newell Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 10:32 AM To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted   Bob,   I guess part of the cause from looking at your excellent photos is that salt accumulated below the collar over the years permitted electrolosis to reduced the strength of the aluminium below the collar giving you a clean break at that point.  Being close hauled would exert stress at the base of the mast and the time for a weakened mast to break.  Those who tend to over sheet risk premature mast failure apart from sailing on one's beams end at reduced speed and increased leeway.   If I am right,  it would be a good idea for the Nonsuch fleet to ensure the mast is washed thoroughly below the collar and a protective coating applied on a regular basis especially when sailing in salt water.  Rain will wash the mast down to the collar but brine will accumulate under it.  If I am wrong, washing below the collar will do no harm.    Replacing the mast with a carbon fibre spar as you suggest seems to be the logical thing to do in salt water.  I hope the US manufacturer can give you a good price.  Exchange rates should work in your favour, but I doubt that they could supply you with a replacement mast in time for the Around the Island Race.  It would not hurt to ask for your money back or at least allow you to enter next years race.  Seems only fair.   John       ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Illingworth To: John Newell Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 5:31 AM Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted   John, Thanks for your message; we were well sheeted in so the end of boom would have been immediately above the starboard aft rail. Bob   From: John Newell Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 1:40 AM To: Bob Illingworth Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted   Bob, I am so sorry to hear it and just before your big event.  Bad Luck.....

[Bill Spencer]

A couple of times now, in the discussion of carbon fiber masts, the
notion of a C/F wishbone has been mentioned. I was always under the
impression that one of the main advantages of a wishbone rig was the
vang effect that came as a result of the weight of the wishbone. But
the lighter-weight C/F wishbone would probably not be as effective in
that regard.

Didn't some of the early "new" models (260, 324, 354) have a carbon
fiber wishbone, and didn't Hinterhoeller revert to aluminum
later? Maybe Allen Ames or Mike Quill can tell us.

At 10:48 AM 6/12/2009, Mike Girardo wrote:
>... I might consider a boom of Carbon Fiber but, not the mast.

Bill Spencer
LIONHEART, NS30U #352 Hyde Park, NY

[John Foster]

As I discovered from the builder and designer of the Wyliecat wishbone,
they have carbon fiber nose pieces and tail pieces with 3 inch aluminum
tubing ( same as the tubing used on the wishbone of my Nonsuch 22.) I
used mild steel tubing in my Wyliecat width of wishbone modification.
(http://nonsuch22blueberry.blogspot.com/2009/01/wyliecat-width-of-wishbone-on-blueberry.html)

In all but the lightest breezes. the weight of the wishbone itself does
not seem to affect sail shape all that much. Since I do a mixture of
sailing in mid San Francisco Bay winds that would "blow dogs off chains"
and light air Oakland estuary beer can races where the evening breeze
drops with the light of day, I opted to have separate port and starboard
topping lifts to support the wishbone, switching the support with each
tack, in the light evening air, a cunningham and a vang.

The original owners, designer and builder all were aware of the racing
benefit of an adjustable vang line running between the luff cringle and
the leech cringle of the sail. I use that vang to good advantage while
racing in fresher breeze. When cruising with friends, I ignore my vang,
cunningham, topping lift, and apart from a set it and forget it
adjustment, my choker line as well, reverting to my beloved "one string
to pull" configuration. Yeah, all right, so I have a two winch, endless
mainsheet setup...(grin)...

John Foster
Blueberry 22 48

[Arthur Langley]

The foot of the sail, not the weight of the boom, provides the vang effect
with a wishbone boom.

All the greater weight of the aluminum booms does is close the leech in very
light wind (makes boat very slow) and put anyone at greater risk who gets
hit by the boom.

Cheers,

Arthur Langley
BEAR AWAY 30C 54 BEAR AWAY 30C 14 BROADWAY 30U 426
Wells ME Wells Harbor South Baymouth ON Toronto ON Royal Canadian YC
NH & Maine Fleet Lake Huron Fleet West-Lake Ontario Fleet

cel 207.459.6410 tel. 207.449.1980

On 6/12/09 11:44 AM, "Bill Spencer LIONHEART 30U 352"

[Jon Fitch]

On Jun 12, 2009, at 7:48 AM, Mike Girardo wrote:

> I would say that most boats do not have carbon fiber masts at this
> point. As for me I'm sticking with aluminum. I might consider a
> boom of Carbon Fiber but, not the mast. Mostly because it would hurt
> my head less if the topping lift breaks.<g>
>

