Awlgrip vs Awlcraft 2000

[Bill Cunningham]

It is time for Catnap to have her hull Awlgripped. The question is
"Awlgrip" or "Awlcraft 2000"?

Awlgrip has a stronger finish but scratch through it and it's
history. Awlcraft 2000 is supposed to buff well and last longer but
with the downside of more waxing et al.

Anyone have experience and/or preferences for either of these
products? Good, Bad or Ugly?

Looking at the cost per gallon for paint makes me think of the
signature line below :-)

--------------------------------------------------------
Bill Cunningham
S/V Catnap NS 30 #358


“A ship is always referred to as she because it costs so much to keep
one in paint and powder”

Chester W. Nimitz

[David Biltcliffe]

Why not consider gel coat rather than either of those products?

 

I just had my entire topsides - including cockpit - re gel coated after dealing with some core problems.

 

David

Spray 1981 30C #93

Westport Point, MA.

[Kristen Posey Mead, Cascade Yacht Works]

Folks,

Attached is a response from Russell. He's been doing paintwork
lately, I'll just caution, that when he says Extreme Cleanliness, he
means, Extreme Cleanliness. He's picky about how the finished project
should look, but then again, since we're dealing with brand-new boats,
we need things to come out absolutely perfect. Do Not ignore his
comments on tack cloths and additives. (My own boat--decommissioned
for extensive restoration--looks like a science project from all the
test sections he ran to compare all of the detailed prep and additive
stuff he did to get things just right.) Call or e-mail us if you need
more help...

From Russell:

I have been spraying both lately. One application note, Awlcraft 2000
is only supposed to be sprayed, can't be rolled and tipped like
Awlgrip. AwlCraft does wetsand and buff well (I'd suggest using 3M's
Perfect-It Rubbing Compound by machine, followed by machine polish,
products like Finesse-It which are formulated for gelcoat cut the hard
paint very poorly and it takes lots of material and a couple weeks per
sq ft to get it worked out). Make sure to spray up plenty of
thickness with AwlCraft. You want plenty of room to buff out orange
peel and defects initially (if you want to make it super smooth,
leaving as sprayed is also fine), and enough thickness to have many
years of performance while occasionally having to compound out fender
scratches, etc. A gouge in either paint system can't be buffed, but
light scratches from things like fenders, lines, and such can be
cleaned up with Awlcraft. I've heard Hinckley owners have not been
happy with Awlgrip and it's short lifespan on hull sides with the
scratch and scuff irrepairability. Since Awlcraft came out a few
years back many companies have been changing to it from what I hear.
It can also be repaired (though still takes care and skill) because it
can be buffed and edges feathered. Awlgrip is basically an apply,
wash occasionally, and repaint when damaged or worn. Awlcraft should
be far more repairable, both buffing out scratches and patching any
heavily worn area. For larger areas like hulls sides and decks I plan
to use AwlCraft from now on. Small parts that are easier to repaint
than repair, like hatches, hard dodgers, etc, either are fine and I'll
spray most of them with Awlgrip because it will wear a little longer
before needing repair work. If you're spraying, and concerned about a
couple sags or bugs, it's nice to be able to wet sand and compound
them out with the AwlCraft (just do it early, the longer the stuff
cures the harder it gets to the point where it is very difficult to
work down any thick runs or sags) If sprayed in 65deg with a full
dose of X98 accelerator next day is often a good time to atleast
wetsand and do the initial compound. Machine polish (and if a dark
color superfine polish) can be done after it has cured a few more
days, but sooner is generally easier. Awlcraft will take more
frequent washing with Awlwash & awlcare than Awlgrip, and Awlcraft may
benefit from waxing also, but it is much much harder than gelcoat
which keeps it looking good longer, and it will hold a stronger shine
with that hard surface.

