Opinions on sail cuts for woven polyester tri-radial vs. crosscuts?

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

I'm shopping for a new sail and have been talking to all the sailmakers that people have been reporting postively here on the discussion board.  (With the exception of Far East, who I haven't gotten around to yet.)

I'm finding some interesting commonalities and differences in what the domestic sailmakers say.

On the common side, each single one has told me that they are the only really trustworthy company -- everyone else is fibbing about using quality sailcloth and everyone else actually has their work done in Asia.  Sigh.  Oh, well.

The difference is about  tri-radial sails vs. crosscuts.

So far, I've heard three different stories about the approximately $1000 or higher USD price difference:

1. Tri-radials are better performance and last longer, vs....
   
   
2. No, tri-radials are slighlty better performance and last about the same, vs...
   
   
3. HELL NO, tri-radials are fine if you're willing to pay A LOT more to buy a laminated sail, but any performance benefits from a polyester tri-radial will disappear after 2-3 years -- and the cloth will deteriorate faster than for a polyester crosscut.

The argument for the third position is that woven sailcloth has its threads at 90-degree angles and that leaves no way to orient the panels for a tri-radial so that the threads are positioned to resist the forces in all directions.  

Also, this sailmaker said, because Nonsuch sails are loose-footed, a sailmaker can design and engineer the shape you need sufficiently with cross-cuts -- i.e., you don't really need the extra help in shaping that you'd get from a tri-radial's geometry.

So, folks, what are your opinions? 

I'm interested in experience about comparative performance.

I'm even more interested in whether anyone has comparative experience bearing on the question about how woven poly tri-radials hold up over the long term.

Thanks,

-- Bob
   Me Gusta
   Nonsuch e26U #233
   Looking forward to seeing folks in Toronto:
        https://nonsuch.org/2024-INA-International-Rendezvous-Status

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Quick reply, Bob -

I replaced a North Norlam ti-radial with a Mack cruising crosscut. The Mack sail was built of Challenger Marblehead 6.77 DACRON. The North sail was a laminate. The problem with the laminate is that the GLUE that holds the layers together got mildew in it and the sail turned black. UNcleanable - looked like hell. The dacron sail is now 7 years old and is as flexible as plywood. Still stiff like the day I got it. I am shocked to hear that any sailmaker would say that their sail is built out of a certain fabric but, in fact, may not be. 

I'd THINK about a triradial if I raced the boat but, if not, I'd go with a crosscut. 

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Thanks for your thoughts, Ernie, especially since yours is the only feedback I've gotten.

Laminate sails are definitely out of budget, plus they don't meet my longevity criteria, plus all the appearance issues you mention.

I hear you on Mack quality.  I bought a Mack vectran cloth sail set for a 42' catamaran in 2002.  Still going strong when I sold it in 2015 (I had a sailmaker inspect and evaluate them so I could include his report in the sales offering).  I saw the boat back on the market in 2023 still carrying those original sails.

It's kind of surprising to realize that I've owned seven boats over 40 years, but this will be only the third time in my life that I've bought a new sail. 

Lots to figure out.  By the time the dust settles, I'll have 4-5 quotes to compare and will post about how they come out.

-- Bob
   Me Gusta
   Nonsuch e26U #233
   Looking forward to seeing folks in Toronto:
        https://nonsuch.org/2024-INA-International-Rendezvous-Status

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Bob -

I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Paul Miller]

Do get around to Fareastsails Bob. Make your choice for your reasons but do check them out. I’ve had several good experiences with them.

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Bob,

You give so much help to everyone and yet you are getting few responses. I suspect the problem is that very few of us have experience with tri-radial sails so are unable to give any helpful information.

I have not used or owned a try-radial cut sail so can't give any info on that. Here is a link to a short article discussing cross cut vs tri-radial  

https://canadianboating.ca/how-to-diy/seamanship/keven-talks-sails-crosscut-vs-triradial-sail-cutting/#:~:text=The%20crosscut%20sail%20is%20a,seaming%20and%20sewing%20to%20perform.

Here is what Precision has to say

https://www.precisionsailloft.com/blog/crosscut-and-tri-radial-sails/

This is what I could find on Quantum's site

https://www.quantumsails.com/en/sails/cruising-sails/upwind-sail/tri-radial-sails-tr-series

The consensus seems to be that try-radial sails will cost more. Cross cut sails will keep working longer but start loosing their shape faster. Tri-radial keep their shape almost until they die but they will die sooner.  

