Nonsuch Luck de-masted

[Bob Illingworth]

All,

Many thanks for all your recommendations for reefing without engine.  Sadly our chances of practicing have been curtailed by a catastrophic event.  On Saturday 6 June I was sailing Nonsuch Luck with a crew of three, the wind was easterly about 23 kn, gusting 25 - 27 kn, on a starboard beat with one reef in. The sea state was slight; we were well heeled over.  At about 1450 hours there was a tremendous bang, the mast had sheared just below the collar that supports the blocks which are used to direct the lines from the mast over the coach roof to the cockpit.  As you can see from the pictures the whole rig, mast, boom and sail were submerged in the sea. The rescue services were quickly on the scene and these are the photos I took of the rig being released from the halyards and reefing lines.

 

Nonsuch Luck de-masted

 

The rescue boat was able to tow the rig to shore and leave it for me to recover from the beach.

 

My insurance company tell me that this was a non-insurable event as there was no external factor ( such as colliding with another boat or other solid structure) and that the cause was 'fair wear and tear'.  I suggest that it would be prudent to remove this collar on all Nonsuch masts during the winter lay up, to examine the metal for signs of fatigue.

 

I am now investigating replacing the mast with a carbon fiber type; does anyone have experience of specifying, ordering and fitting a carbon fiber mast?

 

Bob Illingworth

Nonsuch Luck, 30U

Cambridge, UK.

[Jon Fitch]

On Jun 10, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Bob Illingworth wrote: 

I am now investigating replacing the mast with a carbon fiber type; does anyone have experience of specifying, ordering and fitting a carbon fiber mast?

I am certainly very sorry to see that. I don't think mast failures in that location on that vintage boat are at all common. 

I think most or all of the carbon masts supplied for the boats in North America were built by Ted VanDusen of Composite Engineering in Concord, Mass. USA (+1 978 371 3132), <http://www.vandusenracingboats.com/>. Whether it would be cost effective to ship one from there to the UK I could not guess. Given the exchange rate, and the fact that he has built a number of them, it is worth a call. He might be able to supply you with some engineering details, if it is not feasible to ship. 

Jon Fitch

'Anomaly'

[Trish Waddell]

We are interested in possibly purchasing a Dinghy Tow system, however, neither
telephone calls nor emails are being answered. Has anyone else had issues with
their customer service? Or know of another way to reach them?

Thanks so much!

Trish and Bob
NS30U #414 Cat-Sass
Victoria, BC

Cell in Victoria 250 661 3149
Cell in Mazatlan 044 669 146 2875
Skype ID: twteedublu
Blog: http://teedublu.blogspot.com/

"We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust our sails" Anonymous

[per...@bellsouth.net]

I have a Nonsuch 260.  It and the 324 and 354 were the last of the Nonsuch line and came with carbon fiber masts and booms provided by Composite Engineering,Inc.  Just "Google" them.

 

Paul Ring

NS 260 "Polecat"

Fairhope (AL) Yacht Club 

-------------- Original message from Bob Illingworth <bob.ill...@NTLWORLD.COM>: --------------

[Nigel Fontaine]

Bob,
 
Very concerning........  I will make a point of checking ours this fall.  What year is your boat and do you pull the mast at the end of each season?
 
Best of luck to you.   I hope everything works out.
 
Nigel / Sandra
 
Cat Tales
N30 #482
PCYC
Toronto

 

 

---

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 00:45:40 +0100
From: bob.ill...@NTLWORLD.COM
Subject: Nonsuch Luck de-masted
To: NONS...@listserv.aol.com

---

Create a cool, new character for your Windows Live™ Messenger. Check it out

[Jack Lombard]

As the owner of NS 30 number # 82 I am concerned about the pontentil  of the rig coming down. With proper yearly. examination by some one who knows what to look for, you will develop a confidence level...Might I rcommend Gowie Insuranc agency....Jack lombard..

[Mpassero]

Holy Cow.  So sorry for your mishap Bob.  We all need to find out how this failure came about so that we can check our rigs for the same potential.  What is your hull no. and year of your boat?

[est...@juno.com]

[Mike]

Bob:   Certainly a sad event. I hope you are able to secure a new mast soon. I'd also like to thank you for sharing the photos. Hopefully the rest of us will not have to post similar ones. I am amazed  from looking at the photos how little damage (other than the mast failure) occurred to your boat.  It was also interesting to see inside the mast and that the electrical conduit was tacked to the mast (5200 I assume)  I am also struck by the helpfulness of the rescue crew in your part of the world in helping to release the mast and tow it to shore. I'm not sure the U.S. Coast Guard crews would have been so eager to help on board unless the boat was in imminent danger and I really doubt they would have towed the rigging to shore like your services did.  It's also very sad the insurance company is not more helpful in acquiring a new stick.  Hope your repairs are quick and you are out sailing again soon.   Mike Girardo BIANKA 1986 30U --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Bob Illingworth <bob.ill...@NTLWORLD.COM> wrote:

From: Bob Illingworth <bob.ill...@NTLWORLD.COM> Subject: Nonsuch Luck de-masted

[August Trometer]

I bought one of those 15 yrs ago. SAVE YOUR MONEY! The "trapeze" as my
wife called it was VERY unsightly, didn't work well, hampered exiting from
the transom.

[Joe Thompson]

Thank you so much for sharing the photos...I have a couple of thoughts for the list to consider....I have had the good fortune to sail the NS 260, 324, 354, and especially the Melges 24, with their carbon sticks, as well as my own NS26 with its aluminum stick. The Melges stick is amazingly strong and resilient, although a few people have figured out ways to break them. I was certain I would be a member of that group at Key West 1994 when I lost a backstay turning block with the chute up in 20 plus knots of wind and waves, but the stick stayed together!!

The carbon sticks are in my estimation a huge performance and safety improvement over the aluminum ones because of the lowering of the CG of the boat. More righting moment, less pitching etc. Lots of new cruising boats choose carbon sticks for these reasons. Carbon mast engineers and manufacturers are very concerned with shock loading, stresses at attachment points, etc. and really overengineer their products. They are not just for race boats.

