Backing NS30 out of slip.

[Mike Jennings]

I have a fixed 3 blade prop and saildrive.

Sometimes I look like a pro when I leave the dock and sometimes not.

Prop walk makes it almost impossible to pull out and make the 90° turn in reverse (although I could do it when I didn't know better???? dumb luck).

What I have to do is make a 90° turn to port while going astern. 

Making a 5 point turn in a tight space makes all the other boaters nervous (and I have lost a few pounds).

Does anyone have a fool proof system for making this simple maneuver?

Thanks.

Mike Jennings.

NS005 Salt Coats.

Port Moody BC.

[Barry Stott]

Mike:

Normally, prop walk kicks your stern to port, so it should be helping you make that 90 degree turn.  Also, looping a spring line off the aft port cleat over the rear port piling can help pull you around in tight quarters.

It baffles me why you continue to use a fixed three-bladed prop.  Not only does this cause the worst prop walk, but it also cuts at least a knot off your forward speed under sail, which is a killer when the wind is light!

I keep sending this out, but here, again, is the link to the best article comparing performance and efficiency for all the major brands of props.  If you take the time to read it, you’ll see that, overall, the 3-blade Flexofold folding prop ranks Numero Uno (and has very little prop walk):

https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/gear/folding-and-feathering-propeller-test-29807

Helpfully yours,

Barry Stott

Chadds Ford, PA

ebs...@aol.com

On Jul 28, 2020, at 9:08 PM, Mike Jennings <mrchi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Bob Gehrman]

I’ve recently been in a new slip where I have to back it in. I hear your pain. One thing I’ve noticed is that once I have backward momentum, I put the gear in neutral. It steers much better without the prop walk as an issue.

Bob Gehrman

NS30U #396 Quickbeam

Baltimore, Maryland

[Mike Jennings]

Yes Barry I have been following the prop debate. Salt Coats is new to me so I am learning a great deal from these posts. Next time she comes out of the water she will go back in with a new prop. A Fold o Flex is the current favourite.

Thanks Bob, I figured that disengaging the drive would help so last week I gave that a try and it worked like magic. Yesterday, full of confidence, I expected the same result, problem solved. No, I was back to the 5 point turn. Don't know what I did different. Wondered if someone else had figured it out and had a system. 

Next I will try pulling out with the rudder in neutral until I dissconnect the drive and then put the helm down. If that does't have the desired effect the last resort is to put the helm down and back out under power and disconnect drive once I have sufficient momentum. It will still pull away from the dock with the prop walk.

If that doesnt work I guess we will have to go to Barry's suggestion of using a spring line.

What could possible go wrong????

Thanks again.

Mike.

[Bob Gehrman]

I regularly use lines to ‘warp’ out of my slip depending on the wind direction. Keep a sharp knife close by.

Bob Gehrman

NS30U #396 Quickbeam

Baltimore, Maryland

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[theen...@comcast.net]

Hi Mike,

 

Although having sailed most of my life I never owned a boat with a diesel engine until I bought my NS 30 3 years ago.  The first lesson I learned was that it was difficult getting on and off the boat when it was bow in.  I realize other boats use floating docks or other set ups where this is not an issue.  But it was for me.  I finally concluded that I was still young (76 at the time) enough to learn how to back the baby in.  I went around to other neighboring boat owners and sought advice.  Each and all said they just sort of bounced them in.  That was not the direction I wanted to go.  I used You Tube and learned a lot including the standing turn.   In my case I need to enter my fairway, implement the standing turn and slip into my slip which is to my starboard when going down my fairway.  I could always get 3 or 4 feet in.   I had no good steerage after that as I would lose all momentum or the prop walk take me places I did not want to go.  So I just man handled it from that point.  If you do not know how to do the standing turn, I encourage you to learn it as it provides an opportunity for you and your boat to really get to know each other.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQzA-LZD8qQ, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoGMAEjiHmU.  These are two videos that you might find very informative.