While there is lots of theory and speculation about carbon masts and
lightening, I don't know that the in-the-field experience with them
justifies the concerns. Lightening is a chaotic and poorly understood
event, the ability to predict damage in any particular situation is
almost non-existent. I believe Composite Engineering has had at least
two carbon masts take direct lightening strikes, in neither case was
the mast destroyed or even much damaged. Perhaps a company like BoatUS
has some statistics on dollar damage for strikes to a carbon rig vs.
aluminum, if they do I would like to read it. There is even an
argument that dissipating the energy of the strike in the rig (which
might lead to the loss of the rig) is preferable to dissipating it in
the hull (which can and has sunk the vessel). On my carbon rig the
aluminum sail track is used as a lightening conductor (it is more
conductive than the #4 copper recommended by ABYC) and grounded to the
keel, so no extra weight is involved.

My point is, I do not believe there is empirical evidence to support
lightening resistance as the primary reason to choose aluminum over
carbon in a sailboat rig.

Perhaps the best strategy is to raft up next to a much larger boat
during lightening storms. This is similar to the joke about not having
to outrun a pursuing bear, you just have to outrun your companions....

Jon Fitch
'Anomaly'

[John iscaro]

So with all the masts being replaced with carbon,  and new boats being made from carbon,  has the cost to produce/replace dropped
significantly or  am I dreaming.   Can mass purchase/order reduce costs or is it a supply and demand issue?

--
John Iscaro / Chief Engineer
Greenwich Country Club
203-869-1000 W
203-627-2864  C

[Jon Fitch]

On Jun 12, 2009, at 11:13 AM, John iscaro wrote:

> So with all the masts being replaced with carbon, and new boats
> being made from carbon, has the cost to produce/replace dropped
> significantly or am I dreaming. Can mass purchase/order reduce
> costs or is it a supply and demand issue?
>

I don't have an authoritative answer. But the primary costs seem to be
the carbon material and finishing labor, neither of which is going to
drop a lot with modest volume. At least at Composite Engineering they
already have the tooling and it must already be paid for. But I am
sure they could work more efficiently building, say 5 or 10 at a time
than one. A savings in labor is no doubt possible with some
automation, but to justify that investment would probably take an
order for 100.

One alternative would be to purchase the carbon tube, and do all the
finishing yourself. I don't think this is out of the range of anyone
handy with a few tools and some experience with fiberglass lamination.
The tube itself probably represents less than 1/4 of the labor of the
mast ready to step.

Jon Fitch
'Anomaly'

[Kristen Posey Mead]

I'm not sure whether CF has come down in price as a material, but I know that the cost of glass and epoxy has gone up.  And shipping it anywhere, that cost has gone way up.  As for labor, it depends on their building methodology, mold type, and curing.  You might get a little bit of a discount for asking for a pile of sticks at once, but I wouldn't think much of one.

Haven't worked with CF or Kevlar yet, but... I happen to need a new mast for my Sanderling.  And I still have the old one.  The stuff of Friday afternoon at-work daydreams, for sure.

[Jerry Stange]

The vang effect is the result of the wishbone directed upward towards
the mast preventing the outboard end of the wishbone from rising with
increasing wind load. The vang pushes up (resisted by the choker)
instead of pulling down as with conventional booms. Since the leech of
the sail supports the after end of the wishbone, the weight of the
wishbone only becomes a factor in light air when the topping lift may be
used to take the weight off the leech to prevent cupping.
The 260, 324 and 354 all came with C/F wishbones.
Jerry

[John iscaro]

Yeah, that would be a fun project for the winter but I would have to find a 60' heated basement with good ventilation!   Wife hates when I do bright work in basement.  Go figure,  I love the smell.  Buying a blank tube and adding your own track and hardware caught me attention though!

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Kristen Posey Mead <pos...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm not sure whether CF has come down in price as a material, but I know that the cost of glass and epoxy has gone up.  And shipping it anywhere, that cost has gone way up.  As for labor, it depends on their building methodology, mold type, and curing.  You might get a little bit of a discount for asking for a pile of sticks at once, but I wouldn't think much of one.

Haven't worked with CF or Kevlar yet, but... I happen to need a new mast for my Sanderling.  And I still have the old one.  The stuff of Friday afternoon at-work daydreams, for sure.