Re-Gelcoating is also an option. It is typically far more labor
intensive, which become more daunting on larger areas. Gelcoating
outside of a mold can also be tricky to get a thorough cure, without
excessive shirnkage, or other problems. It is best applied in a mold
so the heat generated by the curing main layup gives it a full cure.
It can be done, but can also show problems in just a year or two if
undercured and soft, shrunk and prone to crazing, cracking, or
lifting, applied over surfaces other than acetone softened styrene
based resin systems, or applied to thick, or thinned with products not
specifically intended for that such as Duratec. Gelcoat also requires
significant sanding and compounding to look good after application due
to heavy orange peel when not applied to a molded surface.

If you're looking at rolling/brushing, you're limited to Awlgrip,
gelcoat, or some other products. Interlux Perfection is actually
similar to awlgrip products (both are owned by Akzo Noble) but
designed for easier application by DIY and repair yards. With any
Linear PolyUrethane (LPU) paint like awlgrip, awlcraft, bluewater,
sterling, imron, and others it is very important to apply a good epoxy
primer (such as Awlgirp 545) and maintain an extreme level of
cleanliness when applying the LPU. LPU bonds well to epoxy, which
helps it last much longer than spraying over any other surface. Make
sure you change rags often when wiping down with solvent just before
tacking and spraying LPU. Also make sure the rags are totally clean.
If they have a perfume or odor don't bother trying to use them. Also
give the surface plenty of time for ALL the solvent to flash off, and
then tack down gently with Awlgrip Tack Cloths (don't use any other
brand or type, or an incompatible residue will make it fisheye like
someone shot the boat with buckshot). Also, accelerators are a great
additive, but don't bother attempting to use Crater-X, it'll cause
more problems than do good without precise handling like mixing in a
paint shaker for 20 min, allowing exactly 30 mins of cool-down
afterward, and spraying immediately after that.

Russell Mead
Rus...@CascadeYachtWorks.com
Cascade Yacht Works, LLC

Mail
89643 Ocean Dr
Warrenton, OR 97146

Shop/Freight/UPS
Cascade Yacht Works, LLC
485 SE 5th St
Warrenton, OR 97146

[Kristen Posey Mead, Cascade Yacht Works]

More paint geekery from Russell, in reply to a question regarding the
feasability of rolling from Thor below. I'll second the overspray
issue, but I work at a shipyard for a living so wasn't surprised. And
I'd 2nd the Crater-X comment, because it's been Quite Painful to pay
for, including lost overhead and manhours, and painful to watch Russ
sand and sand and sand and sand...
--------------------------------
Another note is to watch application temperatures. Awlgrip/Awlcraft
2000 reduction solvents are formulated for specific application
temperatures. Spraying up in temperatures below 60F will cause a
little solvent pop here and there. 55F is needed to get a good hard
cure. I'd suggest 55 as a minimum for the first few days of cure so
it makes it through stage 1 (of the 3 cure stages) pretty quickly and
while the converter/catalyst is still very active.

I have brushed Awlcraft, catalyzed with AwlGrips's #2 spray converter
in very thin coats with what appear to be decent results, but longer
term performance has yet to be seen. I haven't read the article yet
but it's on the near future list. I know many people out there have
obtained equal to if not better than spray results using the roll and
tip method. Where it becomes more challenging is around
superstructures and house sides where hardware and shape features
prevent easy and consistent rolling and smoothing (which can make
spray far faster and cleaner in such areas).

Dont' underestimate the tenacious abilities of LPU paint overspray.
My keyboard and coffee grinder both suffer from light misting of Cloud
White AwlCraft, even though located behind the office doors in the
side of the shop with multiple exhaust fans running. I'd also
recommend printing and reading the product applications sheets from
AwlGrip's website for any and all components of their coating systems
you plan to use. If something seems vague don't assume what it means
though. I assumed "mix well under mechanical agitation" mean using a
swirl cage type mixer with a drill for 10 minutes qualified, but I was
wrong and it cost me $10,000 and 3 repaintings of a house and deck
before finally identifying the source of the problem (I highly
recommend not using Crater-X by the way).