 

I still was not satisfied so I would get up early and practice, practice, and practice.  I quickly learned that the boat will not do a damn thing in reverse until I had some speed.  The reason I had no control in the slip while backing in was that I had no speed.  Now, prior to entering fairway I put the boat in reverse and drive her until I obtain steerage.  I stand on the other side of the wheel, facing the stern of the boat and drive her in.  The boat will steer differently when in gear or in neutral and you will find in a short period that using both positions (in reverse or neutral) will be very helpful.  For me, I had to get used to handling the shift and throttle from forward of the wheel.   Also since it takes speed to control the boat, one has to learn how to stop the boat as well when entering the slip.  Just a matter of getting used to it.   I am still learning it but I am comfortable that I am now in control and not the prop.

 

In your case I sense that the problem is that you do not have the ability to get speed up allowing you control.  I highly recommend backing it in.

 

There has been a lot of discussion of late about props.  I know that most everybody knows more about props than I ever will.  I probably would not change props to help with your issue.  I don’t race so I don’t care if another will give me speed.  My two bladed fixed prop is good enough for me, came with the boat and I will learn to live with it.  Previously mentioned was the using of lines on pilings to assist in turning.  That’s good knowledge have all the time.  In one of the videos I’ve highlighted illustrates those maneuvers very well.

 

Mike I know your frustrations, but hang in there.  Good luck and practice, practice and practice.

 

Cheers,

 

Butch

 

 

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30, #196

Whiskers II,

Solomons, MD

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[Barry Stott]

Mike:

Conditions vary from day-to-day.  A tidal cross-current could be sometime flowing, or just a breeze from port or starboard to accelerate or counter drift.

Try initially backing out with neutral rudder to gain hull momentum, then reducing or idling power and turning the helm in the direction you want the stern to go, which should steer the stern in that direction.

Prop wash from sudden applications, forward or aft, with the rudder cocked over, can cause stern movement contrary to what you expect.  You first mentioned backing out of a slip, but this last email talks of pulling the stern away from a dock sitting to starboard, in which case a spring line will go to a forward starboard piling from the aft starboard cleat.

It’s helpful to go out into a spacious mooring field or even near a buoy and practice these backing and filling maneuvers  in different winds and currents to get more familiar with what to expect in the way of steerage!

Barry Stott

Chadds Ford, PA

ebs...@aol.com

On Jul 28, 2020, at 10:41 PM, Mike Jennings <mrchi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes Barry, I have been following the prop debate. Salt Coats is new to me so I am learning a great deal from these posts. Next time she comes out of the water she will go back in with a new prop. A Flexofold is the current favourite.

Thanks Bob, I figured that disengaging the drive would help, so last week I gave that a try, and it worked like magic. Yesterday, full of confidence, I expected the same result; problem solved. No, I was back to the 5-point turn. Don't know what I did different. Wondered if someone else has figured it out and has a system. 

Next I will try pulling out with the rudder in neutral until I dissconnect the drive and then put the helm down. If that does't have the desired effect the last resort is to put the helm down and back out under power and disconnect drive once I have sufficient momentum. It will still pull away from the dock with the prop walk.

If that doesnt work, I guess we will have to go to Barry's suggestion of using a spring line.

What could possible go wrong????

Thanks again.

Mike.

On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:08:09 PM UTC-7, Mike Jennings wrote:

I have a fixed 3 blade prop and saildrive.

Sometimes I look like a pro when I leave the dock and sometimes not.

Prop walk makes it almost impossible to pull out and make the 90° turn in reverse (although I could do it when I didn't know better???? dumb luck).

What I have to do is make a 90° turn to port while going astern. 

Making a 5 point turn in a tight space makes all the other boaters nervous (and I have lost a few pounds).

Does anyone have a fool proof system for making this simple maneuver?

Thanks.

Mike Jennings.

NS005 Salt Coats.

Port Moody BC.

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[Paul Miller]

If you sail alone much and want to have confidence in difficult situations consider punching a hole through the bow. It’s the best modification I have done by far.

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay,B.C.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Mike -

I'm lucky. I sail an N22 with a nice, new 9.9 hp outboard and I don't seem to have much, if any, prop walk (tho I used to deal with it on my Carter 30 with a 6 hp Yanmar thumper and a big, fat 2-blade fixed prop ..... Arrgghhhh).

