Westerbeke 21 impeller - location, location, location

[Bath Water]

A cruel joke on the fat fingered.

While technically the replacement of the impeller to start a new season is straightforward, access to it is not. I'm starting to believe the rumours that Westie engines are red to hide the gallons of knuckle blood that coats them over time.

For those of you with a 26C, you know this view. Accessed though an impossibly small opening in the port quarter-berth. You get a teasing view of the pump seated facing what I think is the starter 1" away. This juxtaposition of course thwarts the position of any tool to loosen those simple slot head screws.

For the learned ones who have tackled this before. Whats the right approach?

• Remove the hose clamps and water pipes to get in there?
• Is there a special tool?
• Please tell me I can use a large sledgehammer and blow torch (I need payback for my bandaged fingers)

Mike and Ashley Read

NS 26C #120 Nauti Girl

Bath, Ont.

[Paul Miller]

I have a W33 but my access isn’t much better. I decided to remove the screws and replace them with loctited in studs (actually just long screws with the heads cut off at the appropriate length). The advantages are:

1) you are now dealing with nuts instead of slot head screws

2) you can easily locate the socket or wrench on the nut

3) you can do it all with one hand

4) after replacing the impeller you can slip a new paper gasket on with one hand and it will stay there while you go back for the cover

5) it’s easier to locate the nuts on the studs than find the screw holes, especially the first one

6) it’s easier to tighten them with a socket or wrench

Other than that it’s about the same.  :-)

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay, B.C.

[tedsdad]

Alas, you're likely to be better off removing the whole water pump, and working on it in the open.

You still have to survive the trials that go with removing the pump, i.e. removing the 4 nuts and washers isn't easy. Spray those nuts liberally with penetrant to make it less likely you twist out their studs from the block, too. But, you should be able to screw such a stud back in.

BTW, disconnect batteries beforehand,  since it's extremely easy to short out to the starter with any metal tool you are using!!!

Best of luck. Take heart in the fact that if a job can't go on forever, it will end.

Ed Cook

Chat-eau, N26c #173

Middle River,  MD

Sent from my Galaxy

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[Joe Weinbrecht]

Great photos, this poor location explained why my previous owner allowed most of the impeller to clog the heat exchanger. I have subsequently had the heat exchanger rebuilt and installed a new raw water pump. They were amazed that I never had an overheat experience.

At my age, it is now one of the increasing # of "yard jobs"  which I have resigned myself to reducing the amount of money available for Scotch.

Joe

NS26C #156

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[Joe Valinoti]

Good suggestions, Paul about the screws.  I would remove the hoses by cutting them off (they’re probably original anyway), then the pipes and then the pump.  As a retired mechanic, I’ve found that it’s sometimes easier in the long run to remove more pieces for access then struggle with too little room to work.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

 

From: Bath Water

Sent: Friday, May 6, 2022 9:47 AM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Westerbeke 21 impeller - location, location, location

 

[Bath Water]

O.K.,

I'm going to strip off all of those hose clamps and pipes to create a temporary scrap heap in the cockpit.

Then go after the "simple screws"with a "low profile" 90 degree screw driver.

I'll shield the starter with a place-mat to avoid the 4th of July fireworks with the starter.

I'll conservatively anoint the screw heads with WD-40 if I can get it in there.

I'd like to replace the screws with knurled headed thumbscrews. Does anyone know the thread and depth before I try and order them ahead of time?

If I can migrate to a "tool-less" solution, I might be encouraged to engage in this as an annual event.

Any other useful tips like, " Oh yeah, you may want to shut off the sea-cock before it becomes the "Poseidon Adventure"?

WTF were they thinking? This is supposed to be done with the same regularity as an oil filter change.......

Mike and Ashley Read

NS 26C #120 Nauti Girl

Bath, Ont.

[Joe Valinoti]

The starter (actually the solenoid) should not have power to it with the battery switches off.  I’d still consider removing the pump and as those nuts should come off easy with a 1/4” drive set with a flex head 1/2’ socket on an extension.  if you do, buy a seal kit and replace the seals.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/078e8a8c-8234-49da-84e8-ce1963586d39n%40googlegroups.com.

[Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene]

From the Westerbeke parts list , this screw is a 10-24 x 3/8.

A knurled thumbscrew version of this screw should be easy to find.

I like Paul's suggestion of replacing the screws with studs.  Then you could also use wingnuts and you wouldn't need wrenches.

Tom

26C  with a W13, raw water pump front and center. I don't know what the big deal is.

[Paul Miller]

The best part actually is being able to place the gasket and the cover separately and all with one hand, ….. without being able to see…..

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Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper

Cowichan Bay B.C.

[Thor Powell]

I have the old speed seal cover and it works well and would be easy to replicate.  All it is a 1/4 bronze plate with 2 holes and two slots.  Replace the screws with thumb screws ( macmaster carr). When you remove the cover leave the lower two thumb screws loose in place  , remove the upper ones.  Place the slotted end in then install the upper thumb screws.

I need to remove the  intake hose and  turn off the power to replace the impeller.  The original pump with the half mooon key and circlip was a bear t do. 

I'd remove the pump, but one of the 4 bolts is a hard to access.

[Jim Cosgrove]

I had the original Speedseal that I had to replace because the interior of the cover had gotten scored making the pump hard to prime. 

