Re: Polar diagrams

[0Hotmail (matthews_jon)]

It has been a few years since our last attention to this detail.

 

Question : Does anyone have, or does anyone know how to get

copies of the Hinterhoeller polar diagrams for Nonsuch sailing.

 

They should still be available somewhere, but if we wait too long

they will become difficult to find for future generations of sailors.

 

Thanks,

Jon Matthews EVENSONG 30U Toronto

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Arthur Langley

Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 6:49 PM

To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Subject: Re: Polar diagrams

 

The polars for the various models show that, if the conditions permit in light of one’s ability,

it is best to sail dead down wind with a Nonsuch. Had copies of the various

polars from Ellis but burned them with the house last April.

Steer a course safe for your ability, interest in devoting attention, and the conditions.

Sailing higher and tacking downwind in a Nonsuch is not faster but will likely be

more ‘relaxing’ for most crews in most conditions.  :)

Cheers,

Arthur Langley

 

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Bob Illingworth <mailto:bob.ill...@NTLWORLD.COM> 

To: wlmailhtml:NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 8:19  AM

Subject: Polar diagrams

 

Does anyone have polar diagrams (or indeed are  they available)

for a Nonsuch 30 Ultra?  I have just purchased  SeaPro charting

software which requires these for calculating speed and direction to steer.

Bob Illingworth, Cambridge UK

Nonsuch Luck  30U

 

 

 

 

 

 

[0Hotmail (matthews_jon)]

[Jon Matthews]

[Yakup Icgoren]

I had inquired this some years ago but was not succesfull.  Would love to have one for my boat since I am racing her very actively here.

Yakup Icgoren

Bona Dea

NS 354

Bodrum

[John Newell]

To get the best out of a Nonsuch sailing dead downwind,  you need to have a mainsheet long enough to let the boom go past the 90 degree angle to allow the air flow over the downwind side of the sail, creating a low pressure area rather than having it stalled behind the sail.  This increases the wind speed as it has to travel faster than on the upwind side.  The same principle as a wing creating lift. (See Bernoulli Effect).  Apart from being a more efficient angle of the sail,  it reduces the chance of an unintended gybe. 

 

The advantage of the Nonsuch rig is that it does not constrict the angle of the boom due to old fashioned stays.  A word of warning when racing against stayed boats.  I was running dead downwind on the starboard gybe a couple of years ago to the mark with a 32 footer and a J105 heading in the same direction on the port gybe.  We were on the inside at the mark with the 32 footer in the middle and the J on the outside that did not comprehend that we were on the starboard tack and needed room to gybe without demasting at least one of the other boats, if not both.  The boats were so close that we could walk between all three.   I told them I would have to carry on past the mark until I had sufficient room to gybe safely. The 32 footer could see the problem.  The J was not as understanding or could not see the situation so there was a lot of "noise" coming from that quarter.  What seemed ages later but was probably only 20 odd feet past the mark I felt I had sufficient room to execute a safe gybe.  My boom was a standard one for a 26 but with the heavy s/s Cressman extension which would have been a lethal weapon if let loose on the opposition. 

 

Cheers,

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto

 

----- Original Message -----

[Joe Valinoti]

Yeah, John, "done there been that"! 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221 (1984)
Sea Harbour Yacht Club
Oriental, NC

 

  

 

        ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_~ ~ (\_~ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~                   

[Bob Illingworth]

I have never raced Nonsuch Luck but I have raced more traditionally rigged yachts.  As I understand the rules a yacht on a port tack gives way to a yacht on a starboard tack and for practical purposes this applies even if running. However the identification of a port or starboard tack of another yacht corresponds to her windward side. The windward side is usually the opposite side to the sail, and therefore the boom. However the position of the sail/boom only gives an suggestion of the tack so a Nonsuch running before the wind with the wind coming from the port side and the boom and sail still out on the port side, but of course well forward of the mast, is nevertheless on port tack and therefore must give way to a yacht on starboard tack.

 

Is this interpretation of the rules correct?

 

Bob Illingworth

Nonsuch Luck, 30U Hull #367

Brightlingsea and the North Sea, UK.