If you don't want to spend much money (save for a cup of diesel fuel), do as Barry and Butch suggest and go off, in different wind, current and sea states and practice. Try ANY screwball idea you can think of. You will get WAY better at this "fine art". I chuckle when I visualize Butch driving his boat "backwards". Actually, he is doing this incorrectly - he should stand in front of the wheel, granted, but face forward, steering the boat with his arms behind his back. That way, he can see what he is leaving.

However, do NOT take Paul Miller's advice and make huge holes in your boat. FLY (COVID, be damned) Paul Miller out to YOU and make HIM put those holes in your boat. This man does some of the the most breathtaking marine installations that I have ever seen. And, he is spot on with his advice.

I have driven very heavy (30 ton in a windy Dutch canal) and unwieldy single-screw fixed prop boats equipped with bow thrusters, while on the boat alone, and I swear by them.Granted, an excellent ($$$$$) folding prop is a great thing. Personally, though,on a 30' heavy boat, a bow thruster is absolutely priceless. They are fantastic and make you grin when you dock or depart, not sweat.

WELL worth the investment.

Stay well.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Tim Sgrazzutti - 1984 NS30U #244]

Mike,

As sailors we don't tend to think like power boaters, but power boat rules apply to engine and steering usage when it comes to docking.  In addition, we also have to anticipate what the wind direction and speed will do, and set up accordingly.

I'm sure you can find better explanations than mine on how to maneuver a single screw inboard with a rudder in close quarters, but in brief.....

rule #1 - unless you have a long runway to gain enough speed in reverse for the rudder to work, plan on having little to no steerage backing up, except for prop walk, which can be used to your advantage if planned out.

rule #2 - prop wash over the rudder is very effective at turning your boat, even at zero boat speed.

Your 90 degree turn will never happen in reverse considering these.  The right method, is back straight out, and with a short (2-3 seconds) burst of throttle, with the rudder hard over, the boat will rotate without moving forward much.  Use reverse to stop any forward motion, followed by a short burst in forward, and repeat as necessary.  Leave the rudder hard over the entire time, take your time shifting, and you can spin the boat to point any direction you need.

Find some open water on a relatively calm day to practice, and you will have less stress in the harbor.

Tim

[James Denmark]

I have very little useful to inject into this conversation other than the following.

C.A.T. will only turn within it's own length when going to port so I always leave the slip with that it mind and a bailout plan that takes advantage of that.

Wind and current in that order are by far the greatest determinants of what will happen when I slip the lines but going a good burst of reverse is needed to get everything flowing properly.

[Mike Jennings]

Strange that Salt Coats pulls to starboard when going astern.

Marina is very placid, wind is from the bow and usually light. Current is minimal. 

Thanks for all your tips. Will keep practicing.

All the best,

Mike Jennings.

NS005 Salt Coats.

Port Moody. BC.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 29, 2020, at 1:38 PM, James Denmark <jmde...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[James Denmark]

Sorry Mike - what I meant was I try to have a bailout plan that involves going forward to port since at the point of no return I’m usually inches from the stern of boats on the other side of the fairway. It’s not uncommon to come out with a plan to turn and end up backing all the way down the fairway if the steerage is there and the wind/current cooperates. 

On Jul 29, 2020, at 18:04, Mike Jennings <mrchi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Strange that Salt Coats pulls to starboard when going astern.

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[Mike Jennings]

Thanks for the clarification. It would be easier to make the starboard turn. 

I have considered backing down and that might be the solution. Better than fouling another boat.

Mike.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 29, 2020, at 3:11 PM, James Denmark <jmde...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joe Valinoti]

I assume then, Jim, that all the 30Cs turn that way as opposed to the 30Us that turn to starboard.  I’ve driven at least 3 or 4 30Us , one 33 and a 36.  My recollection is that I could make them turn in their own length by going to starboard.  Must be the difference between the saildrive and the “V” drive.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

 

From: James Denmark

Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 4:38 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

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[Mark Powers]

Mike,

 I don't have a magic bullet for you.

