Sail handling at the mooring

[Chris]

Group,
In thinking about the upcoming season I hope someone could provide some thoughts on sail handling. I like to sail single handed and I would like to be able to leisurely raise my sail while at my mooring. However if there is any wind at all and given the propensity of my boat to swing freely with the current invariably the sail will fill and start to sail off. I have tried with the mainsheet both closed hauled and let way out. Neither works consistently. I end up having to motor off the mooring, turn into the wind with the engine running and then haul up the main. Anybody have any tips?

Chris Carlisle
Rowayton, CT
Pippin 30U #386

[ed ‹(•¿•)›]

Get a Bow Thruster installed.
A world of difference.

Ed Collis
ORION VII
Toronto

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[carl engel]

The Nonsuch is not a single handling boat. You need plenty of elbow room in order to move this very heavy boat.  one cannot even maneuver it under 3 knots you lose total control.

Carl Engel

El Faro Verde #169

Baltimore 

PS don't try getting into a non floating slip by yourself.

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[Joe Valinoti]

After 13 years of sailing a Nonsuch, I don’t know of a similar size boat much easier to sail singlehanded.  Off an anchor, or backing into a slip.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[R D Young]

I agree Joe. Very good boat for short or single handed sailing. Have solo sailed ours many miles since buying it in 1998.

David Young
Bay Cat, 30U #402
Traverse City / Suttons Bay, MI

[Allen Perrins]

Hi

I second Joe's comment except for backing a NS30C into a slip.

As for operating below 3 knots.  Have spent 20 years doing that,

particularly when racing in 2000 in New York Harbor. (Double handing).

Al

Barbcat  NS30C  #170

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Valinoti
Sent: Mar 25, 2016 9:29 PM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Sail handling at the mooring

After 13 years of sailing a Nonsuch, I don’t know of a similar size boat much easier to sail singlehanded.  Off an anchor, or backing into a slip.

 

[Allen Ames]

I believe that the Nonsuch is the best single-hander ever designed and built.  If the current makes it impossible to raise the sail while at anchor or on a mooring, there is nothing to do but to motor off and head into the wind under power.  It really solves a lot of problems! You will still be under sail LONG before any conventional boat has all its laundry up and drawing!

Allen Ames

Former owner of N/26 #4 and N/30 #181

[Ernie Abugov N22 #56 "Moustaches" EYC-Toronto]

I would think that by being on a mooring (or at anchor) it would be much trickier to "head off under sail" or, even tougher, anchor or pick up your mooring "under sail", especially all by yourself. Unless your engine has died, this is, clearly, the time to simply use your engine. That's what it's there for. It kinda sounds like one is playing chicken IF YOU ARE BY YOURSELF (operative phrase) by trying to do all of this under sail with any vessel that is longer than 12 feet. Like ... geez ...  why try ?? What is the point ?

Otherwise, I was very surprised to read Carl's comment about single-handling these boats. The "hardest' thing to do on a  BIG NONSUCH is to MANUALLY raise the damn sail, in my opinion. I have a single-speed Lewmar 16 ST winch which makes the last few feet a bit of a schlep. And, she's only 22'... and I have a slip, not a mooring. EVERYTHING is about this boat is a piece of cake.

My boat is like a Laser that WON'T capsize (with a proper washroom, big oomfy bed and a kitchen) - incredibly comfy and UTTERLY forgiving. Sails like a dinghy, she'll tack 100 times in 100 seconds if need be. I singlehand her 99% of the time in ALL halfway reasonable conditions. Yup, she's heavy, for 22 feet - she's GOOD heavy, not DUMB heavy. I don't race. I'm, truly, a so-so sailor. She is laughably easy to sail and, as Allen Ames states, is ready to sail in 25 seconds. I take her out in almost ANY weather (including less than 3 knots of wind) and, yes, docking by myself in a high winds is a bit of an art. If she was bigger, yup, it would be a bit more challenging. But, these are the skills that we learn - the first time is always a sweat.

