NS36 Rigging questions

[Bob Gehrman]

Hello Everyone!

I'm in the middle of running the rigging on my NS36 and came up with a few things that are 'missing' on the boat. The running rigging is very contradictory to how my NS30 is rigged and/or makes sense to me.

1) The topping lift does not have a cheek block on the boom. I'm not sure how that was even rigged without it, but I'm looking for a spec on that block so I can add one.

2) The sail track stop is missing. I'm looking for a spec to replace that.

Other interesting features: 

• There are no cleats on the deck. Only 4 rope clutches.
• All of the running rigging is on the starboard side: (2) halyards, the choker, and one reef outhaul and downhaul. There was only 1 reef on the sail.
• I still haven't figured out how the sail was raised with this setup - there's no fairlead running to the electric mainsheet winch without running across the cockpit.
• The mainsheet block at the center of the stern has no becket. So did the mainsheet run to the boom as a 1:1 purchase? No wonder you would need an electric winch!
  

Things I am adding:

• Halyard winch - Barient 27 ST on starboard side (I plan on using a Winch Rite for raising the sail)
• 2 cleats on starboard side - (1) for halyard & (1) for reef outhauls
• Downhaul & Topping lift winch - Barient 17 (mounted port side)
• Clutch on the port side for the topping lift
• 2 cleats on the port side for the downhauls and topping lift
• Deck organizers on port side for new lines
• Main sheet block with becket at stern for a 2:1 purchase
• Main sheet cam cleat (currently jammed up against the corner turning block)

Am I missing anything?

Thanks for any input and pictures of your setup!

Bob Gehrman

NS36 #52 “Fortunate”

East Greenwich, Rhode Island

[Don Crossley]

Hi Bob,
You could add some sort of a padeye next (fwd/aft) to the mainsheet deck block. Then you don't need a block with a becket. Probably stronger too. I know I've seen a photo of this arrangement on the INA forum.

I delivered and raced on a 46 ft boat, former Admiral's Cup winner, that had only rope clutches and winches, no cleats. We used a special winch hitch to secure the lines around the winch, didn't need a cleat.

Don

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[Brian Godfrey]

   I have a 33, not a 36, but I think I might be able to help a little. 

1. My topping lift doesn't have a cheek block.  The line goes forward from a winch and clutch on the cabintop, turns upward at the fairlead collar, and goes straight up into the wishbone.  It works fine.

2. The sail track stop might not be missing. It just looks weird.  I stared at mine for a week or so before we put the mast up and then the rigger who was helping me grabbed it and used it.
   I just squeezed the camera in and took the best photo I could get of it and I'll attach it here.  Basically, it kind of resembles a very small rectangular stainless steel box with a pin through it.

   No cleats sounds odd, but that's all I can say about it.

   All running rigging to starboard sounds odd, too.   Seems like you'd have a lot of crossing over near the mast.

   Is the PO still available?  If so, maybe you should ask him about some of these things.

   I just ran out and took a video showing how my sheet is routed.  Maybe it will help.  It's strenuous to haul in close unless I ease up into the wind a little (buncha old folks here) but it can be done without an electric winch (or heart attack.)
   Here's the video:  <https://youtu.be/vjgIFug19jc?si=OR8MfJxEYCvzK7Rb>
   Yeah, it needs a wash. And if anyone sees anything that I should be worried about, please say so.  :-)

   Good luck,

-- Brian Godfrey

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Bob,

Three things I can offer up, for what they're worth.

First, I'm attaching a document I got from Garhauer in 2021 when we put up their recommended block substitutions for the N26, and N30s on the nonsuch.org website.  I've had this document with the equivalent recommendations for N36s all along  -- but I never posted it on the website because I couldn't find an N36 owner to review and validate it.  (The ones on the website for 26s and 30s were reviewed by owners who verified that they agreed with the recommendations.)  So, take it with that disclaimer.