If I remember correctly Salt Coats has a Volvo with a sail drive. Most Westerbeke, Universal and Yanmar engines take a right hand prop. My experience is limited but I believe most small Volvos take a left hand prop. This means that Nonsuch equipped with the former engines will prop walk to port in reverse and Volvo equipped Nonsuches will prop walk to starboard. No boat speed and more power combine to create more prop walk in both forward and reverse. In forward you will get some water flow over the rudder and therefore some steerage even if the boat is standing still. In reverse there is no water flow over the rudder until the boat starts moving, therefore no assist from the rudder until you are under way. Sail drives generally don't produce much if any prop walk. Nonsuches have high bows, a large mast right forward and a fairly large stack of sail near the bow. The result is that wind from the side will push the bow around, more so in reverse than in forward. To carry out a standing turn as described by other commentators Salt Coats will need to be turned to port as opposed to starboard. You would turn the rudder to port  (leave it alone for the rest of the maneuver) and give a good burst of throttle. This should start the stern moving to starboard and the bow to port. Before the boat gains any way slip into neutral and then forward and give a good burst of throttle. The wash over the rudder should continue to push the stern to starboard and the bow to port. Slip into neutral, before you gain any way and then reverse and another burst of throttle. Repeat the process and the boat should turn in place with no forward or backward motion. As noted above the saildrive will not produce much prop walk so the technique will not be as effective as it is on a boat with an angled shaft drive. If there is a cross wind it is unlikely that the maneuver will work to allow you to turn the bow into and through the wind.

La Reina has a right hand prop so prop walks to port in reverse. She has a downward angled and offset to starboard prop shaft so she produces a fair amount of prop walk in reverse. On a couple of occasions I have gone down dead end slipways in marinas that I was not familiar with. With no cross wind or current I was able to turn her 180 degrees in a slipway that was 30 feet wide. If you ever get the chance watch the boat hands docking boats at a charter company. They force the boats around with huge amounts of throttle but no way on.

When backing up in a cross wind, the wind pushes the bow down. With use of the rudder and throttle I can generally keep La Reina straight but will often be moving side ways while doing so. This makes getting into the right slip difficult

I see a number of options for you:

(1) The Paul Miller installed bow thruster - good news is Paul is only a B.C. Ferry ride away, no expensive flights.  His hourly rate may be prohibitive:

(2) The Barry Stott spring line approach. I find it much easier to use spring lines if I have a bumper wheel on the corner of the dock and an extra pair of hands on board. Depending on how wide your slip is you may need a long sprig to allow you to back out far enough so that you don't hit your neighbour when making your turn:

(3) Learn to back into the slip, al la Bob Gehrman, if you can solve the cross wind issues; Based on what you have said I assume your exit is to starboard of your slip when you are in the slip. If this is correct when you come back to the slip, motor past the and then shift into reverse and use the prop walk and the boat's natural tendency to turn to starboard in reverse to assist in entering the slip.

(4) Sweet talk you marina manager into giving you a slip on the other side of the fairway so that the turn out of the slip is aided by the boats natural turning direction; or

(5) Give up fighting the physics. You want to leave the slip and go to starboard but the bow won't come around. Don't fight it. Let the stern come around to starboard and back down the slipway until you reach an area where you have enough room and speed to allow you to turn around.

Here is an article from Sailing Magazine that discusses this subject:

https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/walking-the-prop

Hope something here is of assistance.

Joe, I think the difference is left vs right handed props not sail drive vs shaft drive.

Mark Powers

La Reina 26C

Vancouver, B.C.

[Joe Valinoti]

Very well said, Mark!!

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

 

From: Mark Powers

Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2020 2:06 AM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Re: Backing NS30 out of slip.

 

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[Mike Jennings]

Thanks Mark, Lots to think about.

I am looking out for Mike of Beyond. He has to make the same manoeuvre and I believe he has the same configuration.

One thing I am sure of, I need a place to practice. I even have a hard time backing down on the anchor.

One thing I am not sure of is the prop. It may not be the original.

Thanks again.

Mike Jennings.

NS005 Salt Coats.

