Leaking 2" Exhaust Hose Connections

[Ralph Bush]

Hi again all.  The mechanical klutz is back with yet another question.

I finally managed to get my exhaust manifold and heat exchanger reassembled and installed with the help of a local mechanic.  I was discouraged to notice that the end result was leakage of about the same amount as when the whole sordid process began.  However; over several days and a couple of outings the leaks seem to have gone away.  I'm hoping the new gaskets have seated and that that issue is resolved.

While I was at it and everything was apart I figured I may as well replace the section of 2" exhaust hose between the injection elbow and the muffler.  The new hose was a very lose fit at both ends.  No force at all was required to get the hose onto the exhaust elbow or the muffler.  I have double clamped both ends but there is still a slow water leak at both ends of the new hose.  I figure that the wire reinforcing of the hose must be preventing the clamps from exerting enough force on the hose to get a good seal at the ends.  Is there some kind of sealant like a high temperature silicone that I can apply to the joint to stop this leak?

The mechanic put this assembly together from inside the lazaret.  It is really jammed in there, and there is no way that I am going to be able to disassemble it from the quarter berth and my days of squeezing into the engine compartment are done.

Thanks in advance for any advice you may offer.  This job has been going on way to long!

Ralph Bush

1983  N26C  #104

“Hyggelig”

EYC,  Toronto,  ON

[Thor Powell Mariner's Cat V - 26C - North Channel]

Not sure what kind of hose clamps you are using but I think you should be using the solid band kind that tighten with a socket wrench vs the hose clamps that are commonly slotted.

[Joe Valinoti]

This is puzzling. I'd be looking to fix the problem of the hoses not
fitting. Using sealer or stronger clamps is not the answer.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[R N]

Ralph,

If tightening the hose clamps isn't working, then I agree with Joe that you should take it seriously.

As a fellow mechanical klutz, I have some quick suggestions based on my own humbling experiences. 

Before replacing the hose, some quick things to check might be:

• Is the hose fully up the pipe barbs?  If not, since most barbs are slightly conical rather than uniform cylinders, it might seal better if you can move the hose further up.
• Is the hose completely parallel with the pipe?  If not, the hose clamps won't put even pressure on the hose all the way around.
• Are the clamps completely perpendicular to the hose?  If not, that's another thing that will cause the clamps to squeeze the hose unevenly.
• Are the clamps too close to the top of the hose?  Sometimes that can reduce the quality of the seal.
• Are the clamps too low on the hose?  If they are clamping below the barb, clamping partly but not fully on the barb, or clamping on the conical part of the barb rather than on the cylindrical part higher up, they will press the higher part of the hose, but not the lower part, so the area actually comprising the seal won't be nearly as big.

If those don't help, then the most likely problem is that the hose and pipe don't match.  Either one of them isn't the size it was assumed to be, or the parts aren't up to their advertised spec.  If so, replacing is the best bet.

Although I have gotten away with the sealer or stronger clamps approach once or twice, far and away most of the times I've tried it have gotten me a face-full of spray.   So, I wouldn't recommend it for something carrying heated exhaust water.

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

On Saturday, July 18, 2020 at 1:29:25 PM UTC-7, Joe Valinoti wrote:

This is puzzling.  I'd be looking to fix the problem of the hoses not

fitting.  Using sealer or stronger clamps is not the answer....

[Rob Powers]

Hi,

I suggest you check the size of the fittings. The original exhaust from the waterlift to the stern on our 26 #50 was not 2".

rob Powers

Respite 26C #50

Sidney BC

[Joe Valinoti]

I believe that Ralph said a “mechanic” installed those hoses.  I wonder if it was a young and inexperienced mechanic as no experienced one would do that. 

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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From: R N

Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2020 5:56 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

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[Ralph Bush]

Thanks for all the input guys.

Let me go into a bit more background here:  This repair took place as the last job the mechanic was going to do on a Friday afternoon.  It was one of those 30+ degree days and very humid.  He started out by driving to the wrong yacht club (on the other side of Toronto) and had come come back thru Friday afternoon rush hour traffic.  There was obviously some miscommunication between us as when he finally arrived he discovered that the job was much more complicated than he had anticipated.

The very last thing that he did was climb into the cockpit locker to gain access to the back end of the engine and install the exhaust hose.  The new piece was slightly too long; and rather than climb out and cut it; he simply jammed the muffler back in place.  It is sitting at a bit of an angle and I wasn't able to screw it down to the shelf that it sits on, but as he put it "It's so jammed in there that it's never going to move anyway.".  