It is my opinion that if any boat could benefit from a carbon stick it is the Nonsuch. At the same time my feeling is that "Nonsuch Luck's" misfortune, while regrettable, is not a sign of a widespread problem with the existing masts.

I know that the old owner of "Cleo" NS 33 who upgraded to a carbon stick was very happy with his carbon mast. Perhaps there are others who have changed from aluminum to carbon who could share their thoughts and experiences.

Thanks for your post and photos. As captain you handled the event very well! Please keep the list updated on your replacement decisions.

Joe Thompson NS 26U "Cato"

[David Young]

I am very sorry to hear of the loss of your mast and your insurer’s response but thankful no one was injured. I would like to know what our resident Nonsuch rigging expert Mike Quill’s take on this incident is. Is it common for Nonsuch masts to fail at the location that Bob’s did? I am not an engineer but it seems a rather odd place for a catastrophic failure to have occurred. Is there something the rest of us should be doing to prevent similar failures on our boats? I have never removed the mast collar from our mast. Is that something one should do regularly? What would signs of impending failure in that area look like? What say you Mike?
--
David Young
Bay Cat, 30U #402
Freeland/Suttons Bay, MI

On 6/10/09 7:45 PM, "Bob Illingworth" <bob.ill...@NTLWORLD.COM> wrote:

All,
Many thanks for all your recommendations for reefing without engine.  Sadly our chances of practicing have been curtailed by a catastrophic event.  On Saturday 6 June I was sailing Nonsuch Luck with a crew of three, the wind was easterly about 23 kn, gusting 25 - 27 kn, on a starboard beat with one reef in. The sea state was slight; we were well heeled over.  At about 1450 hours there was a tremendous bang, the mast had sheared just below the collar that supports the blocks which are used to direct the lines from the mast over the coach roof to the cockpit.  As you can see from the pictures the whole rig, mast, boom and sail were submerged in the sea. The rescue services were quickly on the scene and these are the photos I took of the rig being released from the halyards and reefing lines.
 

Nonsuch Luck de-masted <http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrocalus/NonsuchLuckDeMasted?authkey=Gv1sRgCPbDvKe02PXyXA&feat=directlink>

[John F. Grainger]

Truly a nasty event and one that we all fear.

Not being a metallurgist, but having lived around metal fatigue my whole life,( Bearing industry/Shafting) I have always worried about the combination of bending moment on an un-stayed mast at the deck.

Last Monday we raced H&G in really lumpy seas. 2 meter  short waves, and 20+ nts, we did not reef (won the race)

My point is two fold, one the mast was obviously bowed and the bend/bow was originating from the deck in an increasing arc. not from the joint.

There is obviously a major reaction at the deck.

The second is a combination; any cracks, surface or structural, generated by this, would in your world be constantly attacked by salt water.

Discolouration at the failure point seems to indicate this.

Tried to blow up the photo but the resolution etc. did not allow much.

But i would seriously have an expert give an opinion, you are in for a big bill so a few hundred for ammunition to fight the risk management guys would be an investment.

Even if you don't win, you will make them spend money defending their non-insurable claim.

(there are many chaps around your area who could do this, you live in an area of aluminium tube experts, race car chassis?? and druxford?)

Again we have no real idea of the aluminium used in the mast or whether back in those days anyone actually did QA on the material.

There is a whole military debate on salt water spray effect on aluminium. forcing them into a deal.

A simple Google search "Aluminium salt spray " offered a days worth of reading on just this type of structural failure.

Suffice to say, you found the Nonsuch rigs major fault and we should all pull our rigs on an annual basis and inspect completely.

Believe that our noble INA association may want to look into this and locate some metallurgists to create some inspection specs.

There is also an industry based on sprays to protect aluminium against such corrosion.

But as you found it is more of an inconvenience than a catastrophe.

Wish you well, would love to go for a  sail when you get "Nonsuch Luck" re-rigged.

John F Grainger 

Hope& Glory

Nonsuch33 #16

Lake Ontario

[John Newell]

Bob,

 

I guess part of the cause from looking at your excellent photos is that salt accumulated below the collar over the years permitted electrolosis to reduced the strength of the aluminium below the collar giving you a clean break at that point.  Being close hauled would exert stress at the base of the mast and the time for a weakened mast to break.  Those who tend to over sheet risk premature mast failure apart from sailing on one's beams end at reduced speed and increased leeway.

 

If I am right,  it would be a good idea for the Nonsuch fleet to ensure the mast is washed thoroughly below the collar and a protective coating applied on a regular basis especially when sailing in salt water.  Rain will wash the mast down to the collar but brine will accumulate under it.  If I am wrong, washing below the collar will do no harm. 

 

Replacing the mast with a carbon fibre spar as you suggest seems to be the logical thing to do in salt water.  I hope the US manufacturer can give you a good price.  Exchange rates should work in your favour, but I doubt that they could supply you with a replacement mast in time for the Around the Island Race.  It would not hurt to ask for your money back or at least allow you to enter next years race.  Seems only fair.

 

John  

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob Illingworth

To: John Newell

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 5:31 AM

Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted

John,

Thanks for your message; we were well sheeted in so the end of boom would have been immediately above the starboard aft rail.

Bob

From: John Newell

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 1:40 AM

To: Bob Illingworth

Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted

Bob, I am so sorry to hear it and just before your big event.  Bad Luck.....

[Allen Ames]

I couldn't disagree more with August! We carried an Avon RIB, complete with
9.9 HP Nissan engine on a Dinghy-Tow from Connecticut to Maine and then down
to Key West and back with absolutely no problems. It was phenomenally
simple and quick to deploy and reset. To me, practical is beautiful and
that rig is one of the most practical things I have ever had on a sailboat.