Use the 2-rag method for cleaning the final primer surface before
applying topcoat. As a slight modification I like to dispense the
solvent with a Zep brand spray bottle instead of solvent dampened
cloth, then wipe down with a clean cloth. Saves a cloth and also
keeps from dipping gloves and rag into a holder of solvent, which
inevitably results in gloves melting away and disintegrating halfway
through the job. If the cloth shows discoloration from surface
contamination make sure you go over it again with a new cloth
afterwards (and always use appropriate respiratory and eyeball
protection). It may take several trips over the whole area to get it
done. Whoever said prep work is 90% of a paint job is full of bull,
it's more like 98.5% with topcoats especially high end LPU's.
Prepping a car is easy because it doesn't take much work to go over
the area a 4th or 5th time. With the larger surface areas on boats it
is more work, and is just as, if not more important, in the unclean
areas of boatyards, boatshops, and the marine environment in general.
If a surface has or might have been exposed to silicone (be it
synthetic waxes, silicone caulk, or other sources) you MUST use epoxy
primer such as 545. With thorough cleaning BEFORE sanding, followed
by good cleaning after sanding (tack cloth wipedown not needed before
a primer in most cases) the primer has atleast a good chance of
bridging any problems. If the primer fisheye's the topcoat has zero
chance. Maker sure there is a good smooth layer of primer, then sand
it down with 320 grit (finer grit won't allow effective mechanical
adhesion, coarser grit will print through scratch marks (320 may still
show a few swirl scratch marks but generally not noticeable without a
flashlight and keen eye)). I've found fresh primer (couple days cure
or less, clean environment) can be sanded without any solvent cleaning
beforehand, and only mild solvent wipedown after sanding and dust
removal before tacking and spraying, can work well. Harsh solvents on
fresh primer can mess with epoxy primers and cause problems also. If
you use a rag (clean I hope) and compressed air to clean off sanding
dust, it really helps to use an air filter after the compressor to
reduce surface contamination from compressor oil and condensation. No-
one wants to clean more, so why make it dirtier than it needs to be.
(Kristen Notes: Make sure you've got good filters coming off your air
compressor, and uber-clean hoses. Don't ask.)

If your current AwlGrip job is looking a bit worn, have you used their
wash and protection products? I have little experience with them but
have heard they can really help. If it's not deeply scratches a light
buffing with 3M's superfine machine polish and light blue foam
polishing pad might also bring back a bit of life. Awlgrip separates
into a clearcoat and pigmented under layer when it cures, so there
isn't much room to compound and buff before cutting through the clear
and exposing the pigment which dulls rapidly, which is part of why it
can't be buffed much. It also has a very very very tight temperature
tolerance when buffing. Some paints like Awlcraft have a broader temp
range where compounding/buffing heats the surface and melts it
together filling in scratches and imperfections before reaching the
overheated point where it turns dull and unfriendly. AwlGrip can be
buffed, just very gently and it's basically only using the mechanical
cutting action to knock down the whole surface to the depth of the
scratches, rather than melting it back together and renewing the
surface to an extent like acrylic based LPU's such as Awlcraft 2000
(and I think Imron is another buffable acrylic rather than polyester
based) tend to benefit from. Since Awlcraft is homogeneous when it
cures out there is also more or less the full thickness of the topcoat
to work with instead of the 1 mil or so of clear that's floated to the
top with AwlGrip.

Don't let cleanliness and potential complexities of advanced coating
systems scare you into grabbing a can of brightside or unepoxy because
it sounds easier. An Alwgrip or Awlcraft 2000 job will outglow any 1
part paint, normally show few if any defects from 10 feet away, and
won't have to be redone every couple years.

(Wow Russ... way to sound like a TV commercial. I think what he
really means is to have the boat so clean you could plop your aunt
down and do her lung transplant right there.)