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Valinoti
Sent: 08 January 2012 15:10
To: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Polar diagrams - SAILING DEAD DOWNWIND

 

Yeah, John, "done there been that"! 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221 (1984)
Sea Harbour Yacht Club
Oriental, NC

 

  

 

        ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_~ ~ (\_~ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~                   

----- Original Message -----

From: John Newell

To: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 9:39 AM

Subject: Re: Polar diagrams - SAILING DEAD DOWNWIND

 

To get the best out of a Nonsuch sailing dead downwind,  you need to have a mainsheet long enough to let the boom go past the 90 degree angle to allow the air flow over the downwind side of the sail, creating a low pressure area rather than having it stalled behind the sail.  This increases the wind speed as it has to travel faster than on the upwind side.  The same principle as a wing creating lift. (See Bernoulli Effect).  Apart from being a more efficient angle of the sail,  it reduces the chance of an unintended gybe. 

 

The advantage of the Nonsuch rig is that it does not constrict the angle of the boom due to old fashioned stays.  A word of warning when racing against stayed boats.  I was running dead downwind on the starboard gybe a couple of years ago to the mark with a 32 footer and a J105 heading in the same direction on the port gybe.  We were on the inside……..

[John Newell]

Yes

[Joe Valinoti]

That is a great quesion but I'm not sure if "yes" is totally correct.  However, the quote from the US Sailing racing rules definitions - 

"Tack

, Starboard or Port A boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding

to her

windward side"  doesn't seem to address going dead downwind but assumes your boom is on one side or the other which would address which tack you're on.  As in this dic tionary definition - "3. Nautical  a. The position of a vessel relative to the trim of its sails." 

Another definition is - "LEEWARD AND WINDWARD: A boat's leeward side is the side that is or, when she is head to
wind, was away from the wind. However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward
side is the side on which her mainsail lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on
the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the
windward boat. "

Also this from US Sailing's training course - "Starboard verses Port tack:  A starboard verses a port tack is defined as the side opposite the boom.  If the boom is on the port side the boat is determined to be on a starboard tack.  (Navigation rule 12 is determined by the direction of the wind but for the purpose of this rule the windward side is the side opposite the boom).  When sailing "on the lee" with the boom on the port side, the wind is also blowing over the port side of the boat.  However, for the purpose of navigation rule 12 the boat is considered to be on the starboard tack."

If I'm sailing dead down wind, with my boom at 90 deg to my mast and let it go forward and sail by the lee, is that considered a gybe??

[Yakup Icgoren]

I race regularly and tend to agree with Joe's interpretation if the rule.  If we were to go with which side the wind is coming from to determine the tack we are on instead of using where the boom is, there would be chaos on the races course, even with just the sloops.

Yakup Icgoren

Bona Dea

On 8 Oca 2012, at 22:00, "Joe Valinoti" <joes...@gmail.com> wrote:

That is a great quesion but I'm not sure if "yes" is totally correct.  However, the quote from the US Sailing racing rules definitions - 

"Tack, Starboard or Port A boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding

[0Hotmail (matthews_jon)]

 

Although it is a difficult question, which merits inclusion in Perry’s Racing Rules Quizzes,

I believe that Joe is correct in saying that most committees would rule based on boom

position, unless it was a very weird situation.

Cheers,

Jon

[0Hotmail (matthews_jon)]

If we are interested in a definitive answer,

we should ignore Nonsuch, but instead

look into ISAF rulings concerning either

LASER or early WINDSURF olympic classes.

 

These classes sail “by the lee” and, I believe,

use boom position to settle starboard/port issues.

 

I have raced both, but not near the Olympic level.

Cheers,

Jon

[Trish W]

For those of you with Westerbeke 27hp engines, I'm curious
about your average fuel consumption. I know conditions vary
according to speed, efficiency, water conditions, etc. but
as a rule of thumb do you find you are getting about 3 litres
consumption an hour or does that seem high or low?

Appreciate your input!!

Thanks, Trish and Bob
Cat-Sass, NS30U
Port of Sidney, BC (but currently in Mexico!)

