Nonsuch Sail Size - Is Larger Better?

[Bill Cunningham]

Catnap gets a new sail this Spring. I have decided on the loft. The
only question is whether to go with a larger radical cut 620 sq ft
PERF(sp?) sail or stick with the Class standard cross cut 540 sq ft
sail. Another Nonsuch in my yacht club went with the larger sail last
year. I've had the opportunity to both sail on the boat as well as
see her sailing against larger sloops in our club AND WINNING, even
pulling away when close hauled.

Anyone else have experience with a larger sail (does the later version
of the 30 use a 620 sail as I have seen that size before?)? Pros and
cons (cons...other than the every other year INA race where this sail
would not be permitted)? I have a class sail that is in rather good
shape that could be used for those occasions. The sail was generously
provided by another member in exchange for a good (trust he thought it
good) bottle of Whisky.

I expect Botts and Jack to voice some of the opposition to the larger
sail. :-)

Bill Cunningham

S/V Catnap 30U #358

[Jon Matthews]

Concerning sail size, I would give different advice to a
sailor in San Diego Bay (go big) as opposed to
San Francisco Bay (standard with lots of reef points).

I think that a Nonsuch 30 can handle the larger sail
in Toronto's summer when daysailing or club racing,
but should stick to standard with lots of reef points
in Kingston particularly if cruising for long periods.

If you plan to club race in light to moderate winds
then you may enjoy the greater horsepower.

But I do not know your winds in Bridgeport, CT.
I think your intended purpose (esp wind) matters.

Jon Matthews 30U Toronto

[Allen Ames]

IMHO, the Nonsuch 30 will benefit by the largest possible sail in most sailing areas.  I think you will find that its sail area/displacement ration is smaller than that of the 26 or 33.  The 324 (the newest 30's) actually have a taller rig than the old 30.
 

Allen Ames

---

From: Bill Cunningham <catnap....@yahoo.com>
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 3:48:16 PM

Subject: Nonsuch Sail Size - Is Larger Better?

[Mark Powers]

The sail area and sail area/displacement ratios on the fleet are as
follows: 22 - 306 - 16.7, 26 - 420 - 16.1, 30 -540 - 17, 324 -684 -
21.5, 33 - 669 -17.3, 354 - 783 - 20.3 and 36 - 742 -18. I don't have
enough information on the 260 to do the calculation for it. The
ballast ratios are 22 - 36%, 26 - 32.25, 30 - 39.13, 324 - 36.87, 33 -
39.41, 354 - 39.41 and 36 - 38.24.

Smarter people than I, can comment on the what would be better for
your boat.

Mark Powers & Nesta Davies
La Reina 26C
Burrard Civic Marina
Vancouver, B.C.

On Jan 27, 2:54 pm, Allen Ames <allen.ame...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> IMHO, the Nonsuch 30 will benefit by the largest possible sail in most sailing
> areas.  I think you will find that its sail area/displacement ration is smaller
> than that of the 26 or 33.  The 324 (the newest 30's) actually have a taller rig
> than the old 30.
>  Allen Ames
>
> ________________________________

> From: Bill Cunningham <catnap.nons...@yahoo.com>

[Kristen Posey Mead, Cascade Yacht Works]

I'd caution that the original designwork and engineering calculations
were probably done with something like the Class standard sail. You
add more sail area, and forces will go up. Not necessarily a deal
killer, but technically you would be cutting into whatever Ellis'
margins were. I am curious as to whether this would have an effect on
your insurance policy, should you have a spar failure.

[Joe Valinoti]

Interesting observation, Kristen!

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221 (1984)
Sea Harbour Yacht Club
Oriental, NC

 

  

 

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----- Original Message -----

From: Kristen Posey Mead, Cascade Yacht Works

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

[Bill Cunningham]

Someone, off post, informed me that a NS 30 class sail could have a
legal max size of 644 sq ft!! Guess the devil is in the details.

[Allen Ames]

The measurements for the Nonsuch sails are in the Roster.  Read them!!!!

 

It is obvious that any race which is sailed under the Nonsuch Class Rules would require that the sail conforms to these rules in every way.  Very simply: if your saikl does not conforn to the class rules, you ain't a Nonsuch!

 

Anyone who wishes to sail as a "one-off" in a handicap race should be able to use any sail which conforms to the rules of whatever measurement rule is being used and should have his sail measured. 

 

Allen Ames

 

[Bill Cunningham]

Allen,

By Roster, do you mean the class PDF in www.nonsuch.org? if so, I
read them before my posting. If not, where are they?

The pdf states that the sail maker must furnish a letter indicating
that the sail is within class standards. Assume having this
documentation ends all this Nonsuch nonsense as to being a Nonsuch or
not?

[Allen Ames]

Page 72 of the PDF "Class Rules" (on the web site) includes the relevant sail measurements. ("INTERNATIONAL NONSUCH ASSOCIATION SPECIFICATIONS: 1. SAIL PLANS: MAXIMUM DIMENSIONS") Note that there are NO rules that specify batten length.  These rules are also in the "Yearbook" or Roster which is published annually (usually). [I have attempted to attach the document to this email.]