For photos, see my album at
http://tinyurl.com/ablt38

Allen Ames
Boating blog: http://camano130.blogspot.com
Photo albums: http://community.webshots.com/user/allen_ames

[Barry Michaels]

Bob,

Before commissioning a new mast, unless cost is no object, and you have been looking for an excuse to move to carbon, I would check with a qualified naval architect like Eric Sponberg (ewspo...@sponbergyachtdesign.com) regarding repair and insurance company position.  Theoretically  at a cost, this could be repaired to be better than new.  That said, specified method and execution of same might be a bit of a tricky proposition with few takers.  I have spliced aluminum spars, fixed and built  numerous  wooden spars as well as having produced numerous advanced composite wonders and it is amazing what can be done when all looks lost.  If anyone would know if this would be possible it would be Eric who has had an incredible amount of experience in free standing rigs (check out his website). It might be possible that repair would be covered by you policy where replacement is not.  If you decide to go to carbon, Eric may be able to recommend additional carbon mast manufacturers other than those already mentioned.   

Condolences and good to see nobody was hurt,

Barry & Brigid Michaels

    NS 36' # 9 Cat Ketch  “Tally-On” (One-of-a-Kind)

    St. Augustine, FL 

[Mike Quill]

Hi All

 

Yes this is a truly sad event. It's just very lucky that these masts do have a tendency to fall forward.

 

I just emailed Mr. Illingworth and asked for detailed pictures of the broken mast. Most times a sudden failure like this is the result of an undetected crack or in this case possibly a drilled and tapped hole in the so called "danger zone" I am leaning toward the latter in this case. But the photos will tell more.

 

If indeed it is a undetected crack (or hole)  there will be a difference in colour from the fresh break to the starting point.  

 

And as you all well know I hate to beat the same drum over and over, but .......regular inspection by competent people is the key with the mast down. And now that insurance companies are hanging their hats on the phrase "fair wear and tear" I'd be even more diligent.

 

One thing I have learned, however, when dealing with insurance companies, it's best to sit down with them and have a heart to heart. Let them know these masts have a finite life and you want to be covered in the event of a failure. Once they are aware of these facts, they (I believe) have a legal obligation to protect you. And as always keep good records of your maintenance schedule. Nothing works better than the written word, especially if it goes to litigation.

 

 

 

Mike Quill
 
Need Mast and Rigging repairs or replacement?
Go To http://www.mqyr.com 

----- Original Message -----

From: David Young

To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:56 AM

Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted

I am very sorry to hear of the loss of your mast and your insurer’s response but thankful no one was injured. I would like to know what our resident Nonsuch rigging expert Mike Quill’s take on this incident is. Is it common for Nonsuch masts to fail at the location that Bob’s did? I am not an engineer but it seems a rather odd place for a catastrophic failure to have occurred. Is there something the rest of us sho uld be doing to prevent similar failures on our boats? I have never removed the mast collar from our mast. Is that something one should do regularly? What would signs of impending failure in that area look like? What say you Mike?

--
David Young
Bay Cat, 30U #402
Freeland/Suttons Bay, MI

On 6/10/09 7:45 PM, "Bob Illingworth" <bob.ill...@NTLWORLD.COM> wrote:

All,
Many thanks for all your recommendations for reefing without engine.  Sadly our chances of practicing have been curtailed by a catastrophic event.  On Saturday 6 June I was sailing Nonsuch Luck with a crew of three, the wind was easterly about 23 kn, gusting 25 - 27 kn, on a starboard beat with one reef in. The sea state was slight; we were well heeled over.  At about 1450 hours there was a tremendous bang, the mast had sheared just below the collar that supports the blocks which are used to direct the lines from the mast over the coach roof to the cockpit.  As you can see from the pictures the whole rig, mast, boom and sail were submerged in the sea. The rescue services were quickly on the scene and these are the photos I took of the rig being released from the halyards and reefing lines.
 
Nonsuch Luck de-masted <http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrocalus/NonsuchLuckDeMasted?authkey=Gv1sRgCPbDvKe02PXyXA&feat=directlink>
 
The rescue boat was able to tow the rig to shore and leave it for me to recover from the beach.
 
My insurance company tell me that this was a non-insurable event as there was no external factor ( such as colliding with another boat or other solid structure) and that the cause was 'fair wear and tear'.  I suggest that it would be prudent to remove this collar on all Nonsuch masts during the winter lay up, to examine the metal for signs of fatigue.
 
I am now investigating replacing the mast with a carbon fiber type; does anyone have experience of specifying, ordering and fitting a carbon fiber mast?
 
Bob Illingworth
Nonsuch Luck, 30U
Cambridge, UK.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.61/2167 - Release Date: 06/10/09 05:52:00

[Keeping, Dave]

Hi John et. al.

 

Could you expand a little more on the basis for pursuing the insurance claim?

What are “we” looking for that makes this damage covered by the insurance?

 

I seem to recall that when Dearie lost her mast the damage was covered by insurance.

 

Thanks

Dave Keeping

St. John’s, NL

Catalyst II, N33, Hull 22

 

---

From: Nonsuch Yacht Owners Discussion List [mailto:NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM] On Behalf Of John F. Grainger
Sent: June 11, 2009 10:58 AM
To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted

 

But i would seriously have an expert give an opinion, you are in for a big bill so a few hundred for ammunition to fight the risk management guys would be an investment.

[Joseph L. Tierney]

I agree with 2/3 of what August says. It is unsightly. It all but
prevents exiting from the transom. In addition, it is one more thing
for the mainsheet to snag on.
But...it does work VERY well.
Like everything else about sailboats, it presents a trade-off of
advantages and disadvantages.
Joe Tierney Allegro NS33 #64 Annapolis, MD

--
No trees or small animals were tortured or killed to send this message,
but a large number of innocent electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

[David McQueeney and Carole Ashley]

I too am very satisfied with the Dingy Tow system on Sea Cat after two
years of experience. No problems. Works as advertised.