Second, if you haven't already, you might want to check the Nonsuch rig diagram.  I don't know how to point you to it on a paper copy, but it's page 27 out of 110 on the electronic version of the N36 manual on the INA website.

Third, you might consider using floating turning blocks lashed onto the boom rather than drilling holes for cheek blocks for a topping lift.  Yours was not the only one rigged without multipart blocks -- I often sail on Phil LeVine's N36, which did not have it until he re-rigged.  A block lashed to the wishbone gives you a lot more flexibility for how you set it up.

-- Bob
   Me Gusta
   Nonsuch e26U #233
   Looking forward to seeing folks in Toronto:
        https://nonsuch.org/2024-INA-International-Rendezvous-Status

[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Bob, 

Would you happen to have a unverified sheet for the N33 with Garhauer part #s?

Some of the blocks on Soave are nearing end-of-life and I've been thinking Garhauer as a reasonable choice for replacements.  

Also (a more general question), since others are thinking about running rigging,  anyone using dyneema where we currently see wear of cast aluminum that engages stainless  shackles?  I've been looking at some the creative uses of dyneema on a friends J121 and thinking of a few spots where dyneema loops might make sense on Soave...  clew/wishbone was recently discussed and I'm also mast collar/turning blocks.

Thanks,

Rob Cohen

s/v SOAVE

NS33 #009

Westport, CT

[Bob Gehrman]

Bob N - This is IMMENSELY helpful! And the blocks are not ridiculously expensive! THANK YOU!

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[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Hey Bob -

You are quite correct here - lotsa mysteries and the P/O must have had that heart attack trying to accomplish all of the basic NONSUCH tasks with one electric winch and 4 rope clutches (and that's all ...... quoting Bugs Bunny).

My 2 cents: Don't go the the "textbook" routing, etc. of the toppling lift. It's damn heavy. Use high school physics. Don't drill holes in the boom. Do not run the topping lift line through a (too small) cheek block and "all the way along the boom", picking up a shedload of needless friction. You want to have a (minimum) 4:1 mechanical advantage using 2 fiddle blocks from the topping lift cable to the boom. The line should then go through a nice reasonable size FLOATING block attached to a piece of Dyneema attached to the inside end of the boom (NO friction). It the distance from the end of the boom to the block could be around a foot. It should then travel all the way to your double-block at the front of the boom by going through a few slightly smaller blocks (I had 2 on my little NS 22 - obviously you'll need more - use the existing padeyes as "spacers" and tie the blocks around the boom, going through the padeyes (not for strength, just to keep the blocks where you want them on the boom). Bottom line - NO padeyes, nothing rubbing against the boom, total flexibility and an amazing (seriously) reduction in friction. You may be able to raise and lower your topping lift with one arm, let alone throwing it on a winch. 

And ..... split the load on the stern of your boat from the mainsheet. Don't run a block with a becket in order to gain a 2:1 mechanical advantage. Solidly attach an old block to the stern deck (I forget what it's called .... ) and tie your mainsheet to it. Then run it to the boom and BACK to the original block. You've now split the load on the back of the boat. The boat will love you for this. Your shoulders will love you for eliminating all of that friction in the topping lift. 

I'll add a few photos of my arrangement.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Bob Gehrman]

I just ordered all 10 new block variations that I needed from Garhauer for $600. I've spent hours in marine salvage shops trying to find what I needed and have a ramshackle hodgepodge of blocks that aren't exactly right. PS they are having a 15% off sale through tomorrow.

Thanks Bob N!

That list is great but there are a few numbers that were different from what I was expecting. I'll post the layout of what I've assembled.

Bob Gehrman

[Brian Godfrey]

Hi Bob,
   My topping lift actually goes into a hole on the bottom of the forward end of the wishbone on the starboard side. It turns around a block then runs through the inside of the tube before turning on another block and exiting. It exits right next to the tackle. I can get you a photo or video of that if you need it.
   But I know that many of the uber-Nonsuchers here have claimed that running the line inside of the boom causes too much drag and they run it on the outside of the tube.  I don't fuss with it much while sailing (don't tell!) and it's on a winch, so I'm fine with it as-is.
   If I were in your shoes I think I'd use which ever way gets me on the water first and plan changes while I was out there sailing.

