Spinnaker on 26C

[jo...@deerhaven.ca]

We've been fooling around with flying an asymmetrical spinnaker on our 26C. We have been club racing and have asked PHRF to give us a rating using this spinnaker. Has anyone been successful in getting  rated with a rig like this in the past? we are running into some resistance ... :)

This spinnaker is actually smaller than i would like...its just what i have at the moment

Before I a lot of push back, on making a simple boat complicated, this was intended as a light wind rig. The day the photo was taken we were sailing boat on boat with a C&C 34 with 2 sails flying and they couldn't catch us! we were sailing in 9-10 knots of wind

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Frankly, John, your boat looks fabulous with that kite. Pretty as a picture and a perfectly smart way to deal with light winds. I have never flown any sort of kite or DRS on my NS22 but plenty of other Nonsuchers have. I don't think that you are "complicating" anything - I think it's an innovative idea.

I should know this (or should I ????) but this rig doesn't require a spinnaker pole, does it ?? 

Given the right conditions, I think it's a damn good thought. All of that said, I would be more wary of flying a kite PLUS using the main, at the same time. Somehow, I find that notion a bit scary as our unstayed masts are built to handle all kinds of force coming from a mainsail, driven by a good wind. Two sails, however, just might be pushing it.

Once again - not my area of expertise. Nice spinnaker !!

Ernie A. in Toronto

[jo...@deerhaven.ca]

Thanks Ernie....we love the boat! No pole on this now. I'm looking at this as an option to allow us to pull the spinnaker around so i can sail it more directly down wind. This would also allow for the use of two sails …:). This sail is smaller ft2 than my mainsail so I'm not worried in light air about damaging the mast at least with one sail only and in light air. Looking for another good used asymmetrical. The one i have now has a luff of 37 ft. I'm think we need to be about 43ft luff to maximize the rig.

[Cedric Guthrie]

Fittings, sheets , snatch blocks etc NO POLE NIT USED WITH A BLOOPERwere available as an option when Nonsuch were built

This allowed for a Blooper to be be flown together with the mail whilst running down wind

Some advantages were gained doing so - mainly reduce rolling whilst running down wind

A definite increase in speed resulted however when racing a penalty was applied

Certainly no problem flying a blooper as far as mast strength etc is concerned just ensure you have an experienced crew on board whilst doing this( I strongly recommend the latter)

If you contact your local sailmaker they may have an old blooper lying around
Safe Sailing 

Cedric. Single Malt. 26C #207

Chester Nova Scotia

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 15, 2022, at 14:13, jo...@deerhaven.ca <jo...@deerhaven.ca> wrote:

Thanks Ernie....we love the boat! No pole on this now. I'm looking at this as an option to allow us to pull the spinnaker around so i can sail it more directly down wind. This would also allow for the use of two sails …:). This sail is smaller ft2 than my mainsail so I'm not worried in light air about damaging the mast at least with one sail only and in light air. Looking for another good used asymmetrical. The one i have now has a luff of 37 ft. I'm think we need to be about 43ft luff to maximize the rig.

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[Ron Weber]

Having sailed all types of boats including trimarans, I really do like the performance benefits of spinnakers. They would of course add complications to the sailing end of it, but that applies to any vessel. Some folks prefer the simple casual form of sailing, and others enjoy the challenge of squeezing the most out of the wind, and their vessel. I believe this idea applies to every form of nautical design including free standing rigs with a wish bone boom. I have an asymmetrical sail from a previous boat but do not have a spinnaker halyard on my N22 mast, or I would have already tried it out. I have considered that it would require more effort and complications as well as occupying a lot of precious storage space on my N22.  If those compromises aren't a problem then I would say go for it as that may add some excitement to your sailing. My personal rational would be my dread of an unplanned gybe, which just seems to be a boat not under full control. All my experience tells me that a sailing situation that is not under control is in the danger zone. 

IMHO there is no problem flying a spinnaker, however I feel it's best application would be on longer sails in more steady winds, otherwise you'd spend a lot of time hoisting and dousing sails. As Ernie wisely cautioned, I would agree that it's not prudent to fly both sails at the same time so unlike a sloop rig you would be dousing your primary sail while flying the spinnaker, and that would make for a lot more work and co-ordination. I think every one's boat should be what they want it to be, however I've known many who purchase a boat with no real understanding of their own needs and then try to morph their chosen vessel into their own vision, most often with great expense and disappointing results. If you'd like to fly a spinnaker on your Nonsuch, please do, however if spinnaker sailing is your priority, then you might consider a different design.

