Full Battened Sail?

[Bill Cunningham]

It is getting time to replace Catnap's sail and, with all the choices,
it ain't easy!

Older posts on the Nonsuch Listserv had some lively debates on fully
battened sails. If I remember correctly, they could be a nightmare to
lower. However, I looked at an article from Practical Sailor

http://www.practical-sailor.com/marine/mainsail-track-hardware.html

which had good things to say and that Storm Track has fittings
designed for a fully battened sail. (We're thinking about going to
the Storm track anyway, because there is too much friction raising the
sail.)

So, before I even worry about which loft (which may be like selecting
the right religion), there appear to be some good performance reasons
for a fully battened sail. Even with better sail slides and the
Practical Sailor review, is a fully battened sail for a Nonsuch
nonsense?

Bill Cunningham
==================
Catnap 30U #358

[Joe Valinoti]

Well, Bill, I've had a fully battened sail now for about 5 years.  I've raced and cruised with it.  I'm certainly not happy with it but I'm not sure if the fault lies with the full battens or the sailmaker.  I suggest that you get input from someone who has a full battened sail and is happy.  I don't remember what "Bott's thoughts" were on full battens.  I can't say enough good things about the strong track, though.

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour Yacht Club
Oriental, NC

 

  

 

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[Allen Ames]

A few years ago, as we were rewriting the INA Class Rules, we did fairly extensive research on the subject with a number of sailmakers.  My interpretation of the research is that the majority of the sailmakers WHO NEW NONSUCHES INTIMATELY would recommend LONGER battens than were originally specified, but NOT full-length. They DID recommend longer battens than the ones limited by the existing rules systems at the time, such as CCA, IOR, etc.  As a result, we removed the restrictions in the INA Rules, allowing all owners to do whatever they wanted with batten length.

• Longer battens would extend the life of the sail.
• Longer battens would create a better sail shape.
• Full battens make it more difficult "read" the sail. (In a sloop, you are "reading" the jib and adjusting the mainsail accordingly.)
• Full battens often do not "tack" in light air. (The sail remains "inside out.")
• Full battens make it difficult to raise, lower, and furl a Nonsuch sail even with the modern track systems.  (If they do not significantly improve performance, why complicate the simplicity of the Nonsuch?)
• The exception was that the N33, because of the original design specs for the sail with a large high roach, benefit from one or two full battens at the top. 

What many of the sailmakers told us was that we do NOT have a mainsail, but a large #1 genoa jib.

 

As an aside -- we did some informal racing many years ago between a full-battened sail and a conventional one with no definitive differences noticed IMHO.

 

How about it Botts???

 

Allen Ames

 

[Allen Ames]

Sorry, I forgot to renew the old admonition that the Nonsuch sail is VERY unusual for many reasons and that sailmakers who have not made a lot of them which have been successful in racing -- preferably some some one-design racing, no matter how good they may be with other boats, should be avoided.  It's a major investment and buying one from an experienced Nonsuch sailmaker is the safest way to go.
 

Allen Ames

 

[Pat Phelan on Keltic Kat]

Hi Bill
When we purchased our NS30U it came with full battens. They work well when
sailing and we have no trouble reefing. We have the original sail track
and slides but with special slides at the ends of the battens. The full
battens were added sometime after the sail was built, probably to extend its
life. The sail is old but still in good condition and the full battens give
it a decent shape. However, based on our experience I would not recommend
full battens for a Nonsuch because they prevent the sail from dropping
cleanly into the cradle. Since the sail is so big, the battens are very
long and when the sail is lowered the aft end of the lower batten comes down
first and hangs up in the cradle. This leaves about 1/3 of the sail still
up in the wind until we can go forward and pull the ends of the battens
back. This can be a real pain in heavy air and/or waves. Sometimes, when
it is real breezy and we have the time, we can lower the sail very slowly so
that the it luffs which keeps the battens horizontal. Not good for the sail
but at least we don't have to go forward until we want to.

The only solution would be an arrangement that will keep the battens
horizontal as the sail is lowered. If anyone has full battens that allow
the sail to come down cleanly, I would sure like to hear from them.

Pat Phelan
NS30U, 239

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Cunningham" <catnap....@yahoo.com>
To: "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group"
<INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 9:25 AM
Subject: Full Battened Sail?

[Allen Perrins]

Hi

I went with top two battens full length and Strong Track.
Bottom batten would be a rear to handle and stow since it would be about 24
FT
on a NS 30 !!

Al
Barbcat NS 30 C #170

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Cunningham" <catnap....@yahoo.com>
To: "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group"
<INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 8:25 AM
Subject: Full Battened Sail?

[Joe Valinoti]

AMEN!!

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour Yacht Club
Oriental, NC

 

  

 

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[Joe Valinoti]

As much as I complain about my fully battened sail, dropping it is not one of the problems.  It drops into the cradle lines easily (we tend to show off that feature when sailing into marinas) and as long as the crew pulls the aft end of the sail back prior to placing sail ties around it, it's fine.