On Jan 3, 6:43 am, "Kristen Posey Mead, Cascade Yacht Works"

> Russ...@CascadeYachtWorks.com

[tom hand]

One thing that concerns me here is that no-one has mentioned the fact that any linear polyurethane is toxic, and that breathing apparatus is needed. I have never seen a professional without a mask, but a lot of DIY boat owners have been getting their highs on it, not even wearing a dust mask. I understand that in Europe, studies found that it can affect sexual performance in a negative way.
Tom Hand
Catspaw N26C #12

[Kristen Posey Mead, Cascade Yacht Works]

Even more from Russell below. And I can 2nd his comments this time on
the outdoor painting. One of the boats we painted in Louisiana was
his Hans Christian. Dew point killed us in a few sections when we
sprayed 2 coats of clear coat. It'll buff out, we just haven't yet.
She's got that work boat look to her and there are more glaring
aesthetic issues to fix, since she was a hurricane Katrina boat. KPM

----------------------------------------------
Imron from my understanding has 2 paint lines, one for the automotive
side and a separate marine line. I've heard they are very different
products but both apply and hold up well. Part of why I think
Awlgrip, Sterling, Bluewater, AlexSeal, and others are more popular
than Imron is availability. Imron doesn't have the distribution
network of many others. Few Marine Chandleries and Marine Supply
houses carry Imron, but they often stock many if not most of the other
brands (Fisheries Supply carries most lines, including Awlgrip with
all the additives and solvents in stock, and mixes standard and custom
colors in their store. They ship all my Awlgrip and it has always
taken 3 days or less). I also don't know they have application
information as readily obtainable such as downloading pdf's from a
website like Awlgrip does.

There is more out there than what info I've collected and learned so
far on applying LPU's. When all goes well it's no problem, but like
the challenges I've run into lately I've been and still am learning
through trial and error and some input from product rep's. A couple
guys from Sherwin Williams have actually provided almost as much
useful info as the Awlgrip lab. Sherwin has recently bought out
several small marine paint formulators to add to their latex, enamel,
multi-component automotive, epoxy sealer/marine/multipurpose products,
antifoulings, and other such useful things they currently carry. From
what I heard their standard marine LPU should already be available,
with their premium line which is supposed to be a buffable acrylic
based LPU on shelves with the new labels in 9 months or so. Their
paints don't have the showroom brochure appeal of Interlux, Petit, and
Awlgrip names but it sounds like their paint distribution network will
allow them to sell similar products for just over half the price. It
is hard to make a major change like moving to a different line of
paint, but with the price and the tech support I've had in the past, I
give them a good chance I'll atleast spray up a couple gallons or
their premium stuff when it's out and see how it goes. I'm also
considering their epoxy barrier coat and vinyl based antifouling for
my current project.

For those wishing to experiment with mixing brands (may work but I
can't particularly recommend) some painters report Sterling's lower
temperature reducer is less likely to experience solvent pop when
mixed with Awlgrip's products instead of using Awlgrip's T0001 reducer
in the mix. I've also heard some catalysists, particularly Awlcat #2
and Sterling's Spray Catalyst, can be used interchangeably if there's
a shortage of one on a rush job. If it doesn't work though no
coatings company will back their product warranty up if any substance
without their label was used in the process.

In the off chance you run into steel or aluminum that needs coating,
and a super high gloss and extensive depth of image aren't major
factors, Ameron/Americoat has a line of primers and topcoats that are
heavily used with industrial and commercial vessel applications.
They're very application tolerant, even the local commercial fishermen
are able to brush and roll it themselves to keep up on seasonal hull
and deck beatings.

Outdoor is a difficult way to paint any boat above the waterline.
I've done it in a the south a few times but sun, excessive surface
temperatures, dew point challenges (LPU turns milky and rough if dew
settles on it while still tacky or very soft), and dust haven't made
it easy. I painted one boat here in a shrinkwrap enclosure which
worked well. I built very simple 2x4 trusses, used 2x6 upright legs
every 4 feet, used plywood for the first 4' from the ground to
stabilize it, and used shrinkwrap over the whole thing. The wood cost
a bit but shrinkwrap was like $350 for the 45'x20'x20' structure with
a couple tanks of propane to run the shrink gun in the cool weather.
I could heat it a little to protect from dew, protect the neighbors
from overspray using furnace filters taped to 20" box fans set up to
exhaust fumes, and built scaffolding right off the 2x6's to work
from. For a small tent pvc pipe glued together and bent in an arch
shaped like some steel carports should also work if not shrunk down
too aggressively.