   I have no other cleat for the sheet. The self-tailer is essentially a really long jam cleat turned into a circle.  So it holds well and is gentle on the line.  With a few turns on the winch (four if the sail is generating lots of power) I can hold the sheet in my hand so it really isn't stressing the self-tailer at all.  It is also very handy, making sheet handling so easy that I can do it while steering without stress or theatrics even on a port tack when I actually have to get up off my butt to reach it. 
   By the way, it has been suggested that starting the sheet from a separate padeye rather than the becket on the block would spread the stress over a greater area of that little aft deck. Mine is not like that, as you can see in the video, but my gelcoat has a lot of stress cracks around the block. So it seems like an excellent idea and is on my list. If your block doesn't have a becket then you are already half way to a superior solution!  Look around and maybe you are already fully setup.

Brian Godfrey
Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego

On May 30, 2024 12:48:22 PM UTC, Bob Gehrman <b...@gehrman.net> wrote:
>Hi Brian - Thanks for the info. For the topping lift, once it is up on the
>wishbone at the mast it has to go to the aft end of the wishbone to get to
>the 3:1 tackle where it terminates on a block. How does your topping lift
>get to that?
>
>Also, curious if you have a jam cleat of any kind for the main sheet or do
>you just use the winch self-tailor to hold it?
>
>Bob Gehrman
>
>On Wed, May 29, 2024 at 11:50 PM Brian Godfrey <br...@wildbirdshop.com>
>wrote:

>>>    - There are no cleats on the deck. Only 4 rope clutches.
>>>    - All of the running rigging is on the starboard side: (2) halyards,

>>>    the choker, and one reef outhaul and downhaul. There was only 1 reef on the
>>>    sail.

>>>    - I still haven't figured out how the sail was raised with this setup

>>>    - there's no fairlead running to the electric mainsheet winch without
>>>    running across the cockpit.

>>>    - The mainsheet block at the center of the stern has no becket. So

>>>    did the mainsheet run to the boom as a 1:1 purchase? No wonder you would
>>>    need an electric winch!
>>>
>>> Things I am adding:
>>>

>>>    - Halyard winch - Barient 27 ST on starboard side (I plan on using a

>>>    Winch Rite for raising the sail)

>>>    - 2 cleats on starboard side - (1) for halyard & (1) for reef outhauls
>>>    - Downhaul & Topping lift winch - Barient 17 (mounted port side)
>>>    - Clutch on the port side for the topping lift
>>>    - 2 cleats on the port side for the downhauls and topping lift
>>>    - Deck organizers on port side for new lines
>>>    - Main sheet block with becket at stern for a 2:1 purchase
>>>    - Main sheet cam cleat (currently jammed up against the corner

>>>    turning block)
>>>
>>>
>>> Am I missing anything?
>>>
>>> Thanks for any input and pictures of your setup!
>>>
>>> Bob Gehrman
>>> NS36 #52 “Fortunate”
>>> East Greenwich, Rhode Island
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

>>> -- Brian Godfrey
>>

-- Brian Godfrey

-- Brian Godfrey

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Responding to Rob Cohen's question about a Garhauer block list for the N33s, sorry, no.   Some of the models' manuals don't contain block lists, so I had nothing to send Garhauer for them to mark up.  The N33 is one such model.  

What we did in the New Nonsuch Owners Quick Guide, also available on www.Nonsuch.org under MEMBERS - MANUALS, was recommend that those boats use the block list from the next size up boat.  I've since verified with Mike Quill that this is the best that can be done under the circumstances.

-- Bob
   Me Gusta
   Nonsuch e26U #233
   Looking forward to seeing folks in Toronto:
        https://nonsuch.org/2024-INA-International-Rendezvous-Status

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Responding to Brian Godfrey's comparison of N33 to N36, I'm guessing that the lines running inside the boom stem from the N33 being a newer model and I think this came with the switchover to carbon fiber.  But this is just a guess.  I believe a few people have retrofitted their aluminum booms to work that way, as well.