Port Moody BC

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 1, 2020, at 5:32 AM, Joe Valinoti <joes...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

Replying to this in order to bring it back to the top of the discussion list in case of interest, since new owner Roman Sivers  asked about maneuvering in reverse.

This thread from was the most recent last discussion of the topic I could find.

My impression is that the general consensus is that the boats don't back well until they've gotten up enough speed for the rudder to bite.  Gunning the engine in reverse will create major prop walk.  Which side it pulls the boat's stern depends on which model you have and/or whether you've got saildrive vs. prop shaft.   Dealing with it involves giving small bursts of reverse power on the throttle, or alternating the transmission between neutral and reverse.  Both help with getting the boat started moving backwards more smoothly so that the rudder can bite before prop walk kicks in. 

Because our masts and sails are toward the front of the boat, there's a lot of windage that makes the bow especially prone to falling off to windward when backing in a crosswind.  That's a particular thing to look out for.  The only suggestions that I'm aware of for controlling the boat in reverse under those conditions involve running a spring or warp line to the dock.  This requires crew; it's very hard to do that and helm the boat singlehanded. 

It's also been pointed out that some of these same considerations apply if you need to turn the boat sharply in either direction when coming in.  In making sharp turns, in addition to using the effects of prop walk in forward and reverse to help the turn, you can also get a lot of extra help making that sharp turn by combining the effects of gunning in forward and reverse with sharp turns of the rudder.  I recall seeing a discussion of how to rotate the boat 360 degrees in either direction while staying in place.  I know it works because I went out afterwards and tried it.   However, I couldn't find it again with a quick search. 

Anyone want to add/correct/clarify advice on maneuvering in reverse?

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Richard Lane]

Bow falling off to leeward.

Dick Lane

NS26c Swoose

Port Townsend.

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 21, 2021, at 8:02 PM, Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143) <rtne...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John Alexander Stewart]

Bob, Roman, and others interested;

Two things here.

1) For leaving the dock; summer of 2019 we had a Hunter34, with fully enclosed deckhouse (filled with water toys) and a dinghy on davits. And, less than 50 feet to the rock wall, *and* it was the path for the gas dock, and a very active dinghy dock. When departing our slip, we literally had no idea what was coming in from that direction.  We perfected the "Bow Bridle" technique, found on youtube: "Duncan Wells stress free sailing" (https://youtu.be/eItnxls21H0). It allowed us to get prepared, have my go off the boat and visually see what was coming in, then quickly depart without stress. Now that the freighter (ok, Hunter 34) is no longer beside us, we still use it, because my crew is in the cockpit, and departing is dead easy. 

2) To pivot with no way on,  rudder hard over to starboard, cycle the engine through reverse - neutral - forward- neutral - if you think about it, with no way on,  prop-walk pulls our sterns to port when in reverse and the rudder does nothing, forward the prop wash hits the rudder and pushes to the bow starboard. About a second in each step of "R - N - F - N" will allow you to pivot clockwise. 

Now, if it's blowing 40 knots in a tight harbour, no guarantees that either of these will work perfectly!

John NS26C 046 Ottawa, Canada.

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[Pat Furr]

John brings up a great point. Use prop walk to your advantage. A good exercise is to head out to an isolated mooring ball or some other fixed buoy that has no hazards close by. Use that fixed point as a reference and practice maneuvering close to it.  Backing hook turns in both directions, pivots, countering crosswinds while maintaining a straight course while backing.  It is time well spent learning the little tricks for maneuvering in tight challenging situations. It is actually fun to feel the improvements in short order.  Remember to pause momentarily between F and R and R and F. 

