Battery Location Nonsuch 26c

[Thor Powell, Nonsuch 26, Victoria BC]

I currently have 2  wet cell golf cart batteries in a box located in the starboard lazarette.  Easy to keep an eye on.  

I am thinking of changing to carbon - lead.  Better performance and less maintenance. Given I will not be checking the water levels I was toying with relocating these house batteries.  

I could use one of the storage areas under the quarter berth.  However  I was wondering if anyone has placed batteries in the area under the steering quadrant.  If so how did you install the containment box.  

I am looking at 2 6V batteries . 380 - 400 amps and each weights 125 lbs.  So I am not moving on and off the boat LOL. 

[Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene]

Hi Thor

My two old 100ah lead acid batteries are under the Starboard quarter berth. This is where they were installed at the factory. Two group 31 just fit.

If the batteries were under(near ) the quadrant, how would you get to the shaft coupling and rear of the engine?  If you had to , you would need to move those batteries.

Timely discussion because I was researching replacing the lead batteries with Lithium. However this idea appears dead in the water because my insurance company's rules about lithium batteries make it impractical to use them.

Tom

26C #28

Penetang

[Thor Powell, Nonsuch 26, Victoria BC]

I like carbon-lead as they are pretty much a drop in for the way the boat is run electrically and we're happy with that set up.  AS well they offer a step up in performance with out the issues of Li.  I thought of AGM's but I know too many folks who found their life span was very short.  Couple of folks I sail with have used carbon  for a few years and are happy with them 

I have access panels to the stuffing box in each of the quarter beths so I a not using the lazarettos.  I can nearly fit down there to the engine in any event and getting back out would be a nightmare. 

Since the carbon batteries are  sealed there is no real reason to visit them. I'd need access to the battery fuse.

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Thor,

 on La Reina the area under the quarter berth is not high enough to take a golf cart style battery. My group 31s are located there. They weigh about 68 lbs a piece. I wold not like to try to maneuver 125 lbs batteries in there. I seem to recall seeing pictures of batteries located just in front of the quadrant but I can't remember where I saw the photo. 250 ponds would require a well fastened base and boxes. Lifting the battereis up into the boxes would require a very strong agile person. And no I am not the man for that job.

Mark Powers

[Thor Powell, Nonsuch 26, Victoria BC]

I have two choices,  Go with 4 batteries @ 230 amps each.  OR two at  430 .  The 230 amp one will be 65 lbs each, so 250lbs the 430 are 127 each.  For handling I may use the smaller ones and just have two banks.  I have one battery box, just need to make another one.  I am heading to the boat today to scope out, what how and where to secure them. You are right not a simple task.  

I am disappointed you decline to lift my 250 lbs of lead...

[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Hi Tom,

Battery management is a hot topic these days with any battery chemistry.  Longevity and safety concerns aren't entirely based on battery chemistry, power management is also a factor.   

Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) (LFP) with appropriate power management for both charge and discharge seems to be where things are headed.  Eventually insurance companies will catch up.

Insurance companies were probably spooked by stories like the 2023 sinking of Theros.  Which used a DIY setup with a repurposed Toyota Leaf battery.

We're all wondering when the next "new thing" will come along and displace LFP.

Also nothing wrong with tried and true batteries, which also benefit ( especially AGM ) from proper power management.

On Soave, POs have added, removed, and moved stuff.  I'm looking to my next battery refresh as an opportunity to restore fore/aft trim which seems to have favored weight to aft over the years.  

Rob Cohen

s/v SOAVE

NS33 #009

Cedar Point YC

Westport, CT

[Mike]

On a related topic, Thor, do you expect that your stock alternator/regulator will require any upgrades to charge the carbon-lead batteries? I understand that their charging requirement is a little different than flooded lead-acid batteries (for example, the charge voltage should be lower).

