30 Ultra vs 33

[Gareth Gaston]

Interested if folks have thoughts on how differently the 30 and 33 sail?  The 33 does have a higher rating, but is *a lot* heavier and has a lower SA/Disp ratio.   How does it do in light air relative to the 30?  Leaving cost aside for the moment, do folks think the extra weight is worth it for extra space and creature comforts? Like all Nonsuches,  the 30 already seems like a very roomy boat for its size.

Thanks,

Gareth

[Joe Valinoti]

Gareth:  Note how we sign off our posts.  This tells people who you are, what you have (or want) and where you are.  You may get someone to offer you a sail on theirs.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Michael Jabara]

Hi Gareth,

I started my Nonsuch life with “Deal Me In”, a 1989 30 Ultra in 2005,  then sold that in 2012 when I acquired Hobbes II, my current 1995 354, which has a 33 hull.

My comments are as follows:

The 33 is a far more roomier boat. Much better for two people who are going to spend any extended time overnighting or cruising.

They both handle pretty much the same ; however, light air is not a problem on the West Coast. In fact we regularly get blows like yesterday’s 35+ kts and sunny in the afternoon, chop and light swells in the SF Bay.

I found I need the reef more with the 354 than I did the 30 when tacking or on a close reach to keep the boat on a comfortable max 20° heel.

The creature comforts were more with a 354. Danforth refrigeration versus icebox, electric halyard winch versus manual. 

Gybes as you can imagine are much more daunting in the bigger boat. I used to Hudson river gybe the 30 regularly until I blew a sail. Now I chicken gybe the 354 unless the boom is at the corners. 

In light variable air, you really have to be careful about and accidental gybe and the amount of sheet that’s out (almost 50’!)

Overall, I’m much happier with the 354 as I regular spend 5 to 10 days at a time on the vessel.

And if you can try to purchase on of the 6 354s that were made in the mid 90s. In fact I thought I saw one for sale right now someway on the East Coast. They have solid dependable Yanmar 50 hp engines, better creature comforts and most important carbon fiber masts and booms.

If you want to ask anymore questions, you’re welcome to call me at 702-561-7600

Michael Jabara 

Hobbes II - 1995 NS 354 

San Rafael, CA

Sent from my iPhone

On May 2, 2021, at 11:47 AM, Gareth Gaston <gar...@east10.com> wrote:

Interested if folks have thoughts on how differently the 30 and 33 sail?  The 33 does have a higher rating, but is *a lot* heavier and has a lower SA/Disp ratio.   How does it do in light air relative to the 30?  Leaving cost aside for the moment, do folks think the extra weight is worth it for extra space and creature comforts? Like all Nonsuches,  the 30 already seems like a very roomy boat for its size.

Thanks,

Gareth

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Gareth,

They say about me, "He knows not of what he speaks."

I have almost no experience sailing either the 30 or the 33.  May three to 5 hours on each. So excursive caution when considering my thoughts.

Below you will find the numbers for the Nonsuch 30 and 33 from the Tom Dove Sail Performance Calculator .   sailcalc.html    sailcalc.html

As you can see the 33 actually has a marginally higher sail area to displacement ration  17.33 vs 16.96. It has a slightly finer hull, higher hull speed, better capsize ratio, better motion comfort and carries about 200 pounds more for each inch of immersion.   Based on my own calculations the 33 has a marginally better ballast to displacement ratio -  39.41 vs 39.13. The sail aspect ratio also favours the 33 -  1.91 vs 1.875. Essentially on all of the performance measures the 33 is better than the 30.  

Generally bigger boats handle bigger waves and winds better than smaller boats. Of course that comes at a cost. Everything for a 33 is more expensive than 30. All the lines are longer and bigger. Moorage costs more. Sails cost more. It takes way more time and energy to polish the hull of a big boat than a smaller boat. I have compounded, polished and waxed the hulls of a Nonsuch 26, a C&C 30 and a C&C 34. The 26 took less time and I could use a lower scaffold. 