[Kristen Posey Mead, Cascade Yacht Works]

Tom,

Russell (and his father) both seem to look like they're ready for a
bio-terrorism event, or extras on that movie Outbreak when it's
Spraying Time. No one else (dog or human) is allowed on the shop
floor during painting, and for some time after. He can comment
specifically on safety precautions in total, but I think his biggest
concern is to keep his klutzy wife away from any chemicals he can, and
minimize contact himself. Right now the 2 dogs are plenty, but maybe
sometime we might consider additional noisy poop machines; it seems
like anything and everything can cause cancer or birth defects.

I haven't noted any performance issues. At the same time, I only see
him on the weekends, so my data set is technically somewhat limited,
but I suppose for the good of science we should really consider more
extensive checking into the matter. (I also wonder if the testing was
able to rule out any possible interference from celebrating Happy Hour
before trying for a Happy Ending. ;-) We're talking about sailors
afterall.)

Best,
Kristen

> ...
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[Kristen Posey Mead, Cascade Yacht Works]

Safety Notes from Russell below. You'll have to excuse some of his
commentary, it was very late last night and I suspect was aggravated
about some varnish. I'm drowning at work and can't really edit. This
should at least give y'all a few hints, should you be somewhat in the
dark. If nothing else, try a trip to your local paint store to ask
questions. I'd suggest Sherwin Williams because that's where Russ
sends me and they know by the dog that's with me what it is I've been
sent after.

We don't care to be liable for anything anyone else does, so please
always read the instructions (hard if you're a guy, I know). And MOST
DEFINITELY always hang onto the MSDS sheet. Make a binder for them in
an obnoxious color, make sure The Wife knows about it. Should
anything ever happen to you, have someone hand a copy of it over to
the doctors; it's all well and good if Your Silly Butt thinks the
chemicals in your garage had nothing to do with it, but maybe you
should let the Guy or Gal who spent years and hundreds of thousands of
dollars earning the degrees, losing sleep, and writing the theses make
that decision. (OK, family pet peeve.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

There are lots of details about protective equipment, general idea is
buy it and use it. I've babbled on a bit below, may be useful maybe
not. Always read the paperwork with a product, and keep a copy of the
MSDS sheet around in case there's any medical issue. A rule of thumb
is the more you spend on paint the more you should be spending on
protection. A can of inexpensive latex paint, a dust mask may get you
by. A box of multi-component coating system, get a VOC filtering
respirator. A truck-full of proprietary mil-spec professional only
coating systems guaranteed to cause death on contact store in metal
cans only, get a moon suit with fresh air supply.

PPE (personal protective equipment) is a definite must. Get a pair of
comfortable safety glasses you'll actually wear. (A light wipe of Rain-
X can also help keep paint spray from sticking to the lens.) It says
on the can "For Professional Use" when what it really means is MUST be
used with professional PPE. Put the respirator on before opening any
cans, and don't take it off until you've walked away from the area.
Yeah I know it's clunky and annoying and hot and... The side affects
are more annoying if you don't wear it though. If you wear contacts
you probably know the drill, if not please find out before melting
them to your eyeballs.

With paint that costs $50 a quart, go spend $40 on a basic
respirator. A dust mask blocks some nuisance particles like drywall
dust, it does nothing for VOC's (the smelly and dangerous stuff that
comes out of paints and solvents). You don't have to go out and find
a $150 full face respirator, or a $1,300 fresh air unit. Do get a
unit that includes VOC trapping cartridges plus a prefilter. Many
come in medium and large to better fit different face sizes. The
prefilter will catch lots of general stuff and keep the carbon filled
part working longer. If you can smell or taste the paint adjust your
respirator or replace the cartridges. People think of losing brain
cells when painting, but then doesn't alcohol do the same?
"Reproductive Harm" who wants more kids anyway. But there are other
affects. LPU has caused long term fatigue in some people exposed to
fumes without a respirator. I mean like feeling tired and mopey and
useless for 8 months after exposure for a couple hours once. Eye
twitching, loss of smell and taste, and other nervous disorders have
also been recorded. It may not be as bad as sticking your arm in a
barrel of arsenic but it does a whole lot more than just stick to you
lungs and turn snot funny colors. The $40 respirator won't give you
100% protection but for a DIY project I would go with no less. Also
remember your assistant (if you have one) should get the same level of
protection, they're right there breathing the same air you are. You
might hear about "fit test kits" for respirators. Long term it is
important. For the DIY the cost is prohibitive and using such kits
takes time and reading instructions. Just follow the rule that if you
taste or smell solvents something isn't right, and you need to adjust
or replace something.