Dave McQueeney
Sea Cat 30U #413

[Robert & Diane Hindle]

I'm in complete agreement with Mr. Ames, I dragged my 9.6 ft 8 hp
dinghy down the east coast to the Bahamas and only took the engine off
to cross the Gulf Stream. It's been great for 5 years
Bob Hindle
Pipe Dream NS 30C # 230

On Jun 11, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Allen Ames wrote:

[Bill Spencer]

Regarding the insurance company's refusal to cover the loss of the
mast and deem it "fair wear & tear", it begs the question: If a
through-hull below the water line were to break and the boat sank,
would that not be covered? Is that fair wear & tear?

Breakage is one of the reasons we buy insurance, and unless the
policy explicitly excludes it there may be some room for negotiation
on this matter. Certainly the matter should be explored in more detail.

Bill Spencer
LIONHEART, NS30U #352 Hyde Park, NY

[Lloyd Robbins]

Thank you for the photos of the mast. . You should challenge your insurer .  As a lawyer who deals with insurance claims I would not accept their position. These masts do not fail as a result of ordinary wear and tear.  Insurance companies always start with this position .

 

I have an older nonsuch . I do not have a mast collar . I have a fitting which is riveted onto the mast. I have been thinking of getting a mast caller but after looking at your pictures I wonder if the collar does not actually make a greater stress point. Are there any experts that can comment on this.

 

Instead of having a collar could a fitting be bolted through deck  sepreate from mast or would that cause too much strain on the deck.

 

I once was considering getting a carbon mast. I talked to a rigger friend who has considerable experience  and his one comment was that the carbon mast was more susceptible  to lightening . Can anyone comment.

 

---

From: Nonsuch Yacht Owners Discussion List [mailto:NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM] On Behalf Of John Newell
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 10:32 AM
To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted

[Arthur Langley]

Here’s some of Eric’s inspired work . . . http://www.pbase.com/nonsuch/sponberg_designs

Cheers,

Arthur Langley
BEAR AWAY  30C  54 1980    BEAR AWAY  30C  14 1979    BROADWAY  30U  426 1987
Wells ME  Wells Harbor                  South Baymouth ON                      Toronto ON  Royal Canadian YC
New Hampshire & Maine Fleet     Lake Huron Fleet                             West-Lake Ontario Fleet

cel  207.459.6410       tel.  207.449.1980

There are good ships, there are wood ships, and these ships sail the sea
But the best ship, is friendship and may this always be!   Irish Poem

[Joseph L. Tierney]

[Bob Illingworth]

All,

As you can imagine the reason for this failure is only of passing interest to me, I have to look forward to replacing with carbon fiber.  However if the INA or members are willing to pay for a metallurgist's report, I will be pleased to arrange for an inspection to take place.

Bob Illingworth,

Nonsuch Luck

From: David Young

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 1:56 PM

To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted

[John Newell]

Thanks Arthur

 

Good to see Eric uses travellers (horses) on his designs.  Makes for  more efficient and easier to handle sheets as well as the ability to set the sail ahead of the mast on runs without requiring an overly long sheet.  Added bonuses:

 

1) less likely for an unintended gybe.

 

2) more efficient sail as wind speed is increased, reducing pressure ahead of sail allowing free standing rigs to sail for the mark faster rather than tacking downwind as is the custom for standard rigs when racing.

 

3) less stress in a gybe as the traveller is more efficient at absorbing shocks than the standard Nonsuch main sheet block mounted amidships.

 

4) impossible to over sheet main when close hauled. 

 

Cheers

 

John Newell

 

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto

 

 

 

   

----- Original Message -----

From: Arthur Langley

To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:37 PM

Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted

http://www.pbase.com/nonsuch/sponberg_designs

1980    BEAR AWAY  30C  14 1979    BROADWAY  30U  426 1987
Wells ME  Wells Harbor                  South Baymouth ON                      Toronto ON  Royal Canadian YC

Lake Huron Fleet                             West-Lake Ontario Fleet

[phl...@comcast.net]

My mast failed at exactly that spot 2 years ago with the mast having sheared the fasteners holding the base of the mast to its octagonal base piece allowing the mast to turn with a tack and shear the holes (my boat is a built-in-1983 Classic) where a through bolt was placed at deck level.  I noticed the turn and discovered the tears in the mast and was able to replace the mast before it went over.

Boat US initially denied the claim but, after I appealed, did cover a replacement aluminum mast made by Klacko Spars in Canada.  The new mast, of course has no holes drilled it anywhere below the mast joint.

Scott Paist
Piu Mosso
NS-C #186

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" <biank...@VERIZON.NET>
To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:05:29 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted

[Bob McPeek]

Wow!  This is interesting.  I've been told many times in the past that new aluminum masts for the Nonsuch are not available.  What was the cost of the new mast?  $20,000. for a new carbon-fiber is a little steep for me.
     Bob McPeek, Pau Hana, NS30C


**************
Dell Deals: Don’t miss huge summer savings on popular laptops starting at $449. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221770187x1201425153/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215566131%3B37864407%3Bi)

[Mike]

Lloyd:   From what I have read it's not that Carbon Fiber masts are more susceptible to lightning strikes it's that the lightning strikes are more devastating to carbon fiber.  As I recall the reasoning is this. Both Aluminum and Carbon fiber mast are conductors. Both will provide electrical paths to the ground/water in a lightning strike (in a properly grounded boat). It just that aluminum is a much better conductor i.e less resistance. Less resistance to electron flow equals less heat. Carbon Fiber is not as good. Soooo there is more heat built up in a lightning strike in the carbon fiber material. Which tries to expand because of the heat induced by the strike but can't do it fast enough so it shatters and/or cracks. The danger is not when the Carbon Fiber shatters as it should be obvious from the pieces of mast on the deck, It is if it only cracks The damage may not be seen because it is hidden behind the coating applied to the Carbon Fiber masts to protect them from UV rays.  Failure of the mast can come at anytime after that with no indication before hand.    Mike BIANKA 1986 30U   --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Lloyd Robbins <lrob...@QTRLAW.COM> wrote:

From: Lloyd Robbins <lrob...@QTRLAW.COM> Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted

To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 4:36 PM Thank you for the photos of the mast. . You should challenge your insurer .  As a lawyer who deals with insurance claims I would not accept their position. These masts do not fail as a result of ordinary wear and tear.  Insurance companies always start with this position .