She doesn't point as high as my good old Carter 30 (also, a forgiving boat, thank heaven) but she goes like HELL on a reach and downwind with, oh, so much less rigging and .. uh ...  stuff. 

I suppose that I'd sail off the mooring if conditions permit but, if not, use prudence, turn on the iron pig for 2 minutes and be done with it !! 

Enjoy your boat.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[ed ‹(•¿•)›]

Hi Ernie;

I ALWAYS single hand.  (I guess that no one wants to sail with me)

However with a Lewmar electric halyard winch, mounted on Starboard cabin top, Strong Track,

a sail cover that zips along the top, and lives permanently zipped around the mast,

and a bow thruster, I find getting in and out of a slip is a piece of cake.  The bow thruster lets me pivit the boat about the keel.  (Horizontally, of course, not vertically)

 

Ed Collis

ORION VII

Toronto

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ernie Abugov N22 #56 "Moustaches" EYC-Toronto

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 10:28 AM

Subject: Re: Sail handling at the mooring

--

[Chris]

Group,

My original post was a question of sail handling on a mooring. I do not use a slip and have no supportable need for a bow thruster. Single handling my Nonsuch 30 is easy but could be made easier if I could raise the sail while on the mooring. I do have an power winch that makes raising the sail much easier and quicker. To date I motor off the mooring and while under way raise the sail. But I am looking for a quieter departure. But perhaps there is no alternative to how I am doing it now?

Chris Carlisle

Rowayton, CT

Pippin 30U #386

[Katmando]

Chris, when raising the sail, do you have the main sheet totally free and not cleated?

My 30u has a lot of mass and will not start to move until I sheet in.  You should already be head to wind at a mooring if moored at the bow.

Raise the sail, let it flog if the wind is high. Unslip the mooring. The boat will drift backwards but with the sheet loose not much.

Helm over sheet in and you are gone.

For pickup try to go head to wind before the mooring, release the sheet and have just as much steerage way needed to pick up the mooring.

I lock the rudder on both manoeuvres.

Cheers

Brian

30u Whitby Ontario 

Sent from my Nonsuch 30u

[David Biltcliffe]

Hi Chris

I have tried a number of times in different wind conditions to raise the sail on my 30 at the mooring and it always results in the sail filling and the boat veering off. One time it was not at all pretty and scared the dickens out of everyone on the boat - particularly the person trying to release the mooring pennant. The main sheet was free as well as the choker and the boom slammed out to port and then within seconds was flying toward the starboard. The  boat swung wildly. I immediately left loose the halyard and lowered the sail which was only about 2/3's up the mast. The wind speed was around 8 knots in the harbor and there is not much current at all.

I sail and race on a variety of different sloops ranging in size from 27 - 43 feet and we almost always raise the sail at the mooring without incident. When I have taken the time to think about the effect of the difference between the wish bone rig and the smaller cat boats with a conventional boom - as well as a sloop with conventional boom- that is what I think makes the difference. The conventional boom, with the main sheet loosened will not swing out as far as the wish bone can and will.  Another factor I have considered is that my sail is very old and can be described as blown out, so it is thin and reacts to any breeze by bellying out quickly as it is raised - filling with air. Perhaps with the new sail I have being made for this season, that factor might not be as much of an issues.

I may try again this season in light air and maybe with the main sheet slacked but not completely free. I am not optimistic but it is worth trying.

All in all, I agree with the comments/suggestions that you motor off the mooring, head into the wind and then raise the sail. From my experience, it makes the start of the sail far more controlled and worry free.

I do not have an electric winch. I use a cordless battery powered winch rite and I am very pleased with its performance and utility. I single hand frequently and it has made it a  much better experience. I can also take it with me on other boats without an electric winch to make my crew duties easier with the main and the jib trimming. It also works to trim the main sheet on my boat even under load. 

Considering all the other positives already mentioned about how easy it is to sail a Nonsuch, having to use the motor to get on an off the mooring is a minor trade off.