Tyvek suits are also important. If you aren't a fan of heatstroke and
are working in high temperatures at least wear long pants and a
lightweight long sleeve shirt. A spray sock over your head is also a
very good idea if you're spraying up any epoxy primer or LPU. They're
like $2 at a paint store. Painted hair doesn't mean instant death,
but paint on your scalp, forehead, and anywhere not covered by the
respirator and safety glasses is not good for any cells in your body.

SANDING - It's not just the dust you need to avoid, hence a dust mask
won't often do it. Many paints and coatings take several months or
longer to more or less fully cure. Awlgrip or Awlcraft at 65 degrees
takes several months to reach the final stage of cure. Many epoxy
laminating resins like MAS, West, and System 3 often take several
weeks (at 77 deg F) to reach the stage where there are very few active
particles in them. When sanding use a vacuum sander or wet sand
whenever possible, and still wear a respirator. It will block dust,
but more importantly capture most of the VOC's and other solvents
which are released from the depths of the coating when the sanding
opens it up. Sanding through the surface is like taking the cap off a
bottle of whiskey, stuff starts to evaporate out that was previously
locked in. With paints it's stuff you don't want to breathe.
Generally spraying paint is the most critical time, but sanding can
also be very dangerous. In particular 545 and other epoxy primers
should be noted. They are often sprayed or rolled on, then sanded
within a couple days before the stuff gets really hard, ie before it's
very cured. Even if you're doing a roll and tip or brush job for
primer and topcoat, you should still own a respirator, and you should
also use it when sanding the primer.

A paint job now days is more than buying a brush, quart of stuff, and
using an old t-shirt to wipe up drips. There's paint, converter,
reducer, cleanup solvents, rags, sand papers/abrasives, masking tape,
masking paper or plastic, clean up supplies, ear plugs, safety
glasses, respirators and cartridges, gloves, other PPE, beer for the
help, personal beer for having to deal with the help's oops's,
brushes, rollers, paint trays, mixing buckets, drill mixer(s), drop
cloths, tack cloths, plus non-consumables like power tools. Spend the
money on protective equipment for yourself, any help, and surrounding
objects like cars and the ground. Trust me you don't want to buy a
neighbors new car's paint job (windy day when the guy shouldn't have
been painting anyway...)

You might not recognize or relate many of the effects LPU's and other
modern coating systems can have on the human body. Avoid having to
wonder about fatigue or permanent brain farts by at least spending a
few $ on protective gear. Would you play football without pads (well
ok so they do in rugby, but I think the cast and splint bills cost
more than pads would)?

[Kristen Posey Mead, Cascade Yacht Works]

Oops, he also sent a link:

They don't cost that much to get at least a basic level of protection

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xhi/R-100653900/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

[Hotmail (Matthews_jon)]

The recent February 2011 Paint review in Practical Sailor
seems to be the best and most detailed answer to your question :

http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_2/features/Topside-Paint-Test_6011-1.html
or
http://www.practical-sailor.com/newspics/PS0211_topside2yr.pdf

They compare prices and multi-year tests of your mentioned paints
and others, and also include comments like :

"One of the reasons why AwlCraft and other slightly softer
and more user-friendly acrylic-based LPU paints are growing
in popularity is that they are much easier to repair and rub
out than polyester-based two-part paints. Their longevity is
good, but not quite that of old standby Awlgrip or new-kid-on-the-block
Alexseal."