Just my 3 cents (adjusted for inflation)

Ron Weber

N22 Magic Time

Punta Gorda Fl

On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 12:37:15 PM UTC-4 Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto wrote:

[jo...@deerhaven.ca]

Thanks Cedric, I was not aware that you could factory rig a Nonsuch with a spinnaker. I have never see this on any of the literature....good to know. We already enjoy a fairly high PHRF rating (226 currently). I've heard a suggestion of 6 seconds penalty, which i have no problem with . We haver a 20 mile race coming up in a couple weeks which is almost always a down wind race for 2/3rds of it. Might be a nice place top try it out depending on the wind.

[newelljc9]

A Nonsuch 26 should be able to overtake larger boats when on the run with her regular sail as long as the mainsheet is long enough to permit the boom to go to 90 degrees and even beyond 90. The choker needs to be eased to create an airfoil. It is very satisfying overtaking a fully manned yacht with all hands trimming sails when one is passing them single handed with little to do.

The one weakness is the fixed choker block on the mast when running on the starboard gybe. If I continued using a wishbone, I would have switched it to a flip flop Harken. (See photo) which aligns the choker with the sheave. I used one of these mounted on the cockpit combing to replace the original Schaefer stand up block which prodded me in the back too often and finally hooked my sweater pinning me to the seat. I had to remove the sweater to extract myself. The flip flop solved the problem as well as removing the the risk of the block failing causing the wishboom to flail until it is lassoed.  I had the bitter end of the mainsheet anchored elsewhere so at least I could control the boom if the block failed even when single handed. Fortunately it never did.

I would not be tempted to add a spinnaker. It has no appeal to me. It has to be stored somewhere along with its sheets and needs to be put away dry otherwise one is inviting mould down below. Bloopers were a passing fad in the early days until they were found to benefit sailmakers far more than Nonsuches.  That was the advantage of a Nonsuch. Its standard rig without stays made it very efficient downwind. I like spinnakers on other boats. They make the sea scape more colourful.

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto

 

On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 10:40:00 AM UTC-4 jo...@deerhaven.ca wrote:

[jo...@deerhaven.ca]

Hi Cedric

Thanks for your response. Do you have anything, showing that it was an option from Hinterhoeller? any literature or anything? I'm trying to get a PHRF rating and the local committees are saying it is a major modification and hitting me harder than i think is fair, 27 seconds at this point and the spinnaker is smaller than my main sail!?? Anything would be helpful. You sound like you know for a fact this was a factory option. Thanks

On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 1:43:40 PM UTC-4 Cedric Guthrie wrote:

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

John,

If you're an INA member, you should've gotten a copy of the Nonsuch Registry 2022 edition.  If so, you'll find on page 73 a copy of the Hinterhoeller Running Rigging Specifications for Nonsuch 26s which shows that blooper halyards and sheets were an option at least as far back as 1981.  That's the date on the factory materials.

Don't know for sure, but that might help.

In case anyone else is interested, the same is true for 30's and 36's.  For some reason, they're not mentioned in the material for 22s and 33s.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233

[Joe Valinoti]

That’s why people don’t fly spinnakers on Nonsuches – the PHRF change!!

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

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[jo...@deerhaven.ca]

Thanks for the tip Bob. That was helpful. I also contacted Mark Ellis Yacht designs to see if they could shed some light on this as well.

[acco...@mpcg.ca]

Good Morning,

 

Sorry for the delay in my response regarding “Blooper” extras.

 

I have been able to talk to the broker who sold the Nonsuch line int his area and he was able to verify that “Blooper Gear” were extras from the factory

 

Swivel Block and Shackle attached to the crane on the front of the mast.

Suitable length Halyard complete with shackle  ( Some folks consider this a spare main halyard which is obviously not suitable at all for the mainsail.)

Stainless Eye bolt on foredeck for Blooper tack

Two swivel snatch blocks with appropriate lengths sheets.

 

As you say your handicap will change in the “Wrong” direction should you elect to use such an additional sail.

 

Also YOU are instrumental in causing a potential decrease in speed!!!  - you will need additional  crew(Additional Weight!!) to yourself to fly this blooper

Namely – One tending halyard – this height has to be continually adjusted according to  conditions

One crewmember to tend the sheet

One crew member to tend main

 

Thus probably around 600 lbs extra weight.