Have a great weekend.

David

Spray 1981 30C #93

South Dartmouth and Westport Point, MA

[Ernie Abugov N22 #56 "Moustaches" EYC-Toronto]

Hi Chris -

Couple of questions - (because I'm getting "curiouser").

You mention a "quiet' departure several times - is there actually an issue regarding the running of the engine and disturbing others ?

And ... do you have an autopilot ? Those of us who do would blithely motor off, point her into the wind and be able to leave the wheel confidently to set the sail. Without an autopilot (or a helmsperson) AND some wind/current, yes, hoisting an N30 sail could get interesting (tho electricity sure helps).

Ernie A. in Toronto

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[Mike]

I single hand my Nonsuch 30U boat most of the time. When I tried to sail off the mooring in a fairly light wind one day the boat started to sail forward and the mooring line got caught between the rudder and the hull. Had to drop sail but, at least the boat was technically connected to the mooring. Then I had to rig another line to the mooring so I could jump in the water and release the original mooring line that was jammed around the rudder shaft. Needless to say when that was all done I decided to stay on the mooring and lean back with a libation for the rest of the afternoon. :) As for leaving the mooring quietly my Electric Propulsion system takes care of that! :) Now I just let go the pennant line and motor fifty feet to the channel and raise sail there. Much less drama and things that can go wrong doing it that way.

Mike

BIANKA

1986 30U

http://biankablog.blogspot.com

 

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[Ernie Abugov N22 #56 "Moustaches" EYC-Toronto]

So, clearly, the answer is: Electric Propulsion !!

Frankly, a pretty good answer.....

Ernie A. in Toronto

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[Chris]

David,

I like you have owned and sailed a variety of sloop rigged boats over my 50+ years of sailing. A majority of that time I have sailed single handedly. I do not like to race but prefer to enjoy the more laid back and quiet way to spend time under sail. That is why I moved to a Nonsuch so I had only one line to tend and not spend my time adjusting various sheets. 

I would like to sail off a mooring mainly because I have always done so. (Never had a slip.) I do have an autopilot and up until now use it as I hoist and drop my sail. But all of your comments helped me remember that Pippin is a catboat and as such has different sailing characteristics both good and less so. All-in-all I love the a Nonsuch's ease of handling and am willing to turn on the kicker to get off and on the mooring. I was hoping that someone had figured out the sail handling issue posed.

Thank you all for some thoughtful remarks. 

Chris Carlisle

Rowayton, CT 

Pippin 30U #386

[Katmando]

I bet all you guys having trouble have not left off your topping lift before hoist.

Also it is important that the mooring line comes over the bow and is bent onto the anchor bollard. If it comes in a hawse hole and gets cleated to the starboard or port cleat she is going to dance all over the place as she is not truly head to wind.

Cheers

Brian

30u

Sent from my Nonsuch 30u

[R D Young]

If you have not already, you might want to consider installing a little item I learned of on the Nonsuch website maintenance archives. I believe it is called an inside out cam cleat. It is a cam cleat that mounts on the mast on the inside of a bracket which straddles the halyard. It enables you to raise the main at the mast hand over hand. You then pull the halyard away from the mast into the cam cleat, which holds the halyard in place until you can get aft to tension the halyard. On our boat I can get the main within a foot or so of the black band by hand. Raising the main at the mast is much faster and easier than doing it from the cockpit, much less friction. In your case, you could raise the main, secure the halyard in the cam cleat, drop your mooring and then head to the cockpit to fully tension the halyard and steer the boat away. If you can’t find the item I refer to, let me know and I will try to more fully describe it to you. I almost always raise the main on our boat at the mast, using the cam cleat, whether I have crew or not. Not only is it quicker and less laborious but it also much easier to see if there is something wrong with the rigging. Visibility from the cockpit with our dodger and bimini is somewhat limited.