Pat Furr

NS 26C #133

Bandolero

Charlotte, VT

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[theen...@comcast.net]

This subject pops up now and again and I hope it continues to do so.   Learning control of our boats is extremely important.  Because of different engines, props, boat configurations, etc. the process of backing in can widely vary.   I’ve mention this before that I have sailed almost all of my life (80 in June) but I never owned a boat with an inboard engine.  Bow in was not going to work with a short finger dock and wanting to cruise bow in may not have been practical at many marinas.  So, I had to learn how to back in.   And I was intimidated by the whole process but I am stubborn and decided I was going to do it even If I appeared to be making a butt out of myself.  The first thing I did was walk down the dock and looked at all sailboats that were backed in.  Had many discussions with the owner and 100 % of the owners did not know how to back in and just crashed and bounced their way in.  That was not going to work for  me.  I went to You Tube and found a number of videos regarding the subject, including the one I’ve shown below.  I have watched this thing three times and I surely will watch it at least three more.   I’ve practiced every method mentioned in the video including the “standing Turn” mentioned by Bob.  I could talk all day about this subject but I think the video can offer more that anything I can say.   Learning how to use prop walk and not being afraid to use speed to your advantage is paramount to successful backing in.  Also knowing the use of “neutral” at the right time even under adverse conditions will be most valuable to skills of backing in.  I suggest the following:  Look at the video (numerous times) and practice, practice and practice even more.  Find an available vacant slip with possibly other vacant slips on each side and practice.  Don’t worry for even for a flashing moment about an on shore or on dock audience.  I know some disagree with my method of backing because I stand on the other side of the wheel while driving the boat in.  Some stand to the side which provides the ability to monitor the bow as well but my control locations are not conducive to do that.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoGMAEjiHmU&t=3355s

 

Cheers,

 

Butch

 

 

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30, #196

Whiskers II,

Solomons, MD

 

 

 

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Richard Lane
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2021 1:00 AM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Backing NS30 out of slip.

 

Bow falling off to leeward.

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[Joe Weinbrecht]

Needless reminder, never let go of the helm in reverse.

 I'm on the inner stbd end of a 400 ft. Fairway. On my 26, i back out with a little stbd helm and once clear can back out the entire length of the fairway with alternating 11 o clock 2 o clock swing of the helm.  The boats handle much better in reverse with some way on which makes the keel and rudder more  efficient. Of course wind and current change all calculations.

Since I'm usually solo, it puts me in the "front" so i can see better. Seldom have cross traffic on weekdays and leave the weekends for the "working class".

Joe

Ns26c# 156

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[Joe Weinbrecht]

Butch, i find backing in easier if I have the opportunity to back down the fairway. I find it harder to control the situation with little or no way on.

Joe

Ns26c# 156

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[Michael Jabara]

Pat, great point. Everyone brings up the value of practicing using the prop walk and windage to your advantage. 

For example, with a following wind, I’ll head straight for a windward fuel or end tie dock at 90° and just before the approach, I make a hard turn to starboard which turns the vessel on her center.

At 45°, I’ll put her into a firm reverse which brings her back parallel to the dock.  Go into neutral with the boat dead stopped, then let the wind bring me gently into the dock.

Above all, patience and slow speeds when docking these vessels is a good watchword, particularly if you’re used to powerboats. 

Michael Jabara

Hobbes II - 1995 NS 

San Rafael, California 

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 22, 2021, at 5:14 AM, Pat Furr <rocop...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[theen...@comcast.net]

Joe,

 

I agree completely.  Although I think it important to attempt to master the standing turn for potential applications, I do not use it for entering my slip.  Out in the open water I build up some sternway steam to the point I have steerage.  Then I enter the fairway and turn into my slip.    Once while doing that, the bow got a blast of wind forcing the bow further into the dead end fairway.  Knowing that I could not continue with stern in, I went forward towards the end and did a standing turn and did a partial standing turn as shown in the previous video to back into my slip.  The process worked great.   I think the other important thing to do is to recognize that things may not be working as planned, usually because of wind gusts or a gone astray decision, and simply go back out and try it again.   Knowing the standing turn will normally allow for ease of returning to where one started.

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[Mike Jennings]

A tip I found useful.

With the boat secured to the dock, engage astern. Look over the side and see where the wash is.

The prop walk pushes Salt Coats with her Volvo MD11C and saildrive, firmly to starboard when going astern. 

Mike Jennings.

NS005 Salt Coats.

Port Moody, BC.

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[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

I can't believe I typed windward -- of course the bow blows downwind in a crosswind.  That's not a sonic boom you hear, it's my palm hitting my forehead.

Thanks to everyone who caught that.