 

The sail number could probably be "finessed" by a request for a variance from a race committee, although it sure makes it harder for them to identify the boat.

• If you have your Hull# on the sail, remember that other sizes of Nonsuch may have the same #. Hence, the requirement to include the length. The alternative is to have a number assigned by your national yacht racing union.  The latter is required by many race committees so that they can identify the boats.
• Any number on a sail could be a major safety factor, making it easier for rescuers to identify a particular boat in distress.

A certificate from your sailmaker that your sail is legal is certainly a start, although I am sure that it could be protested if someone questioned it -- as could ANY measurement or other requirement on the boat.

 

The intention of the rules is to create as level a playing field as possible as simply as possible.  Check out the rules for other one-design classes and you will find them much more specific and "nit-picking".  If you are a true "mug-hunter", methinks you probably wouldn't have picked a Nonsuch to begin with.

 

Allen Ames

 

[Bill Cunningham]

Allen,

Firstly, I want to thank Jon Ayers, Graeme Hayward and you for all the
time and effort you have put into setting up these rules. Trying to
do anything with Nonsuch skippers can sometimes be compared to trying
to herd chickens. The Rules state it well on the First Page, with
"The intent of these rules is not to exclude boats, but to provide
sufficient uniformity between boats that skippers and crews will
perceive competition between yachts to be a fair test of sailing
skills."

Yes, we are singing off the same sheet of music (a.k.a. Rules.pdf),
although I admit that the four sail measurements appear to allow for
some room on the overall square footage of the sail. And, yes, someone
could protest even a certification that the sail meets class
standards. I just have to think of Obama and his Hawaii birth
certificate (but that is a whole different subject).

My problem, simply put, is that I am going to be spending thousands of
dollars on a new sail. I want to get it right. As I have not
skippered my own boat at an INA race, I know not the difference
between mortal and venal sail sins. So, I am asking questions,
especially since some of the rules appear to be routinely violated.
My original message morphed from a topic asking questions about
benefits of potential size of sail to whether or not I was a Nonsuch.

As to battens, you may have misread my statement. My comment was not
on the length as it is clear that size doesn't matter. The comment
deals with the orientation of the lettering, in that it MUST be
parallel to the battens. My original sail does not which, if I were
to ever win, would probably cause someone to protest that I am not a
Nonsuch.

I think sailing should be fun; if I were into competitive sailing, I
would not have ever considered a Nonsuch. I love the boat for what
it is, a wonderful platform to cruise in comfort with my wife.

And, lastly, what is a "mug-hunter"? That is a new one for me.

Bill Cunningham

S/V Catnap 30U #358

On Jan 30, 8:23 am, Allen Ames <allen.ame...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Page 72 of the PDF "Class Rules" (on the web site) includes the relevant sail
> measurements. ("INTERNATIONAL NONSUCH ASSOCIATION SPECIFICATIONS: 1. SAIL PLANS:
> MAXIMUM DIMENSIONS") Note that there are NO rules that specify batten length. 
> These rules are also in the "Yearbook" or Roster which is published annually
> (usually). [I have attempted to attach the document to this email.]
>
> The sail number could probably be "finessed" by a request for a variance from a
> race committee, although it sure makes it harder for them to identify the boat.

>         * If you have your Hull# on the sail, remember that other sizes of Nonsuch may

> have the same #. Hence, the requirement to include the length. The alternative
> is to have a number assigned by your national yacht racing union.  The latter is
> required by many race committees so that they can identify the boats.

>         * Any number on a sail could be a major safety factor, making it easier for

> rescuers to identify a particular boat in distress.
> A certificate from your sailmaker that your sail is legal is certainly a start,
> although I am sure that it could be protested if someone questioned it -- as
> could ANY measurement or other requirement on the boat.
>  
> The intention of the rules is to create as level a playing field as possible as
> simply as possible.  Check out the rules for other one-design classes and you
> will find them much more specific and "nit-picking".  If you are a true
> "mug-hunter", methinks you probably wouldn't have picked a Nonsuch to begin
> with.
>  
> Allen Ames
>

>  Rules.pdf
> 135KViewDownload

[Lionheart]

I have noticed that the copy of the Nonsuch racing class rules that is
posted on the web site is not current. Although I don't believe there
is any significant difference between the copy on the web site and the
rules published in the 2010 Registry, I have asked our webmaster to
update the web site with the latest copy. That should be done within
a day or two.

Aside from that, I can testify that at the last few Nonsuch Rendezvous
events, at least, it has been the understanding that the INA race
officials have had the last say regarding participant qualification.
That is to say, deviations from the published rules were at the
discretion of the INA race committee, and the objective was to
maximize participation in the races. The purpose of the rules has
always been to provide a fair and even competition, but with aging
boats and changing equipment, compromise is sometimes called for.

Bill Spencer
INA Secretary

[Bob]

Bill,
Wouldn't a better metaphor be 'Herding a clowder of cats'?

Bob Illingworth
Nonsuch Luck 30U #367 Sail No K1262T
Brighton UK, Cruising area the Solent and the English Channel

-----Original Message-----
From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Cunningham
Sent: 31 January 2011 01:46
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group
Subject: Re: Nonsuch Sail Size - Is Larger Better?