31 year old fuel tank in an N33. You might want to inspect yours!

[Ward Woodruff]

My friend with N33 #44 replaced his fuel tank this spring due to a leak.

I arrived at the boat yard, two weeks ago, with less than a half tank of fuel so that I could remove and inspect my fuel tank.

The procedure for tank removal was to suck the fuel out of the tank with my Moeller Fluid Extractor normally used for crankcase oil changes.  I connected the fluid extractor hose to the suction line from the tank after removing the suction line from the primary filter.  Each batch of fuel in the fluid extractor was then transferred to a portable fuel tank. When the fuel tank was empty, I removed 8 screws fixing the hold down slats in place, removed the hold down slats and removed the hoses and wires from the tank.

I managed to get the tank out of its compartment and out of the boat by myself.  In hindsight, two people would have been better/safer.  We are lucky that all of the tanks in the boat can be removed/replaced without requiring surgery. 

The fuel tank is installed in a compartment that can collect water.  The fuel tank is installed tight to the bottom of this compartment.  There is no outlet at the bottom. Water can get in and out through holes for refrigerant lines/wiring several inches above the lowest point of the compartment.  This level is below the top of the tank so the compartment is not an effective containment vessel for a leaking tank. Water can only get out of the compartment by evaporation.

My compartment had obviously at times contained water (see attached tank photo). 

I found a very small puddle (2-3 ounces) of diesel fuel in the lowest corner of my fuel tank compartment.

Upon close examination of the fuel tank's water stained areas, I found numerous pits, some quite deep.  Obviously tank replacement was in order.

Following an internet search, I sent Luther's Welding in Bristol, RI a sketch of the tank with a request for quotation.   Luther's responded the same day with price and expected lead time.

I found Luther's proposal acceptable and expect my new fuel tank in a couple of weeks. 

I plan to drill a drain hole at the lowest point of the tank compartment through the bulkhead separating the tank compartment from the engine compartment so that the tank compartment can no longer hold water against the fuel tank. 

Based on the experience of two 31 year old Connecticut  N33s, you might want to inspect your fuel tank before your next sailing season becomes inconvenienced by a fuel tank leak.

Ward Woodruff

N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

  

[Bob Jenkins]

The other issue with our fuel tanks is that they are I installed tight to the contour of the hull shape . But not tight enough to prevent any loose screws or nuts that get lost in normal ownership from finding there way under the tank . That was the observation I found under my tank . Those wear against the aluminum tank or provide a start for electrolytic action .

After I reinstalled my tank I pushed 1” foam rope between tank and fibreglass.

Bob Jenkins 

Good News 30U 

Toronto 

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<IMG_2395.jpg>

[Joe Valinoti]

Good posts about fuel tanks, Ward & Bob.  I don’t have fuel problems from dirt or water in my tank due to my pumping out the very bottom of the tank every spring.  Hopefully, it’s not corroding from the outside in.

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Paul Miller]

Ward, did you consider surgery on the old tank. Given that the problems were all in one area, I think I would have taken a skilsaw to it and cut away several inches back from the bad area on three sides and, after confirmation that the rest was sound, just had new pieces welded in. ...maybe making those pieces a little thicker as well.

Just a thought but probably cheaper than a new tank, and you’re sure it fits. (I have had problems in the past with tanks coming from welding shops that weren’t to spec despite meticulously drafted plans.)

Paul M

NS30U, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay B.C.

[Joe Valinoti]

Good point, Paul.  I’d take that option if it was my tank.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

 

From: Paul Miller

Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2019 3:19 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Re: 31 year old fuel tank in an N33. You might want to inspect yours!

 

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[Ward Woodruff]

Paul,

I briefly considered repair. 

It would be four of the six sides. 

The new tank will be .125” thick rather than the original .109” thickness. 

I also modified the size. The lowest point in the tank will be 2” higher than the old and with a flat bottom rather than a pointed bottom. I loose about a gallon of capacity by this change.  With the drained compartment and the lowest corner clipped off, the tank should not be able to sit in water unless the boat is sinking. 

