Stainless railings

[Brian M. Godfrey]

   My teak cabintop railings were put on with regular steel screws, not stainless.  I noticed the problem when one end of one railing came loose.  When I went to remove it, most of the screws just broke off either level with the deck or slightly into the wood.  I am unable to drill out the broken screws because the drill just skips off to the side of them.  I could shift the railings fore or aft 1/4" and drill new holes, but it will leave unsightly marks on the deck from the previous setup.  I am also removing the thick layer of varnish and preparing to re-varnish them. 
   This is a lot of work and then there is the re-re-re-varnishing.  And I don't know if having those old screw holes so close to the new ones will cause any problems. 
   I'll probably do it, but first I wanted to ask if anyone has converted their cabintop railings to stainless.  If so, where did you get them, did they match the original holes, how did it go, and how do you like them now?
   I am also considering buying new replacement teak railings and would be interested if anyone has experience with them.  How is the quality?
   Thanks,

--
--Brian M. Godfrey
  Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

[fran.t...@gmail.com]

Hi Brian,

 

I just had my cabin top handrails replaced.  I can send you a pic via email.  The teak itself was $600.  The carpenter doing the finish carpenter work on my house made them and they are beautiful.  But his bill was wrapped into the house so I don’t know the labor cost.   He made them beefier than original.  We are going to have to remove them, varnish, fill the original holes then redrill through the fill because the  cabin top has compressed in that area.  I had him put them back on so I could sail this fall and we will take them off this winter when we pull the boat to paint the bottom.

 

I am redoing this boat and I have a lot of work to do.  That said, the handrails were a priority because of screw sticking out of very thin broken rail.  If someone fell on one of those screws it could some damage.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

Fran Trapp

Spirit, NS30C 106, Lake Murray, SC

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[Joe Valinoti]

That seems strange, not to use stainless hardware, Brian.  Years ago I removed mine for re-finishing and didn’t have a problem.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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From: Brian M. Godfrey

Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2024 4:50 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Stainless railings

 

[Brian M. Godfrey]

   Yes, I was surprised, too.  But they are magnetic and extremely rusted down to high-octave piano wire diameters - some with no solid metal remaining at all.  Not indicative of stainless screws.  I suppose it could have been intentional laziness, or in pursuit of a deadline, or maybe someone just goofed and didn't realize they were using the wrong screws.  The rest of the boat is properly constructed, so I'm guessing the latter.
   I was expecting the same as what you found on your boat.  I thought I'd take them off, refinish them, maybe fuss with the one problem area and put them back on.  But this is nothing tragic.  You should see how it goes when I need to do a repair on my house.  At least most of the boat was built well to start with...

--Brian M. Godfrey
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Joe, if I remember correctly, While the mouldings for Brian’s boat were done by the factory the rest was completed outside so Brian may encounter some differences.

Mark Powers

[Joe Valinoti]

I was thinking along those same lines.  I wonder if a P.O. or bad contractor removed them for re-finishing and used cheap screws when replacing them.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

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[Brian Godfrey]

   That is true, but the boat seems to have been built to a high standard and I also understood that at least some of the original Hinterhoeller crew were hired to do it. 
   I read about a lot of issues with aging Hinterhoeller made boats and I look at mine and see a nearly identical boat.  The owner's manual on the INA website is completely applicable to mine except for the engine (mine is Volvo) and a couple of options.  So I think these screws are probably just an oddity.
   Here's a screw question, though:  did Hinterhoeller use square drive screws for everything?  I've sure had to buy a lot of square drive bits since I got this boat.  Short ones, long ones, really long ones...

Brian Godfrey

-- Brian Godfrey

[Bruce Clark]

Brian, I don’t think Hinterhoeller used square (i.e. Robertson) screws everywhere, just everywhere they could. They really do make a lot of sense to work with. You need three sizes (red, green, and rarely yellow for little ones. My Bristol was stick-built - entire interior was built of wood inside the f/g hull and deck. They used probably a thousand slotted screws. Add 30 years of paint and a major chore to remove things.

Rather than varnish (and I varnished boat stuff for 50 years) can I recommend a much easier alternative. Start with two coats of Epifanes two-part clear, no need to sand between coats. Finish with one coat of Epifanes gloss varnish. The two-part protects the wood and the varnish protects the two-part. Do a maintenance coat of varnish every two years or so. I have a nephew who has a thriving business maintaining classic powerboats - some a hundred years old. He uses Epifanes varnish - but puts on 11 coats with sanding between coats - and most of these boats live in boathouses so out of the sun. I did this with the Bristol and it lasted barely six months.

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[Paul Miller]

One way to deal with broken off screws in any surface is to use a small plug cutter to cut around them allowing their removal with pliers. You may have to redrill to a standard plug size but the resulting hole can be replugged. If you use epoxy the new will be as good as the old.

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper

Cowichan Bay, B.C.

[Brian M. Godfrey]

   I thought of that, using a dowel, and I have the screw/plug extractor; but then I would be putting the screws into the end grain of the plug.  I did that once before and even with pre-drilling the threads of the screw were unable to bite into the grain of the dowel and the dowel would split.  Do you have a way to prevent this?  Particular kind of dowel or something?  Or are you talking about cutting a cross-grain plug to fill the hole?  That sounds like it would split, too, with such short grain length.

   I suppose I could remove the screw to the minimum depth necessary, fill the hole with a dowel, pre-drill the dowel to just slightly less than the screw thread diameter, but then screw on past the dowel and into fresh wood with a longer screw.  I was able to remove a few screws in their entirety and they were only 1-1/2" long.  There's plenty of wood for 2-1/2" screws.  How does that sound?