If you're into fine-tuning, there are arguably circumstances where playing with the topping lift under sail might be useful and fun.  But I don't think those circumstances arise in the conditions you and I encounter in Southern California, so I'll proudly stand with you in stating that I don't adjust when sailing.  I do adjust it when raising and lowering the sail.  It's partly out of belief that it helps reduce friction on the mast track slides, but mainly to have the boom higher and more out of the way when not under sail.

The only problems with using a winch self-tailer as the only cleat as you describe might be that you can't use the winch for anything else and you have to figure out what to do with the line when you need to service the winch.

I've seen the forces on a N36 mainsheet break a pretty robust looking snap shackle, so my two suggestions about  using a separate padeye rather than a becketed block on the mainsheet are: (1) make sure there's a very solid backing plate underneath; and, (2) attach the mainsheet to the padeye with very solid hardware that has a specified breaking strength in line with those for the sheets and blocks.  With those things done, there's a lot to be said for distributing the forces.

-- Bob
   Me Gusta
   Nonsuch e26U #233
   Looking forward to seeing folks in Toronto:
        https://nonsuch.org/2024-INA-International-Rendezvous-Status

[Brian Godfrey]

   Actually, my boom is aluminum.  It would be nice it it was carbon fiber.  But my boat was actually completed after the factory closed, so who knows what oddities it might have. 

   Whew!  I'm glad I'm not in trouble for not fiddling with the topping lift while sailing.  I was worried that there might be something I was missing.

   I don't need to use the sheet winch for anything else.  And when I service the winch I just throw the line on the seat.  If I have a problem with the winch while sailing, I'll just drop the sail and deal with it in the slip.

   I took a video of the arrangement on my cabintop.  Maybe it will be helpful in this conversation or maybe not.  The 36 only has about 10% more sail area than the 33, so it seems like they would be fairly comparable.  If not, well at least I've got a record for insurance purposes.  :-)
   It is here:  <https://youtu.be/flEcnasHs6w?si=5VCioyLkpbHiTMcv>
   And as usual, if anyone sees something wrong, I hope you'll let me know.

Brian Godfrey
Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego

-- Brian Godfrey

[Brian Godfrey]

   You know, Ernie, we actually have a four DVD set of Looney Tunes cartoons and we play one before each movie that we stream (just to keep grounded) and I don't recall Bugs Bunny ever saying anything about Nonsuch tasks...

Brian

-- Brian Godfrey

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Don't know about Looney Tunes, Brian, but if you could get Pinocchio on board, having him as crew would solve your problem of how to hit the electric winch button and still be able to see what the sail's doing.   

If you need his nose longer, just ask him to keep telling you that he's sailed in Florida and never run aground until it's the length needed for him to poke the button without getting under the dodger.

Since Pinocchio's a Disney character, I just hope they don't sue me for mentioning him without paying them a license fee first.

-- Bob
   Me Gusta
   Nonsuch e26U #233
   Looking forward to seeing folks in Toronto:
        https://nonsuch.org/2024-INA-International-Rendezvous-Status

[Brian Godfrey]

And here I thought a pinnocchio hook was just an adjustable length pelican hook.

-- Brian Godfrey

[bobge...@gmail.com]

UPDATE:

Rigging is finished. Shake down sail will be July 4th.

Note to future riggers: Check the forecast BEFORE drilling all the holes and not having the screws and nuts in hand to insert and seal. Duct tape does not seal out water from thunderstorms!

Bob Gehrman

NS36 #52 "Fortunate"

Greenwich Bay, Rhode Island

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

And ...... NEVER stick duct tape or "gaffer tape" (or masking tape, for more than a few hours) on your deck or hull. They ALL leave a residue that can be a bugger to get off.

Ernie A. in Toronto