All Nonsuches are easy to sail and the principles are the same but the smaller the boat the handier it is. The forces on the sail on my 26 are much smaller than on a 30 or 33.  Pushing the 26 around at the dock is easier than pushing a 33. 

It is easier finding both permanent and temporary moorage for a smaller boat.  When we are out cruising and call a marina looking for a spot for the night we are often told the marina is full. Then they will ask how big are you? We say 26 feet and they say oh, we can fit you in.

 How much room you need for two people is a personal thing. We have had 4 people aboard for two weeks. At the end of that time the 26 started to feel small. For two of us for 3 weeks it is fine. I know of one couple that sail their 26 for several months at a time in the summer and feel the boat is plenty big enough. I also have friends that had a 48 foot power cruiser that they cruised with just the two of them aboard but were looking for something with more room.

The rational side of me says the 26 is big enough and anything more will be too expensive, while the emotional side of me lusts after a 30 or 33. 

Mark Powers

Performance Comparison

LOA  feet
Nonsuch 33  33.5
Nonsuch 30 30.33

LWL  feet

Nonsuch 33  31.5
Nonsuch 30 28.75

Beam feet
Nonsuch 33 12.6
Nonsuch 30 11.83

Displacement pounds
Nonsuch 33 15350
Nonsuch 30 11500

Sail Area square feet
Nonsuch 33  669
Nonsuch 30 540

Capsize Ratio
Nonsuch 33  2.03
Nonsuch 30  2.1

Hull Speed  in nautical miles per hour
Nonsuch 33  7.52
Nonsuch 30  7.18

Sail Area to Displacement
Nonsuch 33  17.33
Nonsuch 30  16.96

Displacement to LWL
Nonsuch 33  219
Nonsuch 30  216

LWL to Beam
Nonsuch 33  2.5
Nonsuch 30 2.43

Motion Comfort
Nonsuch 33  25.09
Nonsuch 30 22.46

Pounds for each inch of immersion 
Nonsuch 33  1418
Nonsuch 30  1215

[Gareth Gaston]

Thanks Michael. That is very helpful.  And apologies for the lack of an introduction.  I recently sold my J/105 and am looking for a boat I can single hand easily and sleep on for a night or two at a time with two or three other people max.   I’ll be located on the Chesapeake so plenty of light air days. That extra room of the 33 would be nice. I nfortunately I live two hours from the water so the boat will also act as a hotel when I go dinghy racing.  

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On May 2, 2021, at 6:36 PM, Michael Jabara <mja...@redrockpartners.com> wrote:



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[Bob Gehrman]

Hi Gareth -

I have an NS30U up here in Baltimore. Would be happy to take you out some time if you want to get a feel.

Bob Gehrman

NS30U #396 "Quickbeam"

Baltimore, Maryland

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[Mariner's Cat V 26C Brentwood Bay BC]

In my much less than humble opinion, a 26 is a better light air Nonsuch, if better is is not too much hyperbole  about a boat that come in at 9000 lbs for 26 feet. 

In winds under hull speed we regularly pass 30's, and give 33's a run for their money. 

Debbie and I have spent 3 months, every night for every summer for the past 7 years  on our 26. Plenty of room.  But we use out cockpit for everything... full enclosure.  

There was a comparison sail experiment at the Boston Rendezvous many years ago.... two 26's one carbon fibre , one aluminum.  The aluminum boat was faster.  Though was the carbon was stiffer and the boat did not react as well to gusts... or so I was told. I did not see the trial.

Thor

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Let us consider this. With the exception of sail aspect ratio, pretty much all of the performance numbers for the 26 are the worst in the fleet. I am guessing that sailing for 3 months every summer with little use of the engine and having Debbie on board has more to do with the performance of Mariner's Cat V than the design of the boat. Good crew can make up for a lot of deficiencies in a captain. Just ask Nesta.

I am curious, were they both 26s or was  the boats with the carbon mast a 260?