"We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust our sails" Anonymous
"No podemos dirigir el viento, pero podemos ajustar nuestras velas" Anónimo

____________________________________________________________
Publish your photos in seconds for FREE
TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4

[Robert & Diane Hindle]

Ola,

We always think we are getting about 2/3 of a gallon an hour, so with your about and our about, seems about the same. 3 litres= .7925 gal

Bob and Diane
PipeDream NSC30 #230

[Joe Valinoti]

Yeah, I don't think that's a bad figure for planning.  Keep it under 2000 RPM or go downwind and it will go up.

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221 (1984)
Sea Harbour Yacht Club
Oriental, NC

 

  

 

        ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_~ ~ (\_~ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~                   

----- Original Message -----

From: Robert & Diane Hindle

To: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com

[Mark Powers]

That would be .66 real (sorry Imperial) gallons. Everyone knows the
U.S. gallon is the Imperial gallons smaller sister.

M&N
La Reina 26C
Burrard Civic Marina
Vancouver B.C.

On Jan 8, 4:19 pm, Robert & Diane Hindle <pipedream...@comcast.net>
wrote:

[Marion Gropen]

For comparison's sake, Meander, with a new Yanmar 55 hp engine is getting about a gallon per hour at a cruising speed of 7 knots. (Hull speed seems to be about 8.5 knots.)

Marion Gropen
Meander, NS36 #41, 1986
North Shore YC
Port Washington, NY

[Thor Powell (Mariner's Cat V - N 26C)]

Here is a link to a Polar for apparently a 26. I have another sheet
with calculations that I assume support the diagram.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8PxEGmn8OclN2E0MDZiOWUtY2Q4Mi00MjkxLWFlZjItYWUwMzcxZjJiNWJk

If you have trouble with the link let me know and I can email you the
file.

Thor

On Jan 7, 3:52 pm, "0Hotmail \(matthews_jon\)"
<matthews_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Re: Polar diagramsIt has been a few years since our last attention to this detail.

>
> Question : Does anyone have, or does anyone know how to get
> copies of the Hinterhoeller polar diagrams for Nonsuch sailing.
>
> They should still be available somewhere, but if we wait too long
> they will become difficult to find for future generations of sailors.
>
> Thanks,
> Jon Matthews EVENSONG 30U Toronto
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Arthur Langley
> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 6:49 PM
> To: NONSUC...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> Subject: Re: Polar diagrams
>
> The polars for the various models show that, if the conditions permit in light of one’s ability,
> it is best to sail dead down wind with a Nonsuch. Had copies of the various
> polars from Ellis but burned them with the house last April.
> Steer a course safe for your ability, interest in devoting attention, and the conditions.
> Sailing higher and tacking downwind in a Nonsuch is not faster but will likely be
> more ‘relaxing’ for most crews in most conditions.  :)
> Cheers,
> Arthur Langley
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>

[Peter Grabow]

Hi Trish and Bob,

I have the Westerbeke 27A in my 30U... this past season my consumption
rate was between .43 and .47 US Gals/hour on each tank throughout the
season. This is somewhat higher than I was getting during previous
seasons (usually .34 to .37 gals/hour) but I believe this was probably
due to running the engine longer and harder, against the currents more
often, and increased use of my SeaFrost refrigeration unit which is
engine driven. When on "long distance" cruises, I would cruise at
roughly 2200 rpm. I have a 3 blade, 16 inch diameter, Kiwi Feathering
Prop (I will probably increase the pitch of the blades this coming
season to get a little more top-end speed, which will certainly
increase my fuel consumption a little more...). My normal water
conditions would probably be considered "choppy" by most, due to the
large amount of ferry traffic, and other boat traffic, to which we are
constantly subjected here in NY Harbor.

My owners manual says "approximate fuel consumption - 2/3 Gal/hour
(US) - 2.5L/hour".

I always calculate consumption at 2/3 gals/hour to insure I don't run
the tank dry...

Peter Grabow
S/V CAKEWALK III 30U 430 1987
NY, NY

[Allen Perrins]

Hi

And how many "stones" does it weigh ? :>)

Al

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Powers" <r...@shaw.ca>
To: "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group"
<INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: Average fuel consumption

That would be .66 real (sorry Imperial) gallons. Everyone knows the
U.S. gallon is the Imperial gallons smaller sister.