The size is also modified to allow 1/4” strips of G10 to be adhered to the tank with 3M 5200 adhesive on the bottom, motor side, and battery box side. The intent is to prevent the tank from bearing against a surface where water could be present. 

I’ll have an overkill installation. I decided not to go cheap. 

I originally posted to alert others of the possible condition of their tanks. 

Ward Woodruff

N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 27, 2019, at 3:19 PM, Paul Miller <sandpip...@gmail.com> wrote:



--

[R N]

Could someone please educate me, because this is a topic of which I'm highly ignorant:

1. What are the tradeoffs of plastic vs. metal vs. fiberglass diesel fuel tanks?
2. Until this thread triggered me to look it up, I'd wrongly assumed that the International Nonsuch Association tank replacement program included fuel tanks.  I looked it up and saw that it's only water and waste tanks.  Is that because of cost and demand issues, or is it related to the answer to the first question?

Thanks,

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Peter DePascale]

Ward,

I repaired my tank last year. It developed a hole in the lowest corner. I believe the moisture was due to condensation over the years

without pumping it dry in the off season. I attached some pics to show my results. 

Pete DePascale

Irish Mist #6 33'

Branford, CT

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Peter DePascale

.

203-795-3447

203-671-2420

[Ward Woodruff]

Nice repair. 

Your tank had much less extensive corrosion than mine. 

Ward Woodruff

N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 27, 2019, at 6:28 PM, Peter DePascale <bathwo...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/CAK2ahYTU5gz8onP4%3DgKv%3DH957RA4ZDmSPOn7Vsm4xxUWPkMfyA%40mail.gmail.com.

<fuel tank 1.JPG>

<fuel tank 2.JPG>

<fuel tank 3.JPG>

[Joe Valinoti]

My recollection, is that it had to do with either a contractor doing poly tanks and/or liability for fuel tanks.  Ted or Thor will have the answer

Joe Valinoti
Int'l Nonsuch Assoc.
Tank Program Manager

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

 

From: R N

Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2019 5:03 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Re: 31 year old fuel tank in an N33. You might want to inspect yours!

 

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[Mark Powers]

Bob,
Here is a link to a Practical Sailor article about fuel tanks. There is more info than you probably want but it does have a section discussing the different materials that can be used in fuel tanks and the pros and cons of each.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/33_5/features/Diesel-Fuel-Tank_5437-1.html

Mark Powers
La Reina 26C
Vancouver, B.C.

[R N]

Very informative -- thanks!

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Paul Miller]

That’s a very good article Mark but there is another alternative that they didn’t mention. 

I’ve made several from plywood cut to fit on site assembled the way a stitch and glue hull is done and lined with glass cloth and epoxy. They make great tanks. There are no worries about corrosion, abrasion, or aging but as said in the article, not to be integral with a hull.

Paul M

NS30U #211 Sandpiper

Cowichan Bay B.C.

[Mark Powers]

Paul, 

And don't forget you have to use the correct resin.

[Ward Woodruff]

Paul,

With the site built plywood/fiberglass tank, how does one make the leak free ports for fill, vent, supply, return and fuel gauge sender?

Ward Woodruff

N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

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[Thor Powell Mariner's Cat V - 26C - North Channel]

Joe is correct, the INA does not get into fuel tanks due to liability issues.  Many of the tank issues are repairable by a welder so the market for new tanks is very small.  

Joe .....Drain valves are legal for diesel I believe, not for gas.  Is that your understanding

On Sunday, October 27, 2019 at 4:55:56 PM UTC-7, Joe Valinoti wrote:

My recollection, is that it had to do with either a contractor doing poly tanks and/or liability for fuel tanks.  Ted or Thor will have the answer

Joe Valinoti
Int'l Nonsuch Assoc.
Tank Program Manager

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

 

From: R N

Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2019 5:03 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Re: 31 year old fuel tank in an N33. You might want to inspect yours!

 

Could someone please educate me, because this is a topic of which I'm highly ignorant:

1. What are the tradeoffs of plastic vs. metal vs. fiberglass diesel fuel tanks?
2. Until this thread triggered me to look it up, I'd wrongly assumed that the International Nonsuch Association tank replacement program included fuel tanks.  I looked it up and saw that it's only water and waste tanks.  Is that because of cost and demand issues, or is it related to the answer to the first question?