Sorry,

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Mariner's Cat V 26C Brentwood Bay BC]

My 26 will slide to port in reverse like a tango dancer, to starboard it is a burst and coast affair.  Had a dock once with 28 feet of faiway behind me and 6 inches on each side.  Had to back put to port and reverse 150 feet to a spot where there was room to turn about.  You soon learn to "go with the flow" and not fight mother nature.

[theen...@comcast.net]

Question?  Is not the difference of going starboard or port in reverse directly related to whether you have a right turning or left turning prop?  My 30 C goes port in reverse.   I can make it turn in its length in reverse with my right turning prop.

 

The video I mentioned earlier addresses all of the possibilities including using a spring line on an outer piling to help make the 90 degree turn.

 

Cheers.

 

Butch

 

 

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30, #196

Whiskers II,

Solomons, MD

 

 

 

 

 

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[David Darmstadter]

I second that emotion. Backing in is easier for me. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 22, 2021, at 11:47 AM, theen...@comcast.net wrote:



Joe,

 

I agree completely.  Although I think it important to attempt to master the standing turn for potential applications, I do not use it for entering my slip.  Out in the open water I build up some sternway steam to the point I have steerage.  Then I enter the fairway and turn into my slip.    Once while doing that, the bow got a blast of wind forcing the bow further into the dead end fairway.  Knowing that I could not continue with stern in, I went forward towards the end and did a standing turn and did a partial standing turn as shown in the previous video to back into my slip.  The process worked great.   I think the other important thing to do is to recognize that things may not be working as planned, usually because of wind gusts or a gone astray decision, and simply go back out and try it again.   Knowing the standing turn will normally allow for ease of returning to where one started.

 

Cheers,

 

Butch

 

 

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30, #196

Whiskers II,

Solomons, MD

<image001.png>

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[Joe Valinoti]

Butch:  My understanding is that you are correct about it being determined by the direction of the prop.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Joe Valinoti]

In general, backing in is better for accessing your boat.  Particularly if you have short finger piers.  More important, is if you have any kind of rise and fall of water, you can have longer dock lines which give you a better range of up and down motion where you would be less likely to have to change shorten/lengthen your lines during periods of high or low water. 

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

[Elizabeth Powers]

Hi,

People talk about the need for 'speed' ignorer to have control going in reverse. No one defines what they mean by 'speed'. 

In my experience it means only enough motion to create flow over the rudder. Too much speed in reverse and you may find the wheel pulled out of your hands and the rudder slammed against the sops followed by the bow swinging quickly over. 

With our 26C I have learned that the amount of speed or throttle is determined by the wind and current speed and directions. Like balancing a bicycle practice will give you the right feel. Also accept that sometimes you have one idea but conditions require you to have a plan B. Don't fight it if it looks like it won't work. Don't approach anything any faster than you want to hit it.

Practice and you will get better. Stay calm, think about what is happening and why.

Now that I have said this I had better go out and practice.

Rob Powers

Respite 26C #50

Sidney BC

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

 
Since I wrote my novel in this thread back in July, La Reina has graduated from a 2 blade Maxprop to a three blade Maxprop. The propwalk in reverse is almost completely gone. My docking technique no longer works and spinning her around on the spot using the propwalk is likely not an option. I use to come in to a port tie slip at about a 45 degree angle. As I got close to position I would put her in reverse and give a quick short  shot on the throttle. This would stop the forward momentum and suck the stern into the dock. On a good day ( on bad days I prayed for lots of helpers) I could slip her into a side tie slip with only two feet to spare between me and the boats ahead and astern. Now when I try I am nicely stopped and the stern is still 3 feet off the dock. Hero to Zero in one prop change. I am hoping that starboard ties will be easier.

I am going to have to go out and practice a new technique.