[Arthur Langley]

Dreaming.  :)

A year or more ago, I reported to the LIST the costs of CF masts from Composite Engineering for the various models. At the time, I’d also investigated the cost savings if 5 or 10 masts were ordered at the same time. Even if all were the same, say spars for 30s, there would be no saving for 5 and minimal savings for 10. Labor/labour is what it is and materials are what they are. Actually shipping and handling is the biggest variable in costs unless all the masts went to one place. Call any carrier and ask them how much to ship just an empty box that is 60’ x 1’ x 1’ from Concord, Massachusetts to the location of your boat. Even air is expensive to ship, let alone several hundred pounds of Nonsuch mast.

“Mass order” is a relative term. More carbon fiber is used in the very small numbers of Champ, Indy, and Formula One cars (where cost is no object whatsoever), in just one year, than will ever be used building Nonsuch masts.

Demand for carbon fiber is skyrocketing around the world. Double digit year over year increase in demand has been growing faster than supply. Boeing’s new, mostly CF, 787 Dreamliner production alone is sucking up the world CF supplies at a prodigious rate. The auto industry has been messing around with CF for the same reason as aircraft builders . . . BIG fuel savings from BIG weight reductions. Due to CF, every 787 will be 15 TONS lighter than if built with aluminum.

If anyone has a couple of billion dollars and wants to get richer over the next 10-20 years, you might want to get into the CF manufacture and supply business.

I’d bet CF masts and booms will only get more and more and more expensive in that same timeframe.

Cheers,

Arthur Langley
BEAR AWAY  30C  54 1980    BEAR AWAY  30C  14 1979    BROADWAY  30U  426 1987
Wells ME  Wells Harbor                  South Baymouth ON                      Toronto ON  Royal Canadian YC
New Hampshire & Maine Fleet     Lake Huron Fleet                             West-Lake Ontario Fleet

tel 860.415.0502       cel  207.459.6410       tel.  207.449.1980

There are good ships, there are wood ships, and these ships sail the sea
But the best ship, is friendship and may this always be!   Irish Poem

[Arthur Langley]

The CF mast tube, unpainted, is half the cost of a finished mast from
Composite Engineering.

The shipping cost is the same for the tube or a finished mast.

Cheers,

Arthur Langley

BEAR AWAY 30C 54 BEAR AWAY 30C 14 BROADWAY 30U 426

Wells ME Wells Harbor South Baymouth ON Toronto ON Royal Canadian YC

NH & Maine Fleet Lake Huron Fleet West-Lake Ontario Fleet

cel 207.459.6410 tel. 207.449.1980

[Kristen Posey Mead]

Oh, but you want more bendy-bendy at the top and less bendy-bendy at the bottom, don't you?  So while a static cross-section along the mast would technically work, probably its best to get one that's a little more pleasing to the eye among other things.  Otherwise we'd all have aluminum tubing masts instead of our special tapered pretty ones.

Had the chance to speak with Wylie once, his are designed for the bending.  The static shape more approximates the much sought after elliptical plan than our straight poles, and probably the deviation under loads pushes it further into an elliptical plan...

Maybe you don't necessarily need a heated basement... doesn't pre-preg have to stay cold until time to kick?  You'd just have to build a really long skinny oven somewhere.  It's a different stink than brightwork.  I'm not an advocate of marital discord, and this is not at all to put ideas in your head...  But I noticed a disturbing string of stories at the wedding reception, every time Russell wanted to build a boat in the backyard at a young age, he'd have the Bill of Materials turned into his Dad just before his Mom would leave on a long trip to Florida or a mission trip to Timbuktu (not quite literally, but thereabouts), and that his Dad would return from the airport from dropping her off with a truck full of the required construction materials, and dubious quantities of junk food.  (I hope to avoid similar subterfuge by either being an advocate of boat projects or simply keeping my trap shut after only a vague dissension with rational concerns.)

[Jon Fitch]

On Jun 12, 2009, at 2:58 PM, Kristen Posey Mead wrote:
>
> Maybe you don't necessarily need a heated basement... doesn't pre-
> preg have to stay cold until time to kick? You'd just have to build
> a really long skinny oven somewhere.

Most of the strength is in the bare tube, it is really only thing that
should be autoclaved. The rest of the stuff is reinforcing patches and
hardware attachments, all done with normal room temp curing resins
laminated by hand in small pieces. On the other hand, it would be very
difficult to duplicate the bare tube at home, not just because of the
autoclave, but for the lack of the very peculiar braiding machine that
is used.