I have an older nonsuch . I do not have a mast collar . I have a fitting which is riveted onto the mast. I have been thinking of getting a mast caller but after looking at your pictures I wonder if the collar does not actually make a greater stress point. Are there any experts that can comment on this.

Instead of having a collar could a fitting be bolted through deck  sepreate from mast or would that cause too much strain on the deck.

I once was considering getting a carbon mast. I talked to a rigger friend who has considerable experience  and his one comment was that the carbon mast was more susceptible  to lightening . Can anyone comment.

From: Nonsuch Yacht Owners Discussion List [mailto:NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM] On Behalf Of John Newell

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 10:32 AM To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted

Bob,

I guess part of the cause from looking at your excellent photos is that salt accumulated below the collar over the years permitted electrolosis to reduced the strength of the aluminium below the collar giving you a clean break at that point.  Being close hauled would exert stress at the base of the mast and the time for a weakened mast to break.  Those who tend to over sheet risk premature mast failure apart from sailing on one's beams end at reduced speed and increased leeway.   If I am right,  it would be a good idea for the Nonsuch fleet to ensure the mast is washed thoroughly below the collar and a protective coating applied on a regular basis especially when sailing in salt water.  Rain will wash the mast down to the collar but brine will accumulate under it.  If I am wrong, washing below the collar will do no harm.    Replacing the mast with a carbon fibre spar as you suggest seems to be the logical thing to do in salt water.  I hope the US manufacturer can give you a good price.  Exchange rates should work in your favour, but I doubt that they could supply you with a replacement mast in time for the Around the Island Race.  It would not hurt to ask for your money back or at least allow you to enter next years race.  Seems only fair.   John

----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Illingworth To: John Newell Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 5:31 AM

Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted

John,

Thanks for your message; we were well sheeted in so the end of boom would have been immediately above the starboard aft rail. Bob   From: John Newell Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 1:40 AM To: Bob Illingworth

Subject: Re: Nonsuch Luck de-masted   Bob, I am so sorry to hear it and just before your big event.  Bad Luck.....

[Joe Thompson]

very in depth discussion of happy decision to fit bluewater cruiser with a carbon rig from Hall: includes a detailed argument on lightning from Ben Hall. This particular owner did a very thorough refit and felt that the new carbon stick was the best thing he did:

http://www.morganscloud.com/indepth/inbrpart1.html#lightning

A carbon stick from a builder like Hall or Composite is an excellent choice. While you are at it get them to make you carbon wishbones.

Mike I love your electric engine. If you ever want to sell your boat let me know.

Joe Thompson NS26U "Cato"

[Paul J Chandler]

Mike is correct.

 

In a tragic example some years back, a manufacturer of helicopters leasing rotary wing aircraft to a British aviation company servicing the North Sea oil rigs upgraded the tail rotors on their choppers from magnesium aluminium alloy to carbon fibre in a sincere effort to improve tail rotor performance.

 

They had done all that was required, tests and so forth, to meet stringent FAA code including how carbon fibre would perform with a lightning strike. Unfortunately they underestimated the power of a maximum strike. Eventually Murphy’s Law prevailed. In very inclement weather one day some many miles North of Aberdeen, a helicopter ran into a storm, and the tail rotor was struck with a particularly powerful bolt. The result was the rotor shattered as it could not dissipate the heat, the aircraft lost stability and its fate was sealed. I believe they went back to metal rotors.

 

Carbon fibre is a very poor conductor and would not take to lightning well at all. I think I like my metal mast!

 

Paul

The Enlightenment #338

 

 

 

---

[Barry Michaels]

Paul is not alone in his love of aluminum stick.  This is why I offered an alternative to "going carbon".  I have been hit by lightning in a boat with wooden spars but a good grounding system and nothing serious happened.  I have seen a number of well grounded aluminum masts that have been hit with minimal damage.  On the other hand, I have a friend who shall go unnamed who is sailing right now with a carbon mast that he had to repair due to lightning strike.  He is babying that stick and has noticed various irregularities which he is nervously watching.   

It is really unfortunate that aluminum mast structure was not better known when the early NS's were manufactured.  As for the fleet, I think it is imperative that we start to consider a full tool kit of preventive actions of the type and even further than those recommended by the able Mr Quill.  Without so doing, I am afraid that we will be  reduced to being a bunch of run to carbon Chicken Littles.   Not that I don't like carbon altogether, as if truth be known and I was given a choice, I would probably choose carbon.  But right now I like most in the fleet have aluminum (I have 2 of them).  Just as with the splice fixes,  engineering needs to be put into place to stabilize the bases where the greatest stress levels are now occurring.  

Carbon has it's own logic and that logic must be understood, as West System technical advisor for South Florida in the early 1980's, I was in on various advanced composite materials testing by the Gougeon brothers.  This and well known failures has shown me that there are weaknesses, but not among them is weight savings.  Weight savings and overall reduction of stress is a major benefit, but the are prone to being fried when hit by lightning.  Two other factors strike me (pun intended); 1) while very strong in tension, carbon is weak  in compression and 2) when failure occurs, it is catastrophic.   Net net, there is no perfect world with the exception of the one in our dreams.   All materials, like man and womenkind,  all have some weakness, and as the man says, "ones got to know your (or their) limitations".

Regards to all  (even the carbon loving ones amongst us),

Barry & Brigid Michaels

    NS 36' # 9 Cat Ketch  “Tally-On” (One-of-a-Kind)

    St. Augustine, FL 

On Jun 11, 2009, at 10:47 PM, Paul J Chandler wrote:

Mike is correct.

 

In a tragic example some years back, a manufacturer of helicopters leasing rotary wing aircraft to a British aviation company servicing theNorth Sea oil rigs upgraded the tail rotors on their choppers from magnesium aluminium alloy to carbon fibre in a sincere effort to improve tail rotor performance.