Having explained all of that I can say with virtual certainty that the new hose is not squarely aligned with either of the end fittings so that is quite possibly the source of my grief.  I am planning on going out to my local hose supplier on Monday and getting some better band clamps.  Perhaps that will solve my problem.  If not  it is back to trying to find a mechanic who has time to help me out as there is no way I can get that hose off without getting into a cockpit locker.

Both of the hose fittings are a straight fit, not tapered.  The hose just dropped into place - no effort or force required.  I measured the original mixing elbow fitting as best I could and it seems to be 1 15/16" with no taper.  Surely that isn't an actual hose size?  It was hard to get an accurate measurement as the fitting was coated in either corrosion, old hose residue, or perhaps some sealant applied at the factory.

Will let the group know if a beefier hose clamp can resolve my problem.

Ralph Bush

1983  N26C  #104

“Hyggelig”

EYC,  Toronto,  ON

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[John Alexander Stewart]

Ralph - I wonder if it is 50mm ID hose. Your measurement comes out at 49.2mm, a mm is about the thickness of a dime.  2" is 50.8mm.

I'm certainly no expert in exhaust hoses; it is a metric engine, and lots have been changed here in North America. Just a thought though.

John A. Stewart

NS26C 046

Kingston ON.

[Ralph Bush]

[R N]

I really feel for you, Ralph. 

There's a lot of things in your account that don't reflect well on your mechanic.

I too have limitations that keep me from going in the lazarettes and the engine compartment.  So, I know well the frustrations of being dependent on others.  

For many years, I had two diesel mechanics who were both really good.  Nowadays, one doesn't return phone calls.  The other flat out told me, "Don't use me, I'm too expensive."   Apparently, there's much more money to be made working the big power mega-yachts.  Not to mention that they're getting older and prefer to work in roomier compartments.

I hope fellow Nonsucher's in the Toronto area can step up and recommend a good mechanic for you.  It might require a separate post to get their attention, though. 

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

On Sunday, July 19, 2020 at 8:06:13 AM UTC-7, Ralph Bush wrote:

Thanks for all the input guys.

Let me go into a bit more background here...The new piece was slightly too long; and rather than climb out and cut it; he simply jammed the muffler back in place.  It is sitting at a bit of an angle and I wasn't able to screw it down to the shelf that it sits on, but as he put it "It's so jammed in there that it's never going to move anyway.".  

Having explained all of that I can say with virtual certainty that the new hose is not squarely aligned with either of the end fittings so that is quite possibly the source of my grief...

[John Alexander Stewart]

Bob;

I really feel for you, Ralph. 

Yes. Well stated.

For many years, I had two diesel mechanics who were both really good.  Nowadays, one doesn't return phone calls.  The other flat out told me, "Don't use me, I'm too expensive."   Apparently, there's much more money to be made working the big power mega-yachts.  Not to mention that they're getting older and prefer to work in roomier compartments.

At my local club, I've heard the same saga. Know any kids mechanically inclined who want to make good $$ and take the winters off in St. Lucia or so? 

I know somebody who put a new engine into his sailboat, and the yard could not find the correct bracket as it was out of stock. The person asked the mechanic to hand-draw it up and email the drawing; within 3 hours of email received, bracket was complete, and fit like a glove. I think this guy may have more work if he wants it.

John A. Stewart

NS26C 046

Kingston On.

[Thor Powell Mariner's Cat V - 26C - North Channel]

I have often thought that hiring a 13 year old for $50 an hour, give them the tools and guide them through the work. Most of this is access and the work very simple in nature.

Unfortunately good marine mechanics are hard to find and bad ones readily available.

[Joe Valinoti]

Roger that, Thor!!

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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-----Original Message-----
From: Thor Powell Mariner's Cat V - 26C - North Channel

Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 1:00 PM
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group
Subject: Re: Leaking 2" Exhaust Hose Connections

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[Tom Schoenhofer North Star 26C#28 Penetang]

Hi Ralph

Sorry to hear about your leak problem(s)

We just made it back from a two week cruise. Had a great time. 

I'm happy to say that even with a a couple long motoring days at high temps and really hot engine compartment my repaired exhaust manifold did not leak a drop. This is with no gaskets just high temp RTV silicone.  