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour Yacht Club
Oriental, NC

 

  

 

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----- Original Message -----

From: Pat Phelan on Keltic Kat

To: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 10:14 AM

Subject: Re: Full Battened Sail?

[John Newell]

Even the sailmakers who know better can screw up at times.  Make sure that you put down exactly what you want in writing when committing to purchase a sail.  Unlike the jibs on other boats, the Nonsuch "jib" that is well made and taken care of can last 20 years or more.  You have to live with the consequences of your decisions, good or bad unless you have money to burn.

 

John Newell

----- Original Message -----

From: Allen Ames

To: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 9:41 AM

Subject: Re: Full Battened Sail?

[John Newell]

Botts and I settled on long battens but not full length ones when I ordered a new sail for my 26 in 2005.  Also I ordered bronze slides at the time and a substantial first reef which reduces the height of the sail by about 10 feet.  I am happy with the results. The sail will outlast me. 

 

I did not go the Strong Track route because my neighbour, another 26 had it and was not satisfied.  He ended up buying an expensive electric winch.  I believe the problem he had was due to spiders gumming up the track and not the fault of the Strong Track.  I can have the same problem if I do not add a little detergent to my bronze slides and lower track from time to time.  I have avoided the electric winch option,  but have gone to a heavier duty halliard winch this year to replace the original Barient 19 2 speed self tailing since spare parts are no longer available for this winch.

 

This year, I sailed on a 26 with a new full batten sail and found that the full battens put a substantial strain on the track and slides near the top of the mast.  There is compression at the top batten to the extent it can distort and break the slide at the batten while pulling away the slide(s) at the top of the mast.  If full battens are to be used, stay away from stainless slides and make sure a headboard is used with two positions for attaching the halliard so that one can attach it to the aft one to reduce the strain on the upper slides and track.  A metal "ring" attachment is not good enough even though it may be cheaper.

 

John Newell.

  

----- Original Message -----

From: Allen Ames

To: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com

Cc: catnap....@yahoo.com

Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 9:34 AM

Subject: Re: Full Battened Sail?

[Greg Silver]

Misty Cat has a 26 yr old (original Hood) sail to which a full batten was added at top by previous owner. All lower battens are original. We have the original bronze slides and stainless track. I believe this full batten is part of the reason the sail shape holds up so well. I have no trouble raising or dropping the sail, and use Sunlight dish soap to lube the track before hoisting (I apply a couple of squirts undiluted to the top slide before hoisting).

Greg Silver

Misty Cat N26C #121

St. Peter's, Cape Breton

-- 

Gregory Silver, B Des, CGD, FGDC 

Communication Design Group

A Division of CDG Management Inc.

PO Box 178

St. Peter's, Nova Scotia

Canada B0E  3B0

Office 902 535 3990

Cel: 902 631 5050

gsi...@cdg.ns.ca

[ed]

A Botts Thot:

 

As usual, regardless of his descent into the dark side, (which due to my deteriorating eyes, is getting brighter all the time) Ames has put it as succinctly and as accurately as possible.

From: Allen Ames

Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 9:34 AM

To: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com

Cc: catnap....@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: Full Battened Sail?

[Thor Powell]

I hav both a Tides track and a sail woith the top two battens being
full. It was purchased in 2003 and we long many miles on her every
year. Very satisfied with it. Was designed and built by Haarstick
Sails. Haarstick has quite a bit of experiance with unstayed masts so
he is familiar with the issues. Speak to Steve.

[STEVE BOSCO]

Talk to Tim Healy Quantum Sails Newport,RI just built me a sail for NS 30 , great Quality

He recently won J24 worlds.

401 391-1486

Steve Bosco  NS 30 U #210

---

From: Bill Cunningham <catnap....@yahoo.com>
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 8:25:26 AM
Subject: Full Battened Sail?

[STEVE BOSCO]

Hi

Looking for a folding prop for W27 on my 1984 NS 30 Ultra.

Any recommendations or used ones for sale?

Thanks
Steve Bosco #210

---

From: Bill Cunningham <catnap....@yahoo.com>
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 8:25:26 AM
Subject: Full Battened Sail?

[Fred Rachwitz E-mail account]

I have used a Max Prop on my 88 30U, W27A since purchasing the boat in 07 and like it very much.  Mine is a 2 blade, I believe 16 inch which I will check if you want, which I find works just fine.  The prop must be set properly for pitch and thats it.  New versions have zerc fittings which make greasing the prop a one minute job.  Older ones can have the zercs added by PMI or I guess you could do it yourself - but they know how.  I had PMI do it, overhaul and check out the prop and it came back looking like a new one and works great.  Greasing requires disassembly if you do not have the zercs.  Great prop.