David Young
Bay Cat, 30U #402
Traverse City / Suttons Bay, MI

On Mar 27, 2016, at 12:04 PM, David Biltcliffe <dbiltc...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Peter Grabow]

Hi Chris,

I am going to add my two cents to this discussion... S/V CAKEWALK III was on a mooring ball for her first 18 years (Manhasset Bay). We (my father an I) sailed off, and onto, the mooring frequently. Though we had two on board, the sequence is the same and was hardly ever hurried.  I have single handed CAKEWALK III for the last dozen years and have on many occasion sailed off of a mooring ball, and have motored onto a mooring ball countless times.  I have anchored/un-anchored (no windlass) on many occasions using the method outlined below if the winds weren't too strong.

The mainsheet must be free to run.
The choker should be eased, at least partially.
The helm should be 'locked down' with the rudder straight (fore/aft), but not too tight as you will need to get it free quickly.  The rudder moving over hard to either side may be what is causing  your sail to suddenly fill.
If the above steps are followed, the boat should stay into the wind and keep your boom over the center of the boat.
Even if she somehow drifts off-center, the loose mainsheet and choker should keep the sail headed up into the wind and prevent it from filling.

If all appears stable (and you are aligned with the other boats and not swinging) and you have already chosen your route (always to the aft of the boats adjacent to you - you will hardly ever be able to get past their bow and mooring ball - just too risky to try!) based on the wind direction, drop the mooring pennants
walk back to the helm
release the helm lock but keep the helm centered
and then start taking in the mainsheet (but don't bring the sheet in tight - you should end up close to a reach/broad reach)
as the main begins to fill, fall-off/turn the helm to the direction you want the boat to go

The boat should have drifted back at least half a boat length by this time, and as the sail begins to fill and give you forward motion, you should have sufficient way and room to sail under/aft of the adjacent boat. As the boom will most likely be in a reach/broad reach be aware of the other boats that were aft of you to make sure you don't clip them with your boom!
Once clear of the adjacent boat, you should be able to bring in more of the main and head further up, if that is the direction you want to go.

Once clear of the mooring field you can take the choker in the rest of the way.

If the wind is blowing rather hard I would turn the engine on, just as security in the event the extra power/maneuverability is needed.

Like anything, getting the hang of it will take practice, so do it several times when the winds are light, and with the engine on in neutral just in case, until you get the feel for it!

My father was a brilliant sailor and I was fortunate to learn from him... he could pick his way, under sail, through the mooring field when returning and judge the wind and the boat so well he would make his turn into the wind, bring the sail to luff dead center over the boat, and drift the boat right up to the pick-up stick almost always with the pick-up stick dead-centered in the bowsprit. I know there are many others in this group who can do this too, but I was always impressed by my dad's abilities!  But, if the wind was blowing hard, he would have the engine on, in neutral as a precaution.

The Nonsuch is a fantastic boat to single-hand and constantly amazes other sailors that she can be handled so easily by one person... but it takes some experimentation, patience, and plenty of practice, so sail as often as you can, and you will get it!!!

Enjoy!

Peter Grabow
S/V CAKEWALK III 30U 1987 430
Jersey City, NJ

[Greg Silver]

Hi Chris,

The Nonsuch is one of the easiest boats  to single hand that you can find (for its size and displacement). Noting that you have to tend with a current at your mooring, my technique may not work in your situation, but here's how I sail off a mooring:

- Your boat is pointed into the wind hanging on the mooring. Get everything you need to be ready  to sail  away - instruments and radio on, boat hook handy, etc. 

- If you have two bridles to your mooring, let one go so you only need to drop one when you're ready to depart.

-  Then raise your sail and leave the sheet loose. The key is to leave the sheet loose so the sail won't catch the wind. The sail should flutter, you're in irons, at least your sail is in irons.

- Go forward and drop the bridle and scoot back to the helm. 

-  Adjust your mainsheet and set off on a beam reach (at least, don't try to point high at first) until the boat gets some momentum and then set your course.