[Pam Romney]

Ouch Bob,

I lost my mast in '07... right after raising the sail.

Thank God no one was hurt.  And you will get thru this.  

The noise and shock of the mast going will stay with you a long time.

Ted Van Dusen made me a carbon fiber mast.  It took nearly 1 year to get my boat back together.

I love Ted and my new mast!  

This too will pass.

Kind regards

Pam

[Allen Perrins]

Hi All

I too have a Dinghy Tow which I have found to be very practical and
well designed. Mine has not had anywhere near the mileage. !

Al

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05:54:00

[Jeff Orlando]

The $$ figures being stated for a carbon rig say that loss of the mast on my 26c would total it. 

Scott,  please describe your experience in getting the aluminum stick from Klacko.  How did you get BoatUS to change their mind?  Also, if possible, the costs involved to replace?  Do you know if they are still offered by Klacko?

Mike stated that an aluminum Nonsuch mast has a "finite life".  What determines the natural life of the mast?  Should we all expect a failure at some point then?

Jeff
26-16 Catbert

[Kristen Posey Mead]

All masts have finite lives.  Most folks have noticed that their masts vibrate under sail, or even at the dock--it's a very visible reminder that masts (even normal sloopy ones) are under cyclical loading patterns.  The cyclical loading patterns are all a part of fatigue life.  While we aren't privy to what their designed fatigue life is, I can't imagine a reason it would be less than the design life of the boat.  Which, the only thing on our boats that is tired is us and possibly the paint, it sure ain't the hulls themselves.

However, a lack of maintenance can affect fatigue life, as can the addition of equipment to the mast.  That's where owner responsibility comes in.  The designers and engineers did their best way back when to keep us safe when we go out and play, now it's our turn to keep up our end of the bargain.

[Bob Illingworth]

All,

Thanks for all who responded to my original posting.  I now have some very high resolution pictures of the stub of Nonsuch Luck's mast; let me know if you would like me to send them to you by e-mail.  As to my claim on the insurance company, I will pursue them as far as possible.

[Arthur Langley]

On 6/15/09 12:07 PM, "Jeff Orlando  CATBERT  26C  16" <jeff.o...@gmail.com> wrote:

The $$ figures being stated for a carbon rig say that loss of the mast on my 26c would total it. 

Scott,  please describe your experience in getting the aluminum stick from Klacko.  How did you get BoatUS to change their mind?  Also, if possible, the costs involved to replace?  Do you know if they are still offered by Klacko?

Mike stated that an aluminum Nonsuch mast has a "finite life".  What determines the natural life of the mast?  Should we all expect a failure at some point then?

---

Fair and important questions from Jeff that I think deserve a general response.


All I recall knowing about, and I’m VERY far from all knowing, is the lower section of the aluminum masts normally being where the failures occur

KLACKO Spars:
The quote in 2008 from KLACKO for a 30 spar all re-rigged after the addition of an entirely new aluminum lower section was CDN $ 7,500.

The quote at the same time for a complete new aluminum mast for a 30 was CDN $ 13,000.

Lower section only or whole mast . . . the 22s and 26s would be less. 33s and 36s would be more.

Was then also told KLACKO has made a practice in recent years of keeping the components of at least one 30 spar in inventory. Don’t know and did not ask if this was so for 26s or other models. It thus only takes days, not weeks, to assemble and deliver a mast or rebuild one, but “how long” depends upon how busy they were with other work when you call as to when they can start.


Finite Life:
Any piece of metal has a finite number of times it will take flexing before developing stress cracks and then failing.


Take a paper clip and bend it back and forth a lot of times. Eventually that little piece of steel will  1) get quite warm where it’s bending  2) start developing stress cracks where bending  3) break in two.

If you count the number of bendings it took before it broke that is the number of cycles of flexing THAT specific paper clip could tolerate before failing. You’ve just done what engineers call destructive testing. Do this with a hundred paper clips, average out the number of bends it takes to break each and divide by two (the “fudge factor”). An engineer will tell you the resultant number calculated is how many times that kind of paper clip can be bent safely without breaking. I’m being a little simplistic but not too much so.

You’ve established the expected Mean Time Before Failure ... or properly ... Mean Time To Failure, the MTTF when flexing in that manner for THAT type of paper clip.


The MTTF for the well designed and robustly built aluminum Nonsuch mast is a long, long, long time IF you take proper care of the mast.

Proper care would include 1) not letting the mast flex needlessly in the wind all season (which is a bit like bending that paper clip) when not being sailed . . . by tensioning the rig with a preventer line from the port quarter (launches come to the strb’d side – use strb’d qtr if you dock port to) to the boom end and the sheet made down hard against the preventer and the topping lift  2) removing the mast from the boat once a year and having the mast CAREFULLY inspected by someone knowledgeable and capable, if that’s not you  3) not having any unneeded, or improperly made, or improperly located holes in the mast   4) keeping the metal as clean, protected, and corrosion free as is reasonably possible  

By way of one example . . . when we brought expensive racing machines back to the lakes from even just a week or two of sailing on the east coast or down south (be it a dinghy or 50’+), we would repeatedly rinse the interior of the mast section and boom alternating a couple of times with white vinegar in a garden sprayer then a water hose to get rid of the very fine layer of salt that is the primary agent that fosters metal corrosion in masts.


Do you thoroughly rinse out your mast with a hose several times after you take it down after a season in a salt water environment? Do you take the time to to let it drain and dry thoroughly? Do you take out the masthead sheave, lightly “polish” the sides of the sheave box and the sheave with wet 1000 wet sand paper, clean-wax-buff these surfaces, then lubricate the bearing pin and replace the sheave?  Do you carefully inspect all openings anywhere in the section including holes with fasteners in or through them? Do you wash, rinse and then wax the exterior of mast and boom before wrapping and racking for the winter layup? Do you even get around to wrapping the mast and boom in a plastic sleeve and seal the ends? Do you strip off the halyard leaving a messenger in it’s place, soak the halyard in 50/50 vinegar/water for a day, and then wash it and your other running rigging in a big tumble washer at a laundromat before making them up to be dried and stored? Very, VERY few do any of these things but these are all things that are good, easy, and cheap to do for any aluminum rig and for your running rigging . . . particularly for rigs in salt water environments.