Mike

NS30C #26

Port Moody BC

[Thor Powell, Nonsuch 26, Victoria BC]

Nothing is simple , otherwise it would not be a boat as someone once said.  

I have  a 125 amp Powerline alternator and she is a beast.  It uses a Balmar regulator that dials back the output to 80 amps as all I have the  1/2 belt.  So far so good.  

However the 200 amp golf cart batteries rarely get below 75% and at that point the acceptance is about 20 amps and fall off a cliff as it goes to 100%.  So right now kinda over kill.  The previous over had an inverter and a microwave hence the big alternator.  We removed the never used inverter and microwave. 

With the lead carbon and maybe 300 amps the acceptance will be higher but still 80 amps is plenty fast.  I have 100 watts of solar but right now the demand is so low as we do not have refrigeration I really have no idea what they are capable of.  I am guessing 20 -30 amps a day .  But with consuming 10 amp a day, mostly at night with the anchor light and a couple of devices charging I see 3 amps for 2 -3 hours while before the batteries crawl back up to full.

I am going to drag the batteries down to 60% then see how long it takes the 100 watt panels ( 2 -50 watts) to bring them up absent any demand.  Once I know that I'll be able to decide on the refit .

I plan to use the existing golf  cart bank as a start and remove the 13 year old start battery. The lead carbon will be the house bank. I suspect 300 amps will be enough to support refrigeration. 

I'm still in the research phase of converting the cold box.

[Mike]

Thanks for the info, Thor. I'm at the stage where my house batteries are 10 year old 6 volt lead acid (~200 Amp hr) and I have the alternator that came standard on the Volvo diesel.  Likely need to replace or enhance, but am considering the options. 

Mike

[Thor Powell, Nonsuch 26, Victoria BC]

Solar has really moved the cheese so to speak.  Rob and Paul can certainly say more about this magic!  

We have 2 ..50 watt solar panels on the bimini and by noon the batteries are full.  We consume 10 - 12 amps per day, mostly the solenoid for the propane tank, then led anchor light followed by LED cabin lights and charging devices.  I'm guessing 16   amps / day  is within reach of the current solar array.  So the case for large alternators kinda fades. The need to have more than 80 amps off the alternator needs to be seriously thought out.    As does shore power. In fact for marina hopping the $10 charge for shore power adds up to a solar set up in a year or two and removes the exposure to the issues of hooking up to shore power.  Our shore power cable has been sent to lazaretto jail..

Carbon batteries give a big boost over the wet cell design in  more rapid rate of recharge and 5 fold life span.  We have been getting 8 years from a set of Trojan T105's. Faster charging  will help the solar array and the alternator  as  the last 20% with wet cells the acceptance rate drops to a crawl.   

If I was to add refrigeration I  think I'd need 400 amps in wet cell technology  just to deal with the slow rate of recharging for the last 15% and the damage from letting the batteries cycle to  80% over time is still an issue.  Carbons don't suffer this partial charge damage  and the faster rate of charge  effectively increases their useful capacity.  So I may only need at best 300 in battery bank  to deal with the refrigeration. 

 The only disadvantage compared to Li I can see is the weight 200 lbs more for about the same capacity. Li will charge faster than carbon but not materially . Li would require most of us to rethink how the overall charging system is designed to gain any advantage, . Cabling, fusing, dual bank management etc.   Carbon requires none of this.  

Not sure what is happing regarding insurance.  and Li. Knowing insurance companies they never miss a beat when it comes to risk and price.  

[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Thor,

Would you share more about the power usage of your propane solenoid ?  I assumed Soave's solenoid would  only draw power when in the open position ( propane on ) so it's power consumption would be negligible unless we cook a lot.  Maybe I should take a second look ?

For daily power consumption the unit of measure would be amp-hours @12 volts ( assuming you are running a 12v system ) .... 10-12 amp-hours/day is a thrifty boat. 

Rob....

[Thor Powell, Nonsuch 26, Victoria BC]

Our consumption  moves around.... depending on the season and where we are anchored.  