Fred

Fred & Linda Rachwitz 

NS 30 U #445

Concerto

Harbor Springs, Michigan  USA

[Joe Valinoti]

It depends on how much you want to spend.  Mine is a Gory 2 blade folder which I purchased used from someone on the list. The hinge pins were a little worn so I had it machined locally.  It added at least a half knot to my sailing speed and no problems under power or when backing.  My total investment was around $400.  There are lots of used props on Ebay and other sites.  Be very particular on the proper size and pitch.

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour Yacht Club
Oriental, NC

 

  

 

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[STEVE BOSCO]

thx Joe

---

From: Joe Valinoti <joes...@gmail.com>
To: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, September 28, 2010 10:49:32 AM
Subject: Re: Folding Prop

[Jon Matthews]

There is lots of past information on our list.

 

I have a 3-blade MaxProp, and except for the high price,

would strongly recommend it.  Very reliable.

No problems, virtually No propwalk, easy maintenance.  

It is "feathering" (not folding), but avoids many problems.

 

Jon Matthews , Evensong 30U #266 Toronto

[R. D. Young]

Our boat came to us equipped with a 16”, three blade, MaxProp. I concur totally with both Fred’s and Jon’s evaluation of the MaxProp.

On 9/28/10 11:45 AM, "Jon Matthews" <matthe...@hotmail.com> wrote:

There is lots of past information on our list.

I have a 3-blade MaxProp, and except for the high price,
would strongly recommend it.  Very reliable.
No problems, virtually No propwalk, easy maintenance.  
It is "feathering" (not folding), but avoids many problems.

Jon Matthews , Evensong 30U #266 Toronto

[Peter Grabow]

Hi Steve,

This season I changed to a Kiwi Feathering Prop (16" 3 blade - 21
degrees of pitch) from the original equipment of a 2 blade fixed
bronze prop. I have a 1987, 30U with a W27A engine.
Some major improvements with the change:
- The engine seems quieter and vibrations have been reduced to next to
nothing.
- Backing down, "prop walk" has all been eliminated. My marina
configuration has me needing to back to starboard when leaving my
slip... with the old prop, the boat pulled hard to port... it was
always a challenge. Now it's easy!
- When engaging reverse to slow/stop the boat, it digs in immediately
and the boat now 'stops on a dime'. No hesitation at all.
- I have not experienced any issues with stalling, or the need to wait
for the engine to "warm-up".
- When under sail, I am easily achieving anywhere from .5 to 1.5 knots
better speed, depending on how hard it is blowing.
- I am now able to point much closer to the wind, to the point that my
fellow boaters (traditional rigs) have accused me of having my engine
on (it was off - I told them to use their binoculars to check my stern
for any raw water discharge... as I pulled away from them!) as they
had to tack and I was able to stay on the original course! This has
been the most fun!!!
- Though I do not believe it has given me any additional forward
speed, the boat seems more stable under power and cuts though the
swells much better than before.
- I still place the transmission in reverse when under sail, as when
sailing at faster speeds, there is a feeling through my feet that the
prop may be rotating or not fully feathering. Once placed into reverse
the feeling/sound disappears.
- The cost ($1350 - delivered) was 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost of the other
folding/feathering props.
- Kiwi's customer service was excellent. Fully responded to all my
questions/concerns prior to my purchase, with no pressure to purchase.

So far, I am very satisfied with the Kiwi feather prop.

Peter Grabow
CAKEWALK III 1987 30U 430
NY, NY

On Sep 28, 9:18 am, STEVE BOSCO <hbo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hi
> Looking for a folding prop for W27 on my 1984 NS 30 Ultra.
> Any recommendations or used ones for sale?
> Thanks
> Steve Bosco #210
>
> ________________________________

> From: Bill Cunningham <catnap.nons...@yahoo.com>

[Allen Perrins]

Hi

What RPM do you get when the engine is wide open ?
Can you reach 3200 RPM ?

16 X 21 seems too much power.

Al

Barbcat NS 30C #170

[Frank Anderson]

Hi,

I just looked up the size of my folding prop. It is a Flexofold 16x13 RH with 1 in. shaft. I have the Westerbeke 27 engine and it works wonderfully both in forward and in reverse.

 

Frank Anderson

Namaste @357

Boston,Ma.

---

From: STEVE BOSCO <hbo...@sbcglobal.net>
To: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, September 28, 2010 9:18:05 AM
Subject: Folding Prop

[Peter Grabow]

Hi Al!

Funny you should ask that... I was out this afternoon and had it wide-
open and it was at about 32/3300 RPM, which surprised me as I hadn't
pushed it past 3000 previously.

I questioned Kiwi on the pitch as my old prop was 16 x 14... they
explained the difference to me, but I can't remember it accurately
enough to re-explain it to you - sorry!

I am going to contact Kiwi during the winter to see if I may be able
to get a bit more forward speed by adjusting the pitch as I top out at
about 6kts (maybe a bit more) under power and this feels somewhat
slower than I remember with the old prop - though it is always choppy
in the Hudson and NY Harbor - not to mention the currents.

Peter
CAKEWALK III 30U 430 NY, NY