Thanks,

 

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

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[Joe Valinoti]

I never thought about it, but I guess there is a reason.. 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Paul Miller]

Mark, just about any structural epoxy I can think of is fine. I would never use polyester on wood.

Ward, nylon thru-hulls make good fills and vents, fuel senders come with rubber gaskets, and for fills and returns it’s easy to epoxy in pipe fittings. Obviously any hole through the plywood needs to be well sealed with epoxy. Inspection holes can be aluminium plate or epoxy sealed plywood with appropriate gaskets.

[Ward Woodruff]

Paul,

Thanks for the info.

Ward  Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

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[Mark Powers]

Paul,
The Practical Sailor article said epoxy or vinylester resin but not polyester. I agree with you and would only use epoxy.

[Katmando]

I had an old aircraft from 1946. It had an old aluminium fuel tank that was always getting pinhole leaks. I took it to a Car restorer business and they dipped it epoxy. That’s what the do for the old cars, old fuel tanks are unobtainium.

But I digress, I got the tank back, no leaks. I don’t see why this would not work for our tanks.

Brian McCuaig. NS30u
Whitby, Ontario

“Having a yacht is reason for being more cheerful than most." -Kurt Vonnegut

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[Joe Valinoti]

I think that someone in the past has done this with their Nonsuch.

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

-----Original Message-----
From: Katmando
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 11:10 PM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: 31 year old fuel tank in an N33. You might want to inspect
yours!

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/EEF377A7-2CA4-4F56-B693-CCF5EE8CEB38%40rogers.com.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

I have a Nauta 14 gal. flexible holding tank. It is wonderful. Absolutely not a whiff of a smell. I mention this because I have heard that the exact same tanks (but WAY larger) are used as diesel tanks by the U.S. Coast Guard on some of their smaller vessels, with great success. To boot, they hang them up on the insides of the ships' hulls.

They are one tough tank, dead easy to work with and take a serious amount of abuse.

Part of the reason that they are odour free is because I spent the bucks and got good hose. Does THIS factor in to the re-installation of diesel tanks ??

Ernie A. in Toronto

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[Peter Grabow]

Hi All - 

Back in 2011 I had to replace the fuel tank on my 30Ultra. The yard had apparently dropped a couple of screws and they were nestled up against the tank in the forward inboard corner. They were trapped there as the adjacent drain hole was blocked by the engine compartment insulation installed during the building of the boat. Guess someone forgot to trim the insulation to expose the drain hole.

The firm that built the new tank suggested an epoxy dip to protect the tank, so I opted for that and also had them put in a 4" inspection port near the sending unit so I could clean it out when necessary.

I highly recommend both options.

Peter Grabow

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30 U 430

Jersey City, NJ

On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 11:10:32 PM UTC-4, Katmando wrote:

I had an old aircraft from 1946.  It had an old aluminium fuel tank that was always getting pinhole leaks. I took it to a Car restorer business and they dipped it epoxy.  That’s what the do for the old cars, old fuel tanks are unobtainium.

But I digress, I got the tank back, no leaks. I don’t see why this would not work for our tanks.

Brian McCuaig. NS30u
Whitby, Ontario

“Having a yacht is reason for being more cheerful than most." -Kurt Vonnegut


> On Oct 29, 2019, at 7:37 PM, Mark Powers <r...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> Paul,
> The Practical Sailor article said epoxy or vinylester resin but not polyester. I agree with you and would only use epoxy.
> Mark Powers
> La Reina 26C
> Vancouver, B.C.
>
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[Thor Powell Mariner's Cat V - 26C - North Channel]

Silicone expands in the presence of petroleum products and makes an excellent gasket for inspection covers.

[Joe Valinoti]

That’s before my time, as the tank manager, Peter.  I didn’t know that an epoxy dip was an option

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

From: Peter Grabow

Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 1:15 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Re: 31 year old fuel tank in an N33. You might want to inspect yours!

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