.

[John Newell]

A stone is not a fixed weight but depends on the commodity- 14 lbs for
people, meat or fish 8lbs, cheese 16 lbs etc. (the concise Oxford
Dictionary) It is not a measure for fluids.

[mark fagelman, MD]

Mark Ellis may have these.

Mark Fagelman

N-33 PUFF

[Greg Silver]

Hi  Thor

Thanks for posting this. I downloaded it, but the resolution of this file is very low and almost unreadable.

If you have a better copy to email I would really appreciate receiving it.

Allan Shaw still has Chanterelle, in Halifax and he might have this 23 yr old document still....

Happy new year all,

Greg Silver

Misty Cat

N26C #121

St. Peter's, Cape Breton

• "Thor Powell (Mariner's Cat V - N 26C)" <thor....@gmail.com> Jan 10 09:22AM -0800  

• 
  
  Here is a link to a Polar for apparently a 26. I have another sheet
  with calculations that I assume support the diagram.
   
• https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8PxEGmn8OclN2E0MDZiOWUtY2Q4Mi00MjkxLWFlZjItYWUwMzcxZjJiNWJk
   
  If you have trouble with the link let me know and I can email you the
  file.
   
• Thor
   

-- 

Greg Silver Graphic Design

Gregory Silver, B Des, CGD, FGDC 

PO Box 178

St. Peter's, Nova Scotia

Canada B0E  3B0

Office 902 535 3990

Cel 902 631 5050

gr...@gregsilver.ca

[Kate Herman]

Hi all:

I also find the download hard to read (better printed than on screen
though). but more important I'd love an explanation of how to read
this thing - what exactly is it telling me?

thanks for any education you can provide to this nonsuch newbie!

Kate Herman
Sea Rose
N26C #134
Groton Long Point, CT

[0Hotmail (matthews_jon)]

I believe the reason for the low quality

is that it is a copy of an old FAX which

were very low quality at that time.

 

Polar diagrams in general are

a type of mathematical diagram

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_coordinate_system

which almost everyone has trouble

understanding (I once taught math).

 

But sail boat polar are a little simpler

http://www.oppedijk.com/zeilen/create-polar-diagram 

and are a visual representation of

the boat speed vs angle to the wind

of your boat at a certain wind speed.

 

If you are lucky there will be a few lines

showing the relationship for each of 

2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 knots of wind.

 

The quick attachment here shows that

a Nonsuch 26 in 8 knots of wind moves

 

wind angle         boat speed

40                       4.1

90                       4.3

180                      3.5 

 

This assumes flat water, etc.

 

I am not sure the diagram is correct.

 

Cheers,

Jon Matthews

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Kate Herman

Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 12:43 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

[FAITH TIPPETT]

Dear Bob,

This "which side the boom is" is a tricky question. Good interpretation any way.

Just to let you know, David and I have moved to West Mersea.  Our new address is:-  Nonsuch Cottage, 16 City Road, West Mersea, Essex.  CO5 8NE Telephone No: 01206 386 802

We hope to be afloat this year and very mcuh look forward to meeting up with you sometime. Do let us know if you think of coming into Mersea.

Kind regards,

Faith and David

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob Illingworth

To: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 6:38 PM

Subject: Racing & the starboard tack

[John Newell]

Hello Bob,

 

I just bought the January issue of Yachting Monthly and was delighted to see an article on Brightlingsea, your new home port, with Nonsuch Luck featured in the foreground.  She looks great with her new mast gleaming.  Dick Durham must have a soft spot for Nonsuches since there only can be about three in the UK with one berthed on the Crinan Canal.

 

My e-mail of January 8th dealt with sailing dead downwind and the advantage of allowing the boom go past 90 degrees.  There would be no advantage to keeping the boom on the starboard gybe if the wind had shifted from dead aft to the port side even if it were possible with a long enough mainsheet.  One would get a better airflow by gybing.  There is also the matter of the strain on the mast block of the choker and hanger lines when the boom is allowed to go too far forward, not to mention excessive choker pennant wear. Another issue (assuming the the mainsheet is long enough) would be that at a critical point the sheet would not be able to keep the boom in position and it would end up over the bow necessitating one to head up to windward to regain control of the boom.  I think Bill Gate's square rigged Maltese Falcon sets the angle of the yards at some 30 degrees off 90 degrees when running before the wind to be at its most efficient.