The solenoid  draws 1 amp.   maybe 30 minutes per day.  so 1/2 amp...  We  close it after every use.  I assume there is zero draw when closes as it is  nominally close.d device .  

We have LED cabin  lights , they draw 0.01. and are one for less than an hour.... Fan for the composting toilet .01  amp, battery combiner ( standby) .15 a.  ..so not measurable.  But let's use 1 amp for everything 

The anchor light 8 hours at .2 amps. 1.6 amps

https://sailboatstuff.com/lt_LED_tri_anchor_light.html

VHF radio, we do not use it  I find listening to radio chatter from 40 miles away highly  annoying.  And honestly if I can't see you you're too far away for me to help you. I use a hand held. .  But that can add a couple of amps (2 amps on the transmit side and  1 on receive).  We've come to threscue of a few folks over the yers but  never farther than 10 miles. 

Here where it gets fuzzy, 

iPad and phones,  Samsung Tablet for chart plotter., charging the hand held battery.  probably   3  amps for 4 devices..

Depth Sounder 1  amp / day.  when sailing

We're not sailing 12 hour days any more or sailing at night....  but we are charging more "devices". 

We have foot pumps at the galley and head and rarely use the pressure water as  it uses 40% more water.  

Now with the solar running my  amp counter is showing a net number and it's always positive.. my guess  so 5 - 10 amps  per day.  With a 200 amp golf cart battery  pre solar we're ok for 4 days  before we start thinking about it.   Pre solar we have run the bank down to  70% and it too the alternator 4 hours to recharge.  

The solar panels come on around 30 minutes  after sunrise and  are on float by  noon , the last bit of juice into a wet cell takes forever.  Give you an example.  We left the dock with full batteries, motored for  2 hours  before my Balmar driven 80 amp alternator decided the batteries were full and shut off the tach.  .....   Most if not all going into the start battery.  Like pushing string.   Solar is magic. 

We are installing refrigeration and that's going to add 25 amps per day to I am thinking we'll go to  lead carbon for the house, up the capacity to 330 - 400 amp hr range  and more the current T105's over to  "start" to replace a very old start battery.   For us the  cost and ,more importantly complexity of Li ,  more than off sets t  the space and weigh advantage for a small bank like 300 ah   The current design   has been bullet proof  for  us.   With Li we'd need a BMS, 2 battery to battery changers switches and a multitude of fuses.  

Recently replaced all the large battery cables and went from welding cable to 1/0   . The modern crimped connections and larger cable have made a measurable difference.  I now have a "on /both/off"  vs "1/2/both/off" off switch that is more practical.  Move the alternator to the house bank vs the starter l a Maine Sail recommendation.  

Next on the list the bird nest of wires  that is behind the 

A warmer climate like the Chesapeake ,  freezer,  radar,, AIS banking away,  pressure water  using 60 - 80 amps per day it might be a different story.  So every boat will be different and certainly there is  a place for Li .  Just not us.  But is great to have choices  that were not around when these boats were first built.  

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

I suspect the fridge will draw more than 25 amp hrs during the summer days.

Mark Powers

[Thor Powell, Nonsuch 26, Victoria BC]

Yes.. the numbers I get seem to range from  15  to 35 amps.  I suspect I can get 20 Amp out of the solar array per day do I need a battery system to support  15 amp for 5 days.  or 75 to 100 amps.  @ .4 for Lead Carbon 300 ah battery bank or a 200 ah Li at .6 

[Thor Powell, Nonsuch 26, Victoria BC]

So... I have decided to use Carbon batteries, about 300ah .   They are a  drop in to my existing electrical design, rugged and simple.  They will allow partial discharge cycles which increases their capacity somewhat over wet cells.  I get a slice of the Li pie without the issues. 

  

The decision came down to cost as against energy density, and unwillingness to take on the complications of a seamanlike lithium installation.