Mark Powers

[theen...@comcast.net]

Good Morning Rob,

 

To me the correct amount of speed (going in reverse) is that speed necessary to obtain steerage.  Any more than that would not seem practical or safe.  Depending on wind, current and other factors the amount of speed necessary can change.  For example, since I obtain my sternway steerage in the open water I need enough speed to steer into my marina fairway.  Usually the other boats already parked block much of the wind as I enter the fairway along with a possible current change that I adjust my speed accordingly as I approach my slip.  Usually, at this point I have the boat in neutral which provides even more steerage as the prop walk is gone for that “neutral” period of time  As I mentioned before, I stand on the other side of the wheel with a death grip on the wheel only leaving go to adjust the controls.   As you mentioned, it will take practice, lots of practice.   I know of some boaters who will not consider practicing in heavier wind days.  Those are some of the better days to practice as it probably will be that type of day when one’s skills are needed the most.  It is important, to me, to get some experience with that wind turning your bow around when you did not have enough speed.  On another day and conditions that same amount of speed may have been way too much.   The proper amount of speed varies and there is no fixed answer.  Learning when to go into neutral and learning to thrust it into forward at the proper time is just as important as learning speed.  The other thing important to learn is to know when it is not going as planned and to cancel the attempt to park and to simply go back out and try again.  Learning the “standing turn” may help one get out of trouble when trapped in your fairway because of a botched landing.



From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Richard Lane

Sent: Monday, March 22, 2021 1:00 AM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Backing NS30 out of slip.

 

Bow falling off to leeward.

Dick Lane

NS26c Swoose

Port Townsend.

Sent from my iPad

 

On Mar 21, 2021, at 8:02 PM, Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143) <rtne...@gmail.com> wrote:



Replying to this in order to bring it back to the top of the discussion list in case of interest, since new owner Roman Sivers  asked about maneuvering in reverse.

 

This thread from was the most recent last discussion of the topic I could find.

 

My impression is that the general consensus is that the boats don't back well until they've gotten up enough speed for the rudder to bite.  Gunning the engine in reverse will create major prop walk.  Which side it pulls the boat's stern depends on which model you have and/or whether you've got saildrive vs. prop shaft.   Dealing with it involves giving small bursts of reverse power on the throttle, or alternating the transmission between neutral and reverse.  Both help with getting the boat started moving backwards more smoothly so that the rudder can bite before prop walk kicks in. 

 

Because our masts and sails are toward the front of the boat, there's a lot of windage that makes the bow especially prone to falling off to windward when backing in a crosswind.  That's a particular thing to look out for.  The only suggestions that I'm aware of for controlling the boat in reverse under those conditions involve running a spring or warp line to the dock.  This requires crew; it's very hard to do that and helm the boat singlehanded. 

 

It's also been pointed out that some of these same considerations apply if you need to turn the boat sharply in either direction when coming in.  In making sharp turns, in addition to using the effects of prop walk in forward and reverse to help the turn, you can also get a lot of extra help making that sharp turn by combining the effects of gunning in forward and reverse with sharp turns of the rudder.  I recall seeing a discussion of how to rotate the boat 360 degrees in either direction while staying in place.  I know it works because I went out afterwards and tried it.   However, I couldn't find it again with a quick search. 

 

Anyone want to add/correct/clarify advice on maneuvering in reverse?

 

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

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[Joe Valinoti]

Well said, Butch.  Especially about aborting and retrying.  Never be too embarrassed to do that.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

[Paul Miller]

I too put my two cents in this thread the first time around but will reiterate my comment for newcomers. I’m not a bad boat handler. I used to operate a small ferry in Victoria harbour that needed to arrive and leave five docks an hour in all conditions of load, wind, traffic, light, etc. I also trained the other skippers.

But that said with this boat and it’s 53’ stick right up in the bow I find myself much more willing to go sailing and less worried about returning to the dock in bad conditions since I added my bow thruster. I singlehand and it has made my sailing life very much easier. 

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Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper
Cowichan Bay B.C.

[newelljc9]

Skippers who do not like prop walk would be interested in the 3 bladed folding Australian Stainless steel slipstream by Seahawk. It has no prop walk on my 26. A good friend was impressed with it and bought one  for his 30 when he lost a blade on his old prop. At first, he did not like it as he had factored in the prop walk for decades. He  had to learn to dock over again without the aid of prop walk to get him into his dock.

John Newell

Mascouche 26C1

Toronto