One issue is that woven cloths suitable for trim-radial construction have not been around that long so many of the comments are based on trivia-radial sails made from laminates. Also their have not been that many (comparatively speaking) woven tai-radial sales made so that longevity is not as clear. Furthermore the extra cost of tri-radial sails means that they have been mostly purchased by racers who may take advantage of the extra strength but going with lighter sail cloth which may shorten their life.

When I bought La Reina, she had a Sobstad cross cut sail that had been in use for many years. The shape was not too bad but I decided to buy a new sail in about 2009. I went with an Ed Botterell sail for a number or reasons, primarily because of his experience in building sails for Nonsuches. His recommendation to me was to go with a cross cut woven sail. He said for a lot more money he could make a sail that might be a 1/10 of a knot faster but it would have a much shorter life span. I followed Ed's advice. The new sail pointed better and had a beautiful shape. With tension on the halyard and the choker I could flatten the sail until it was almost like a knife and I could delay reefing. One the next 10 years it stretched and I could not flatten the sail as much. In strong winds I could not pull the sail off of the wishbone no matter how hard I tightened the halyard and choker. I switched to Dyneema for the the two lines and that helped. In 2020 I bought a lightly used UK Tape drive sail (laminate) from a fellow Nonsuch owner here on the West Coast. It has fibreglass tape and weighs more than my Botherell sail. I can again flatten the sail and delay reefing. The UK sail is now about 10 years old
and is still holding its shape, no signs of mildew or delimitation so far. The prior owner bought a UK Titanium Tape drive sail which is lighter than the one I have. 

The sail makers are giving you advice based on their experience and best guess as to what would be the best compromise for you given what you have said your intended use it. 

The answers you got from the sail makers are interesting because the first two may be based on laminate trim-radial where as the last one seems tone specifically addressing woven polyester trim-radial.

So now you have another response but no more information.

Mark Powers

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Well, it's too early to evaluate whether I've done the right thing, but I've made the decision and pulled the trigger.

I did not get quotes from FarEast, despite Paul's advice and confidence on my part that they would have been reasonable.   This was based not on any boat-related criteria, simply a desire to support domestic production.

I did not get quotes for laminates because they're both outside my budget and clear overkill for how I sail.  So, it was strictly cross-cut vs. triradial, both using woven polyester fabrics.

I ended up getting quotes from Precision in Vancouver, Mack in Florida, Quantum from their designated rep to INA (Doug Burtner in Rochester), and the local Ullman Sails representative.  

At a later point, when I have a chance to put together as close as I can to an apples to apples comparison, I'll write them up.   I got quotes from most (but not all) for both cross-cut and tri-radial in woven polyester.  Tri-radial in general seems to add about $1000 USD over cross-cut across the board.

I ended up going with Ullman for a woven polyester tri-radial.  The numbers may change after they do precise measurements this upcoming Wed, but the quote based on expected dimensions was $4722 USD. 

To be honest, the factors that influenced my choice most were intangibles.   Ullman built a tri-radial for my sailing buddy Phil LeVine's N36 that looks beautiful.  They're local and will handle some of the lifting and hauling that my back was not looking forward to.  A number of the sailmakers sent me pictures of both types that they'd done for others, and I noticed wrinkles on their brand new crosscuts that I didn't see on the same makers' tri-radials.

I am guessing/gambling that the tri-radial will last long enough for me to be happy even if it doesn't last as long as a cross-cut.

Based on my plan to live to 100, I'm hoping this'll be the next-to-last, rather than the last, sail that I buy.  I'm curious about tri-radial.  This way, if I'm wrong about next-to-last, at least I won't die wondering if I missed something just to save money.  (Of course, I may instead die knowing for sure I made the wrong choice -- but since there's so many other cases of that already, another one won't add much.)

I'll write up more details about the purchase, installation and initial impressions over the next (with luck) 6-8 weeks, and will try to follow up with one-, five-, ten-, and (maybe?) fifteen- year updates.

-- Bob
   Me Gusta
   Nonsuch e26U #233
   Looking forward to seeing folks in Toronto:
        https://nonsuch.org/2024-INA-International-Rendezvous-Status