Yes, all the above is lots of extra work for most people. Yes, all the above is a pain in the butt. However, a broken mast is way, way more painful and extraordinarily more work and cost than all the above.

Yes, at some point everything made by man . . . nature and time will unmake The better they are cared for . . . the longer man made items last.


Should you EXPECT your mast to fail some time in the next decade or more?

IMO not if it is in good condition now and you always maintain and inspect it well ANNUALLY.

Maybe yes if you just hope for the best and do too little or nothing.


How many years do you think a brand new car would run without any care and maintenance? How about a 20-30 year old car? Most cars of that age that are used on a regular basis need more annual care and attention than new cars.

It’s the same with sailboats.


After considering such dismal possibilities, I thank goodness it’s sunny here and there’s now a good breeze.  Ciao.  :)

Cheers,

Arthur Langley
BEAR AWAY  30C  54

1980    BEAR AWAY  30C  14 1979    BROADWAY  30U  426 1987
Brunswick ME                                   South Baymouth ON                      Toronto ON  Royal Canadian YC

New Hampshire & Maine Fleet     

Lake Huron Fleet                             West-Lake Ontario Fleet

tel 860.415.0502       cel  207.459.6410       tel.  207.449.1980
   
"It isn't that life ashore is distasteful to me.  But life at sea is better."    Sir Francis Drake

 

[Brooks Bridges]

One thought I had is airplane wings.  I suspect they go through orders of magnitude more stress cycles than our masts do.  So I'm inclined to think it may be more likely corrosion or area sailed or ??? than just stress cycles.  May pay us to chip in for a very precise determination of the cause of the recent failure.  I'd happily put in some bucks as a sort of reassurance thing.  If it turns out to be something avoidable, or unique to how a particular boat was used, all of us could ultimately relax a bit. Brooks Bridges SOLITUDE 30U 290 Cambridge, MD --- On Wed, 6/17/09, Arthur Langley <arthur_...@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

From: Arthur Langley <arthur_...@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: KLACKO & finite mast life To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

[Phlzfan]

My mast was built in 1983 and was one that had many holes drilled into
it, especially and unfortunately, drilled at the deck level, the level
of greatest stress on mast flex. Mine had a collar bolted to the mast,
and, the point of failure, a hole drilled through and through right at
deck level that held a bolt apparently designed to keep the mast from
rotating. It was these holes that tore into 3-inch slots when the mast
twisted under the torque of tacking. The real failure, I think, was the
shearing of the bolts holding the octagonal piece to bottom of the
mast. This allowed the mast to twist in the first place. Without
attempting to remove these bolts with the mast unstepped, simple
inspection with the spar in the boat did not reveal any bolt failure
(the heads were where they usually are!).

As to avoiding flex during the winter, I often left the boat in the
water over the winter, hauling and painting it during August, the
doldrums here on the Chesapeake. This allows the boat to roll in the
wind, taking stress of the spar.

Klacko had one blank for a lower section on hand, but that one was
spoken for. My new lower section was made and took a few weeks. The
new mast has NO holes in it, and the bottom octagonal piece appears to
have been braized on. Very very beautifully-made stainless collars are
fastened around the mast, and the two through-bolts holding the upper
and lower sections together have been cleverly placed so as to avoid
linear stress and also hold the wishbone hangers. The sail track is
affixed using stainless hoops that go around the stick. No bolts or rivets.

It cost me US $1000 each way to ship the mast to Klacko, and, as usual,
about $1000 each to unstep and re-step the mast. Klacko replaced the
halyard sheave and added a second halyard and sheave. I had a Strong
Track, and this was also replaced by Klacko.

Total cost to me was about US$12,000 of which Boat US paid $8500, the
amount charged by Klacko. I appealed the initial decision (not to cover
at all) and quoted Mike Quill (as usual, an invaluable asset) in a
letter to the insurance company. They actually sent an adjuster to
Klacko and agreed to pay for the replacement.

Hope this helps,

Scott Paist
Piu Mosso
NS-C #186

>
>

[Joe Valinoti]

Thanks for the info, Scott, but why on earth would it cost $1,000 to unstep and then another thou to restep the mast as it is less then a hour for each process??

Joe Valinoti
IL GATTO  NS30U  #221
Oriental, NC 

                  ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

----- Original Message -----

From: Phlzfan

To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

[Jeff Orlando]

Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies.  Maybe it wouldn't be totaled after all.  I hadn't considered that just the bottom section could be replaced.  That makes it especially important to salvage the wreckage rather than cutting it all loose if disaster strikes.

On the matter of life expectancy of a mast.  The Nonsuch mast is a lot like the metal street light poles that are common.  You don't see them randomly falling down due to fatigue.  I wonder if manufacturers of those could supply data that could be applied to the mast? 

I think I'll just enjoy the summer & reef sooner rather than later.

Cheers

Jeff
26-16 Catbert
Olympia, WA

[Alan Bennett-Steward]

I repeat Joe's question, a thousand bucks ?.   It costs me $CAD75.00 each way and the mast comes down each and every fall.

 

Alan Steward

30C # 144, MagnifiCat

[Joe Thompson]

yards who don't know our boats and do t and m billing can find that they have thrown 2-3 guys plus a machine for several hours....thats how you get big yard bills for stepping and unstepping esp. in places where  most boat owners dont unstep every year

Joe Thompson NS26U 192 "Cato" Annapolis

[John Foster]

In the San Francisco Bay area, only a very small percentage of the boats on the water year round, ( even those which are dry sailed) have their masts pulled each year. I just went through the mast pulling exercise tis week for my Nonsuch 22 to replace my mast head sheave.