Coming back to the mooring under sail is a bit trickier but can be done with some practice:

- have your boat hook ready at the helm

- your bridle will be laying downwind of your mooring ball

- approach the floating bridle close hauled and go into irons, let the boat coast slowly under its momentum straight into the wind, until the bridle is abeam of you. This takes some practice so that you are basically dead slow or stopped when you get abeam of the bridle.

- make sure your sheet is loose so the sail flutters

- pick up the bridle with your boat hook and walk it forward to your samson post.

- you should be able to sit on the mooring with your sail up, walk back to the cockpit and drop it, again with the sheet loose.

- when the sail's down, centre the wishbone, cleat your sheet hard, and go forward and secure your bridles

Remember to leave your choker loose while raising  your sail. Trim it after the sail is up, while you are in irons. Loosen it again before you drop your sail. This makes it easier to raise and drop the sail - by reducing friction at the sail track.

You may want to leave your engine running (in neutral) while you practice and get confident departing the mooring - so you can kick it into gear if you have to avoid a hazard.

I'm sure other experienced Nonsuch owners will weigh in with advice. Cat-rigged boats are dream machines when it comes to single-handing in almost any conditions - compared to any other type of rig, especially with the halyard led aft.

I would not recommend sailing onto a dock or wharf until you get really good at coasting to dead slow in irons, and when the wind is right. Most dockmasters won't want you to do this anyways, but it can be done, and I often sail onto my private floating dock. Our prevailing winds are perfect for this as I can be heading straight into the wind to approach my dock, and the boat is straight into the wind when alongside the dock. I have my dock rigged with a long line fastened at both ends (to dock cleats fore and aft). This line has a loop tied in it at about mid point. I just grab that line with my boat hook and bring the loop over my midship cleat, then I get on the dock with my bow and stern lines in hand and cleat them to the dock, stern first  (adjacent the cockpit) then bow.

Have fun!

Greg Silver

Misty Cat - N26C #121

St. Peter's, Cape Breton

Chris <ccarl...@gmail.com>: Mar 25 01:33PM -0400

[Jim Cosgrove]

David,

I'd certainly would like to know more about this device if you can supply a link or photo. 

Thanks,

Jim Cosgrove

FATE 30U #343

Galesville, MD

Sent from my iPhone

[David Biltcliffe]

Good morning Jim

I hace attached a picture of the under side of the winch rite showing the winch bit in place. There is a handle grip on the left side of the pic that you squeeze to operate it . It will work clock wise and counter clockwise in a two speed manner.

If you do a search - Google - you should fine video's illustrating the operation. I purchased mine through Defender in Connecticut for around $550.00. It works so well, one of my sailing friends with a CS Merlin bought one the day after he saw me use it.

David

Spray 1981 30C #93

South Dartmouth and Westport Point, MA

[David Biltcliffe]

Good morning

You make a good point. I do not normally adjust my topping lift at all. I will give that a try.

I usually set my topping lift once early in the season and do not touch it unless it loosens up. I have considered adding a rope clutch or something similar to the boom to make the adjustments easier but have not gotten to that project.

Thanks

David

[Allen Perrins]

Hi

The cleat rig is shown in a photo under my name. It is known as

an O'Neil cleat originated as far as I know in the Chesapeake. The

gentleman was a Nonsuch sailor.  Check in with that local group.

Someone should know something. On my boat it is at the

level of the combo running light.

Al

Barbcat NS30C  #170

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Cosgrove
Sent: Mar 27, 2016 9:48 PM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Sail handling at the mooring

David,

I'd certainly would like to know more about this device if you can supply a link or photo. 