Unfortunately (in hindsight) I replaced it with a Speedseal Life version that was designed to protect the impeller if it ran dry but used two disposable  “anti friction washers” inside. Now those parts are no longer available. 

I still have my original, worn out, Speedseal. I’d love to get a new copy machined if that was feasible and legal. 

Jim Cosgrove 

FATE 30U #343

Galesville, MD

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[Paul Miller]

I found the packing slip and instructions for a Speedseal on Sandpiper shortly after I bought her and spent more than considerable time(s) searching for any trace of it without success before I modified the pump with the studs. It’s now a fairly easy one handed operation but I’d still like to see someone resume production of the Speedseal.

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[Thor Powell]

I think if you took the scored pump to a machine shop they would resurface the cover.  As for the wear plates they too could be easily re created. 

[Bath Water]

Screw/Bolt sizes: new info: The Westerbeke manual may say #10 20 3/8".

I have found it to be a 32 thread...so  #10 32 3/8" for the OEM screw.

With the thicker speedseal cover, that becomes #10 32 1/2".

Mike and Ashley Read

NS 26C #120 Nauti Girl

Bath, Ont.

[Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene]

This proves that you must not make any assumptions about any of these engines.

On the weekend I checked and the screws are definitely 10-24 on my original W13 pump.

Looking at the photo you attached at the very start of this thread , and comparing to the Westerbeke parts diagrams, your pump housing looks a little different. It's also not red which means it's not the original pump. 

OTOH I have been looking for 10-24 thumb screws or thumb nuts and could only find 10-32 so far.

Once you get that pump out, I can't see why you can't just cut some slots in the existing cover to two of the existing screw holes and using the new thumb screws, make your own "speedseal" cover plate. Removing this pump looks like a real pain.

My problem this weekend was a leaky pump. My impeller has now lasted two seasons, going on the third, I think because over the winter I remove it from the pump. Steeping for 6 months in pink anitfreeze may not be good for rubber. The vanes didn't break off after two years and it looks in perfect condition. But the little paper gasket dried up and without that the pump leaks. I made a gasket drawing attached here, it must be printed with "Actual Size" selected not the usual default "fit". And if you have some, on slightly heavier paper than standard printer paper. 

Tom

28C #28 North Star

Penetanguishene, ON , Canada

[Paul Miller]

FWIW this is what mine looked like the other day when I checked the impeller (which was fine …. again). You can see the two studs on the left. The other picture shows an extra stud that I decided I didn’t need and the Allen screws I replaced the originals with.  It’s pretty easy now but I’m looking at using a thicker cover plate and two less screws.

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[Rick Oppegaard]

I've found that by far the easiest way to do this on my 26 is to just remove the starter. It's only 2 bolts. It ends up being about a 30 min. job

[JohnS]

Mike;

Seen worse. The race boat at KYC ("orange peel" they called it because of horrible paint job) had its impeller replaced by a caring person at the end of one summer. Zero blades. None. And, nobody complained of overheating... and nobody knew how long it was in that condition. Looked like a boiled cob of corn, badly eaten. 

Obviously, in our colder waters, we need less water through the exchanger than in the tropics, AND I think we tend to not use our engines at max speed for long hours on end. Not that I'm saying that only vane-stubs should be the way we run them...

JohnS NS26C Bath, ON.

[Mark Collins]

On my 26C this was the process that I found worked:

Raw water impeller

Impeller kit: 48500

1. Remove the alternator (and bracket) 1/2 inch ratchet wrench and socket
2. Remove (2) water hoses from raw water pump 1/4 on hose clamp
3. Remove raw water pump 1/2 inch ratchet wrench
4. Remove pump cover 9/32 socket
5. Remove old impeller
6. With a acid brush liberally apply glycerin to the inside of the pump and all over the new impeller. Some more in the “O”-ring
7. Install the cover, then the pump and then the alternator

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 3:03 PM isotek ventura <isotek...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

I had our man in the yard do it....and he concurs with Rick. Take of the starter, and then it's only 30 min.

He has replaced it using knurled hand bolts for ease of access next time.

While the job is a pain, clearly it's a job that "kicking the can down the road" for another year is dangerous.

While the engine still did not overheat, and the water still came out the back,....it was close to total failure.

3 vanes left of 12, and the missing vanes clotting the ex-changer.

So, lesson to all. Don't let it go 3 years with denial and prevarication.

Get your telescopic hand mirror and many knuckle bandages ready for a blistering barnacle curse laden good time.

Mike and Ashley Read

Nauti Girl NS26C Bath, Ont.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/e6bc750f-42a6-4f68-975d-015bbc76adffn%40googlegroups.com.

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Mark "Gunny" Collins

gunny....@retusmc.com

12 Springwood Drive

Rochester, Ma.  02770

(774)320-0509

"Semper Fi"

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

I have an Aqualarm Model No. 210-206-200 installed after the raw water strainer. It senses water flow and sounds an alarm if the water flow is too low. It goes off long before the engine overheats. With two impeller blades missing it did not sound when the engine was running at higher speeds but at idle speed it was sending a warning. 

The impeller should be replaced annually. The Westerbeke 13 and the Beta 20 have the raw water pump at the front of the engine facing forward so they are easy to access. The Westerbeke 21 as installed in the 26 is brutal. Whoever came up with the design should be forced to change the impeller as punishment.

Mark Powers