 

Take your pick and Sail Safe and Fast

 

Cedric   -- Single Malt – 26C #3207

Chester Nova Scotia

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of jo...@deerhaven.ca
Sent: August 24, 2022 1:32 PM
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Spinnaker on 26C

 

Hi Cedric

 

 

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[John Vincent]

Two of us, today!

John Vincent 

Sales Representative 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 27, 2022, at 9:21 AM, acco...@mpcg.ca wrote:



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[BRIAN CAYER]

John,

Nice way to turn a cat into a bird on a calm day.

Brian

Boat-less in New England

On Aug 27, 2022, at 6:05 PM, John Vincent <jo...@deerhaven.ca> wrote:



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[Tim in STL, NS26Ue White O'morn]

I see the specs for the Blooper Halyard and sheets, but there is no mention of the halyard sheave.  Where does that Blooper halyard go at the masthead?

Tim in STL
White O’morn NS e26U #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO

[John Vincent]

I have attached a photo of the mast head. There is a fitting on the front, i believe is for a block to attach for the blooper. In out cast we had a custom bracket made by Klaco to atach the spin halyard.

John & Sue Vincent

Salem, 26C

Picton, ON

[Thor (26C Brentwood Bay BC)]

I had Blooper for a while on my 25. Had a sock and was easy to launch and fly....BUT  over 9 knots apparent it drove the bow down 3/4 of the wat tp the top rail.  And was largely blanked by the main event so you must drop the main.  All in all not worth the ost and effort IMHO. I never seen one used......

A gennacker, that to me might be worth trying but $$$$$. 

As for PHRF, you'd race in Spinacker vs JAM I assume....  about 6 to 10 seconds is kinda the range. Barb Melanson might be able to help as she races her Nonsuch .  Jack Lombard as well.

https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/threads/jam-rating-adjustment.121617/

[John Vincent]

As mentioned above, the main significantly blankets the flying sail making it practically impossible to fly both sails at the same time. I plan to experiment this year with a bow sprit to push the tack further away, hoping to reduce the blanketing. Also, it suspect if i reef the main, it should allow additional wind to pass and fill the spinnaker . I haven't tried this yet ... ;)

John Vincent

Salem 26C

PEYC Picton, ON

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

John -

The thing that I wonder about is the much-increased force on the unstayed mast from two sails as opposed to one, Granted, when flying just the main in perky winds, there is a fair bit of strain and flexing but this is all calculated in the design. And, if you are flying both the main and some kind of a kite, you are doing this when the winds are not blowing like stink. 

I can see using a lightweight kite in light winds to go downwind - ish. It would be quieter and calmer than the mainsail (and boom) possibly dinging against the mast, etc. Yes, it could/would involve more "stuff", etc. I, personally, would not feel that comfy with two sails up in any sort of genuine wind.

(Full disclosure: I have actually been wrong before.)

Ernie A. in Toronto

[John Vincent]

I actually only see a use for the spinnaker in light air conditions when you want all the sail area you can get. As we know, these tubs can be challenging to get/keep moving in light air. I think in heavy wind, you will loose any advantage anyway. Hopefully i can sow it off at the Rendezvous! :)

John Vincent

Salem, N26C

PEYC, Picton, ON

[Brian Godfrey]

Your mention of a "kite" reminded me of this:
<https://www.yachtingworld.com/extraordinary-boats/armorkite-650-kite-surfing-yacht-sailing-126194>

It wouldn't be blanketed by your main sail and it wouldn't exert any additional stress on your mast...

Brian

-- Brian Godfrey

[newelljc9]

A mechanic servicing my engine remarked that he always liked working on Nonsuches because the owners kept their boats fresh and free from mould down below. My reply was it was not so much the diligence of the owners but the design itself. The single sail and its lines are never stored below during the sailing season so there is less damp brought below. Ordinary yachts have to store their flying sails and lines etc. below. They seldom have the inclination or time to thoroughly dry them out before stowing them below decks. I have never had the desire to fly a spinnaker from Mascouche. She can overtake boats flying a spinnaker while sailing single handed. Nonsuches have plenty of storage space for essential items because they do not have to make room for a wardrobe of costly and often fragile sails and sheets to fly them.

Don't buy a Nonsuch, if you love to fly a spinnaker.

John Newell

Mascouche 26C #1

Toronto