Thanks,

Jim Cosgrove

FATE 30U #343

Galesville, MD

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 27, 2016, at 6:42 PM, R D Young <rdyo...@me.com> wrote:

If you have not already, you might want to consider installing a little item I learned of on the Nonsuch website maintenance archives. I believe it is called an inside out cam cleat. It is a cam cleat that mounts on the mast on the inside of a bracket which straddles the halyard. It enables you to raise the main at the mast hand over hand. You then pull the halyard away from the mast into the cam cleat, which holds the halyard in place until you can get aft to tension the halyard. On our boat I can get the main within a foot or so of the black band by hand. Raising the main at the mast is much faster and easier than doing it from the cockpit, much less friction. In your case, you could raise the main, secure the halyard in the cam cleat, drop your mooring and then head to the cockpit to fully tension the halyard and steer the boat away. If you can’t find the item I refer to, let me know and I will try to more fully describe it to you. I almost always raise the main on our boat at the mast, using the cam cleat, whether I have crew or not. Not only is it quicker and less laborious but it also much easier to see if there is something wrong with the rigging. Visibility from the cockpit with our dodger and bimini is somewhat limited.

David Young
Bay Cat, 30U #402
Traverse City / Suttons Bay, MI

On Mar 27, 2016, at 12:04 PM, David Biltcliffe <dbiltc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have tried a number of times in different wind conditions to raise the sail on my 30 at the mooring and it always results in the sail filling and the boat veering off.

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[Jay Montgomery NS30 Artichoke]

David,  I searched unsuccessfully the maintenance site for the mast cam cleat.  It sounds like a simple and effective solution for us single handers.  If you could direct within the maintenance site, I would appreciate.  If not could you describe where on the mast you positioned the cam cleat.  Thanks,

Jay Montgomery

Artichoke

[Douglas Haas]

We had a sail with Jerry O'Neil, as I remember near Annapolis.

If I remember his cam cleat it had the cam cleat on a "U" so it was
away from the mast by an inch or more, he could raise the sail most of
the way standing at the mast and pull it outward into the cleat. He
could then walk back and finish raising the sail with the cockpit
winch. (Which would pull the line inward toward the mast and out of
the cam cleat).
Doug Haas

[R D Young]

Jim and Jay, I looked online today and wasn’t able to locate the article I was thinking of. When the owner’s listserve was moved to Google, I think not everything carried over. My boat is still under winter cover. I will be happy to take a picture of my bracket, when I uncover it in a couple weeks, but send me an email sometime after 4/15 to remind me or I will surely forget.

In the meantime, I will try to describe it more completely for you. My bracket is made of 1/8” aluminum bar, about 2” wide, 12-14” long bent into a squared off U shape, with two short tabs angling outward from each leg at the open end. The closed end of the U is about 4 long, the legs of the U about 3” and the tabs 1-2”. The cam cleat is mounted on the inside of the closed end of the U bracket, with the line entry side facing upward. The bracket is positioned over the main halyard, 8-9’ feet off the deck and attaches to the mast with a hose clamp that goes around the mast, over the tabs and through slots at the junctions of the legs and tabs (and under the halyard and sail track). To engage the halyard in the cam cleat, after raising the main, you just pull the halyard slightly away from the mast and downward. The beauty of this setup, as opposed to simply mounting a cam cleat directly on the mast, is that as soon as you apply any additional tension on the halyard, the halyard pulls out of the cam cleat and runs free. It is quite ingenious and sounds much more complicated than it really is.

Hope this helps.

David Young
Bay Cat, 30U #402
Traverse City / Suttons Bay, MI

[medjd3]

Here are some pictures to go with the description below. 

 

Jeff Dix

Fairwind

N30U #514

Annapolis, MD

 

		Halyard Cam Cleat VIEW SLIDE SHOW DOWNLOAD ALL This album has 4 photos and will be available on SkyDrive until 6/26/2016.

 

From: R D Young

Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 12:03 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Sail handling at the mooring

 

[Bill Baxter]

Thanks for posting this, Jeff – I do a lot of single handling and having an extra pair of hands at the mast will be a welcome assist.

 

Bill Baxter

Persistence NS30 #507

Penetang ON

[R D Young]

That’s it. Thanks for posting the pics Jeff.