 

Nice to see how Brightlingsea is today.  Not quite as it was in the mid 1940s when most of the smacks were working hard and often looking rather tired.

 

Cheers,

 

John

 

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto 

To get the best out of a Nonsuch sailing dead downwind,  you need to have a mainsheet long enough to let the boom go past the 90 degree angle to allow the air flow over the downwind side of the sail, creating a low pressure area rather than having it stalled behind the sail.  This increases the wind speed as it has to travel faster than on the upwind side.  The same principle as a wing creating lift. (See Bernoulli Effect).  Apart from being a more efficient angle of the sail,  it reduces the chance of an unintended gybe........................... 

 

 

[Bob]

Faith,

Thanks for letting me know your new address; as soon as the weather warms up a bit I will try and make it across to Mersea Island, it doesn’t seem that far on the chart…

 

[Edward & Chris]

On 07/01/2012 4:52 PM, 0Hotmail (matthews_jon) wrote:

It has been a few years since our last attention to this detail.

 

Question : Does anyone have, or does anyone know how to get

copies of the Hinterhoeller polar diagrams for Nonsuch sailing.

 

They should still be available somewhere, but if we wait too long

they will become difficult to find for future generations of sailors.

 

Thanks,

Jon Matthews EVENSONG 30U Toronto

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Arthur Langley

Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 6:49 PM

To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Subject: Re: Polar diagrams

 

The polars for the various models show that, if the conditions permit in light of one’s ability,

it is best to sail dead down wind with a Nonsuch. Had copies of the various

polars from Ellis but burned them with the house last April.

Steer a course safe for your ability, interest in devoting attention, and the conditions.

Sailing higher and tacking downwind in a Nonsuch is not faster but will likely be

more ‘relaxing’ for most crews in most conditions.  :)

Cheers,

Arthur Langley

 

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Bob Illingworth <mailto:bob.ill...@NTLWORLD.COM> 

To: wlmailhtml:NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 8:19  AM

Subject: Polar diagrams

 

Does anyone have polar diagrams (or indeed are  they available)

for a Nonsuch 30 Ultra?  I have just purchased  SeaPro charting

software which requires these for calculating speed and direction to steer.

Bob Illingworth, Cambridge UK

Nonsuch Luck  30U

 

 come home and I'll show you just how p-------- I am!

 

 

 

 

[ed ‹(•¿•)›]

Why would anyone want to sail that far North?

[matthewsjon66]

I am told the attached is a polar for a Nonsuch 26

 

From: Edward & Chris

Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 2:52 PM

[bob jenkins]

I am not familiar with the reading of a Polar Diagram . Would someone interpret how the data is compiled and then how to use it for sailing.
Thanks Bob jenkins Good News 30U  #323
aurora on

---

From: matthe...@hotmail.com

To: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Polar diagrams

Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 16:25:37 -0400

[Douglas Y. Caldwell]

Hello All,

I have the following book;

 

Ross, Wallace, with Chapman, Carl

SAIL POWER

The Complete Guide to Sails and Sail Handling

 

Alfred A. Knopf    New York   first edition 1975

ISBN 0-394-47151-2

 

This book has quite a bit of stuff about Polar Diagrams. I have no idea about later editions or their availability. Presumably the ‘science/art’ may have changed in 37 years. Best of luck in finding one. Aside from copyright considerations, there is too much to photocopy.

 

Doug.

[Jon Matthews]

You could look at

 

http://www.sailingworld.com/experts/get-your-performance-on-target 

 

or

 

http://www.oppedijk.com/zeilen/create-polar-diagram 

 

 

 

From: bob jenkins

Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 5:17 PM

To: Nonsuch Discussion group

Subject: RE: Polar diagrams

 

[Al Maclatchy]

Most useful and interesting. I own a shoal draft Nonsuch 26, would you have a diagram to compare the two versions?
Allan Maclatchy N26C Swale Ottawa Canada.