The exhaust nipple to muffler pipe is a 2 inch ID piece of wet exhaust hose 24" long (yours will be a different length). I was forced to use this part because it was the only 2"ID wet exhaust I could get. It fit loosely on the nipple and loose on the muffler but it is clamped and tight and is not going anywhere. 

The old pipe was a lighter piece of hose but also wire inside. It was really stuck to the nipple and muffler and had to be destroyed to get it off but I didn't see any evidence of glue. I think the new hose is way too heavy for this application as it is very stiff and maybe twice as thick as the old one. What I suspect it does is transfer all the vibration of the engine to the hull through the manifold and pipes and hose and muffler because this whole assembly is now very stiff. The muffler is screwed directly down to the hull. This can't be good for the manifold.

I would like to replace this with a piece of stainless flex pipe like you find on every car or shorten the hose and install soft rubber mounts under the muffler. The shortened hose and or rubber mounts under the muffler may help solve your problem.

I'd like to know from the list if anyone else has rubber mounts under the muffler or a flex pipe. It makes sense to me.

I'm thinking something like 4 pieces of rad hose screwed to the muffler mount and then the muffler screwed into the rad hose? I know the 2 cylinder engine is the source of the vibration, it makes the boat shake like a wet dog at some rpms even in neutral. 

Oh yes- I also have problems crawling into this space, 6' and 59 years, but I can manage. The space used to be larger 10 years ago.

Tom

26C #28 W13

North Star

Penetanguishene

[Paul Miller]

Hi Tom,

I added a piece of SS flex in my new exhaust this year and it is great. It reduced the vibration noise and I even think the exhaust noise. There is no vibration transmitted to the muffler. An automotive muffler shop supplied the flex and welded to to the pipe nipples for me.

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay, B.C.

[Tom Schoenhofer North Star 26C#28 Penetang]

Hmm that's nice and neat. Yours is added before the wet injection which probably is much better than after. I will see if I can get one made up like this to replace the 4" nipple.

Tom

[Paul Miller]

Yes, the closer to the manifold it is the less weight is applying vibration forces to the cast aluminium manifold.

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Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper

Cowichan Bay B.C.

[Ralph Bush]

Thanks one last time for all of the replies.

I did manage to solve the problem.  I replaced the four $3 hose clamps with $17 band clamps and reefed them down good and tight with a socket wrench.  The leak has stopped.

I have just finalized the sale of the boat.  Sorry to see her go, but the time has come for me to move on to the "terminal trawler".  Have told the new owner about this site, and I would be very much surprised if you don't see some future question from "Hyggelig".

Once again; thanks to all the guys out there who have helped me on my journey.  I like to think that Hyggelig is a much better boat than when I bought her.

Good luck to you all and keep safe and healthy in these wacky times.

Ralph Bush

1983  N26C  #104

ex-“Hyggelig”

EYC,  Toronto,  ON

[Joe Valinoti]

Sorry to see you go, Ralph.  It's been nice having you with us.  I wish you fair winds and following seas.

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Joe Valinoti

NS30U 221

[David Young]

Bon voyage Ralph. Glad to hear you’ll still be messing about on boats, even if not a Nonsuch.

David Young
Bay Cat, 30U #402
Suttons Bay, MI
USA

[Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene]

This weekend was the first long motor with the new flex pipe in the exhaust. 

It makes a huge difference. Before with the engine running every dish and loose object like an open port or cockpit grate would rattle. Now there is far less vibration. It is much nicer to be in the cockpit now.

The old way had the manifold attached to the water injection elbow with 2 inch pipe and then a heavy 2 inch steel-wire-reinforced rubber hose to the muffler screwed to the hull.

In my install I could not find a way to insert a short flex pipe in the 2 inch pipe without moving the muffler or lowering the elbow too far. So I replaced the rubber hose with the flex pipe. I know it's steel and this will be wet but so is the 40 year old muffler and I wanted to see if this worked. It is easy and quick to change back if needed.

Over the years I replaced the engine mounts, fuel, checked and maintained the engine, put all new sound insulation in, all without making any difference. It is a 2 cyl W13 and because of physics there is no way a 2 cylinder engine can be balanced. Now it is finally free to move and it really jumps around at idle, . Before it always just sat there.

Another great idea from the Nonsuch Group. 

Tom

26C 28

Penetang