Jon Fitch
'Anomaly'

[Walter Mills]

 Hello
 
Every time I turn on the pressure water system the water pump starts.
 
I am sure it is time to replace the Accumulator Tank.
 
Any words of wisdom out there to share before I go to the marine store.
 
Cheers
Walter
 
Chester 30U 293
Mimico/Toronto

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[Paul J Chandler]

Just re-seal the plug with new Teflon tape and I am sure all will be ok 

Check the hose clamps as well

Paul Chandler

Sent from my iPhone

Paul J Chandler

[Doug Caldwell]

Hello all,

My boat was built for me in 1986.  For one reason or another, I went through two accumulator tanks before hearing from a boatyard person that new boats don’t have them. I do not know if this is true. My boat has operated for several years without an accumulator tank and still has the origional water pump.

 

I nope Murphy, famous for his Law, does not read this and decide to have at my water pump.

 

Douglas Y. Caldwell, Toronto Canada,

Nonsuch 30 U, #353, 1986

dycal...@rogers.com

 

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[gerard vanboven]

First of all you might try to drain the tank and then check the air pressure in the tank and possibly pump it back up a bit. On my boat I regularly drain the tank and afterword always notice a great improvement in pressure and less cycling when the pump is running
 
NS 26C Tabby   Gerard van Boven 

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[Bruce Anderson]

Walter - I got tired of my pump being reluctant to prime, so I threw it
out and bought a new pressure pump this year. Works great and it was
easy to install. All of the new ones are designed to work without an
accumulator - but keeping it in the line shouldn't hurt.

If I recall, it was always fairly normal on KANIK for the pump to run a
bit to build up pressure again after the system had been turned off for
a while. Where you need to worry is if it runs every few minutes even
when you are not running water.

So - you have lots of options -
1) ignore it
2) work on sealing the accumulator tank and other places where there
might be a small pressure leak
3) replace the accumulator tank (Personally, I would be reluctant to
suspect it)
4) put in a new pressure pump and either keep or eliminate the
accumulator tank.

Bruce Anderson
KANIK NS30U 286
Mimico Cruising Club

Doug Caldwell wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> My boat was built for me in 1986. For one reason or another, I went
> through two accumulator tanks before hearing from a boatyard person
> that new boats don’t have them. I do not know if this is true. My boat
> has operated for several years without an accumulator tank and still
> has the origional water pump.
>
> I nope Murphy, famous for his Law, does not read this and decide to
> have at my water pump.
>
> Douglas Y. Caldwell, Toronto Canada,
>
> Nonsuch 30 U, #353, 1986
>
> dycal...@rogers.com
>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Nonsuch Yacht Owners Discussion List
> [mailto:NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM] *On Behalf Of *Walter Mills
> *Sent:* June 12, 2009 10:56 PM
> *To:* NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> *Subject:* Jabsco Accumulator tank ITT

>
>
> Hello
>
> Every time I turn on the pressure water system the water pump starts.
>
> I am sure it is time to replace the Accumulator Tank.
>
> Any words of wisdom out there to share before I go to the marine store.
>
> Cheers
> Walter
>
> Chester 30U 293
> Mimico/Toronto
>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> Create a cool, new character for your Windows Live™ Messenger. Check

> it out <http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9656621>
>

[Bill Spencer]

Unlike a home pressure tank with an internal air bladder, I believe
the inexpensive pressure tanks used on boats simply rely on the air
captured above the water in the tank for compression. The water
inlet and exit fittings are on the bottom of the tank, and the air
above cannot escape, giving you the stored pressure you desire.

If there is a small air leak, or even over time if the air is
replaced by water, then there is no more compression and therefore no
stored pressure when the water faucet is turned on. To remedy,
disconnect one of the hoses at the bottom of the tank and allow the
water to drain. Then reconnect the hose and see if it works better.

If the tank has a threaded plug at the top of the tank, check it for
tightness while the tank is empty. If necessary, remove it and re-seal it.

[Joe Valinoti]

Very good advice, Bill!  You reminded me to check mine.

 

Joe Valinoti
IL GATTO  NS30U  #221
Oriental, NC 
                  ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

[Nigel Fontaine]

Mine does the same.  What plug are you refering to.  I haven't pulled it apart yet.
 
Nigel Fontaine

Cat Tales
N30 U #482
PCYC Toronto

 

 

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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 23:40:03 -0400
From: friday...@BELLNET.CA

Subject: Re: Jabsco Accumulator tank ITT

To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

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