The quotes from the three nearby yards to my yacht club included the cost of two riggers at $90.00 each per hour, and crane charges each time for a total out, and back in the next day, of an estimated $600.00 US

Since I am an expat Canadian with the first 30 of my 60+ years of boat owning in the annual haul out great white north, mast pulling was familiar enough for me to use a couple of family and friends to use my local yacht club dry sail haul out crane at lower low tide  to be able to pick up the mast at the balance point, at a crane and salary cost of gratitude to those involved.

Your mileage may vary.

John Foster
Blueberry, 22, 48

[John iscaro]

Winter storage here in CT at Brewers with mast down runs about $2K.   Thats hauled,  power washed, unstep and step and dipped in spring?    So you can say,  1K to pull mast.

--
John Iscaro / Chief Engineer
Greenwich Country Club
203-869-1000 W
203-627-2864  C

[Joe Thompson]

I paid similar $ ( a bit more total) here on the Chesapeake at a yard where there are other Nonsuches, but new yard staff this year. Not proud of it, really could use the cash, but just by way of answering how it is possible. Matter of nfact I think I still owe the yard some money

[Gilbert Deming]

In Wisconsin at the Southport Marina they charge $8 per foot.  So in and out is $16 per foot.

--
Have a nice day,

Gilbert Deming
262-652-8929

[Phlzfan]

75 bucks???  Ok, that's it ... I'm sailing to Canada this Fall!  :-)

Scott Paist
Piu Mosso

[Kenneth A. Verhaeren]

Hello Everyone,

For those of you who are interested in following my progress in the Solo Chicago - Mackinac Challenge I've listed the site below.
You can also find it at the Great Lakes Singlehanded Soceity website.

http://race.ionearth.com/2009/glss/allmac/ 

http://www.solosailor.org/



Ken Verhaeren
"Kismet"  30U  #398
Chicago, Il

 

---

Dell Days of Deals! June 15-24 - A New Deal Everyday!

[Bill Spencer]

We are lucky at our yacht club, since we own our own travel-lift and
do our own haulouts and launches. The travel lift has a hydraulic
boom and cable for stepping masts. Years ago when we had more wooden
boats at the club than we do now, it was expected that the wooden
boats would have to sit in the slings for several hours or even
longer with their hulls in the water so they could "soak up".

Most of the wooden boats were power boats, so the sailors argued that
if the power boats could tie up the travel lift for soaking up
without any additional charge, then it should be OK for the sailboats
to tie up the travel lift for stepping or unstepping their mast, also
at no extra charge. The Board agreed and that is the way the
members' fees were set up. Of course, now there aren't very many
wooden boats left in the club, but the fees still stand and so the
cost for pulling the mast every year is zero. Of course, the owners
do all the work themselves, except for the steward who drives the travel lift.

(I only tell this story outside the club, for fear of causing a
review of the fees. <G>)

Bill Spencer
LIONHEART, NS30U #352 Hyde Park, NY

[Jon Matthews]

Last year I was shocked when I was quoted $1500 for mast removal in Florida. 

 

I am accustomed in Toronto to removing and stepping my mast "without charge" at our club.  

It only takes a half hour for a few people, and the crane is sitting waiting to be used. 

 

When I have asked at local marinas, the prices quoted have been a small fraction of Floridas.

 

Jon Matthews N30U

 

---
From: Alan Bennett-Steward
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 8:28 AM

Subject: Re: KLACKO & finite mast life

[Joseph L. Tierney]

I have heard that Klacko can not supply a mast for a NS33 or a NS36,
but Wiggers can supply them. They are delivered by truck and the return
label on the container says The American Flagpole Company in
southwestern Virginia.

The above is all hearsay, except for the label, which is first-hand
observation.

Joe Tierney Allegro NS33 #64 Annapolis, MD

[John F Grainger]

Me too, gonna just reef earlier, sail upright. and sleep better at
night.
Less wind age, point better, and maintain probably same speed over
ground
Plus act like a gentleman sailor.

But I am prepping for Tomorrows Lake Ontario Short Handed,-------PCYC to
Youngstown.

So I might have to wait for the conservative sailing.
I sail single handed.
Who else is going?
And if not, why not, best organised sailing anywhere

John F Grainger
Hope& Glory
Nonsuch 33 #16

-----Original Message-----
From: Nonsuch Yacht Owners Discussion List

[mailto:NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM] On Behalf Of Joseph L. Tierney
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 8:53 AM
To: NONS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: KLACKO & finite mast life

[Thor Powell]

We have a gin pole at the club and hire cranes for haul out.... no charge for the Gin Pole and we spend $100 each way for haul launch.
We rebuilt the pole this fall... cost about $4000 CA for parts, member ;labour built it.

This link shows the work and raising.

  

2009/6/18 Bill Spencer <wjsp...@attglobal.net>

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[Thor Powell]

We have a gin pole at the club and hire cranes for haul out.... no charge for the Gin Pole and we spend $100 each way for haul /  launch.

We rebuilt the pole this fall... cost about $4000 CA for parts, member ;labour built it.

This link shows the work and raising.

http://picasaweb.google.com/cedarislandyachtclub/JimPole2009?feat=directlink

  

2009/6/18 Bill Spencer <wjsp...@attglobal.net>

We are lucky at our yacht club, since we own our own travel-lift and do our own haulouts and launches.  The travel lift has a hydraulic boom and cable for stepping masts.  Years ago when we had more wooden boats at the club than we do now, it was expected that the wooden boats would have to sit in the slings for several hours or even longer with their hulls in the water so they could "soak up".

Most of the wooden boats were power boats, so the sailors argued that if the power boats could tie up the travel lift for soaking up without any additional charge, then it should be OK for the sailboats to tie up the travel lift for stepping or unstepping their mast, also at no extra charge.  The Board agreed and that is the way the members' fees were set up.  Of course, now there aren't very many wooden boats left in the club, but the fees still stand and so the cost for pulling the mast every year is zero.  Of course, the owners do all the work themselves, except for the steward who drives the travel lift.

(I only tell this story outside the club, for fear of causing a review of the fees. <G>)


Bill Spencer
LIONHEART, NS30U #352 Hyde Park, NY

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