   I also thought about using threaded inserts and mounting with machine screws, but I doubt I can find any threaded inserts made from 316 stainless steel or some sort of fancy manganese bronze ones.

   And if I do all that it would mean I still have to remove all of that Cetol.  It's gotta be 1/8" thick.  The rails are on the bench in my garage, so I can use orange gel paint remover on them and that seems to work OK.  But I'm still hoping someone will write and say "yeah, I got some new stainless rails at XYZ Nonsuch Supply and they worked great!"  :-)

--Brian M. Godfrey
  Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Brian,

Getting back to your original question about stainless, I don't know if anyone has converted, but I do believe that some of the newer ones came with stainless.  My guess is that Stainless Outfitters, the same folks who do the ladders and swimsteps for INA members, would've been involved if so.  (https://stainlessoutfitters.com, 800-268-039)

There's also some Southern California companies which offer stainless railings.  Private message me and I'll dig up what I have on them.

The components for building your own stainless railing are sold in lots of places.    The two problems, I'd think, would be:

1. Getting the rails bent to match the cabintop curvature (my N26 teak rails are actually installed with about 1.5" horizontal bend, see picture)
   
   
   
2. Getting a cover over the old holes that also hides the mismatch where the gelcoat under the bases no longer matches the rest of the cabintop.

Both are manageable problems.

Another alternative is synthetic teak like PlasTeak, which can duplicate your rails if you send them to them, or can make rails to your measurement: https://www.plasteak.com/plasteak-recycled-plastic-product/custom-handrails-1-38in-wide 

If you use them, I'd recommend their thicker (admittedly more expensive) 1&3/8th inch size for greater ease of gripping over their 7/8th inch alternative.  As delivered, their product looks ok -- but you can make it look like new unfinished teak by sanding it in one direction with 40 grit sandpaper.  Once you do that, it will look like nicely sanded fresh teak, and stay that way forever without further maintenance.  The product is more flexible than teak rails, so much easier to get the bend in when installing.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

[Brian M. Godfrey]

   I've looked at stainless railings online.  Their mounting pads tend to be quite different and there would be a zillion holes to deal with.  I'd fix or replace my teak ones before I'd go to the trouble to deal with all of those new and old holes. 
   The problem is that the existing holes, 2 per mounting point, are in line with the railing.  They were done this way because the rails are made from a piece of 1" thick teak and it was the only way they could.  The best engineering, and the way all of the stainless rail fittings I've seen are made, would be with the holes separated above and below the line of the railing.
   I am thinking about a compromise where I make blocks from white UHMW which would be through-bolted to the deck and mount stainless steel rail fittings on top of them.  I'm not worried about putting a slight curve into the tubing.  Put a piece of cable through it, suspend both ends.  Sit on it, then get off and check.  Repeat.  :-)  As long as it's close there are enough mounting points to pull it to where it needs to be.
   But now that I think about it, the PlasTeak option sounds even better.  Do I remember you writing about that before?  I'm sorry if I didn't just remember it right up front!

--Brian M. Godfrey
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[Bill Kroes]

Brian,

Canatara has stainless grab bars.   They look good and are very functional.  They obviously do not have the classic look of teak but not having to constantly maintain them is an easy tradeoff for us. Ours are actually through bolted with backing plates onto the cabin top.    They were installed by the PO as part of a refit where the deck was refinished so matching the foot print wasn’t an issue.  I don’t know where they were sourced.    

Bill Kroes

“Canatara “

NS36 - #24

Sarnia Yacht Club

Lake Huron

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 11, 2024, at 1:55 PM, Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233) <rtne...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Paul Miller]

Brian, ….To address your questions:

-Yes I was referring to a plug cut with a plug cutter. They are slightly tapered and fit tightly in the hole so should not have any splitting issues if properly drilled for the pilot hole, especially if epoxied in.

-Longer screws would be better under any circumstances but I would still use plugs, never dowels.

-A cabinet scraper will make much faster work of the old Cetol than any stripper and leave a cleaner surface.

-Funny you should mention insert nuts because I just replaced all mine this year with stainless bolts and brass insert nuts. I wouldn’t worry about the brass in this case. It is not under water and should in fact never get wet.

The finished product is excellent but there were significant challenges of access, alignment, and assembly that made it a very interesting project.

I ah e lots of pictures and can explain the pitfalls to you if you decide to go that way but suffice to say …it’s not as easy as you might think…..

Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper

Cowichan Bay B.C.

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[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Brian,

I did PlasTeak handrails on my previous Nonsuch, but didn't write it up.  I later also re-did the eyebrow with PlasTeak, and did write that up.

This picture happens to show both.  You can see how the faux grain that comes on the handrails compares with the appearance of a finer grain from 40 grit sandpaper on the eyebrow. 

You can, unfortunately, also see that I was not very good at fitting plugs on the handrail (which I throughbolted), and had gotten only a little better when I put on the eyebrow.   I later improved the plugs on the eyebrow because I learned that you could gently spot heat the plug and surrounding area and sand lightly to merge them.  But I don't have a good picture of that.

I kind of like your idea of creating UHMW feet that will cover where the teak rail bases sat, and then fastening the steel rail to them.  I'll bet that could actually be made to look pretty nice.   I could imagine designing them so they flare out enough for the bolts to go on either side of rail rather than in line with them, while drilled with a 1" horizontal hole to run the rail through, so that they both cover the old holes and support the rail.  I'll bet it could look really snappy.  Hmmm....

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233