Mark Powers

[W C]

Hi Gareth,

I hadn't planned to weigh in on this thread, but if you plan on doing your own mechanical work, you should take a critical look at the engine compartment. I have1995 NS 354, and the engine compartment is criminally small.  It is the worst design feature of the boat, IMO. Discovering how to gain access for even the most routine engine maintenance is a very steep learning curve by itself.  My engine is a 38hp Westerbeke diesel. It is a great engine but with only 6" on either side it can be an exercise in frustration to do anything.  That 6" is largely filled with hoses, encased wiring and things that stick out from the engine such as the air intake muffler. Not that it can't be done, but everything seems incredibly difficult.  Nothing is easy.  For example, Switching out the raw water impeller is a routine task, but I have to remove the entire water pump to gain access, which of course requires detaching hoses. Gaining access to the pump requires getting the strainer out of the way.  Pretty much everything I have needed to do required doing something else first. So, it's another factor to consider.  I don't know if this is common with other Nonsuch models.

Barry Clark

Swan's Wing, NS 354, #71

Bridge Marina

Urbanna, VA

[Katmando]

Barry, I have a NS 30U.   It has a Westerbeke W33 four cylinder engine.

Everyday checks,  ie oil level, done through a small hatch in a cupboard which also serves to replace the impeller.  It also has an access patch under the cockpit floorboards forward of the binnacle,  useful for adding oil, checking wiring etc.

Remove the companionway steps and engine panel,  access to the transmission level stick,  heat exchanger,  the zinc and the electric oil scavenge pump and filter for quick oil changes.

I am 6’ 6” ancient haven’t been stuck down the cockpit lockers yet while tending to my engine.  Bags of room compared to some other boats I have sailed on,

I much prefer the 30U but then I’m biased,   I am lucky enough to have one.

Cheers

Brian McCuaig. NS30u

Whitby, Ontario

“Having a Nonsuch is reason for being more cheerful than most." 

On May 12, 2021, at 21:58, W C <blue...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Sriram Kannan]

Interesting discussion.

I am in the same position, trying to decide between a 30U and 33; can't afford the 35/36; the 26s are too low hull-speed for the overnight races I would enter; 30C cabin layout not so great for our situation. 

Here are some specific preferences / questions. And please feel to point me to a previous discussion on these topics:

1. Can U shaped sette with the table be turned into a bunk like the 30 ultras?

2. 33 doesn't seem to have a nav table, per se.

3. Engine access in 33 vs. 30

Sriram

Salem MA

Seeking 30U or 33

[Ken Dakin]

I am the second owner of  NS 33 # 7 built in 1988. The original owner selected the available interior layout with an enclosed quarter berth separated from the salon by a door. The forward berth is a Pullman style also separated from the salon by a door.

In answer to your questions:

1. Yes , the salon table lowers with a cushion on top which we store above the forward berth.

2. On the starboard side of the salon is a small second table with pull out leaves and two seats facing each other. I’m a tall fellow so the arrangement is tight for me and the table is small relative to a paper chart.

3. There are 3 ways to access the engine a) thru a small hatch in the quarter berth side wall shared with the engine room, b) by removal of the companionway stairs which gives access to the transmission, fuel filter, heat exchanger, oil dipstick etc and c) the cockpit sole between the binnacle and the companionway lifts out with room to stand/squat between opening and the engine which gives access to the oil filter, alternator and belts etc ( mine is a V drive so the engine faces backwards ). This means, if needed, the engine can be removed by lifting it straight up.

Ken Dakin

NS 33 # 7

Sashay

Kingston On

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On Nov 19, 2021, at 4:06 PM, Sriram Kannan <knn...@gmail.com> wrote:

Interesting discussion.

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[mark_finnimore]

Ken I have #4 with exactly the same layout as yours, perfect in every way:)

Sent from my Galaxy

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[Sriram Kannan]

Thank you for the information on the 33.

In terms of sleeping capacity, they seem even.  Too bad the two 'armchairs' on the 33 can't be converted into a bunk. 

The lack of a chart table is a minor annoyance.

The 3 extra feet of LOA would certainly make it possible to attempt something like the Marblehead Halifax race. Not exactly trying to but want to get to the finish before the party is over in a race the boats are bigger and therefore faster. :)

Sriram

Salem MA

Seeking 30U or 33