Engine replacement or Rebuild

[mesay...@gmail.com]

In 2018, I killed my Westerbeke 52 on my Nonsuch 36 and posted on the discussion group about how I did it. That engine had about 3800 hours on it.

I had checked with everyone I knew about their experiences with boat yards in my area and the one with the fewest complaints was King Harbor Marine Center in Redondo Beach, California.

We sailed the boat up there and had it hauled and first had to determine if the engine was really dead. So we ordered an oil filter adaptor from Westerbeke and it had to be fabricated in Taiwan for $750. That took about a month. The part was installed and the engine was actually dead. Wasted $750. She who must be obeyed advised me that the maximum that we could spend on engine repairs or replacement was $35,000. We would sell the boat if it cost more than that.

The Yard assessed the situation and said it would cost $15,000 to rebuild the old engine and $25,000 for a new engine installed. We decided that a new engine was a better buy as we intend to keep the boat til we no longer need a boat.

Westerbeke has a business model pursuant to which orders are placed to a local distributor who conveys the order to a regional distributor who conveys the order to headquarters in Taunton, Massachusetts. I was present in the King Harbor office when the owner of the Yard called the local distributor. The owner told the distributor that the engine was a Westerbeke 52 with a Hurth V drive transmission and he  asked if a new engine replacement would be a drop-in installation requiring very little other than connections to existing lines and hoses. He was assured it would be a drop in. 

We kept calling and calling the distributor and he kept saying it was being made and we would have it soon. Finally in March 2019, we were told the engine would be shipped in a few weeks. Soon thereafter, I had a dream that they were going to send the wrong engine. I called Westerbeke in Taunton the next day and was told that the engine they were sending was a Westerbeke 55D straight drive. I told them that was the wrong engine and it would not work at all. They said it would be a whole lot more money but I was stuck. Boat in the yard for months and no boat to use and there was nothing I could do. I did not realize it but Westerbeke intended to keep the engine instruments package I had purchased for ransom to get the extra money.

We finally got the engine and it was a 55D which did not fit all the hookups and required thousands of dollars of extra parts and labor to get it installed including motor mountings and exhaust and many other things. And I had to pay the extra money for their mistake in not making a V drive engine.  And it took from October to May to get the engine.

It was a horrible experience. The only saving grace was that the Boat Yard said it was not my fault that Westerbeke was so bad and they kept to the quoted price of $25,000 for the engine installed. They were really honorable The install required lots of extra expensive parts and lots of extra labor.

The bottom line is that the engine is really quite good. It is powerful and economical and has been no trouble.

My advice to anyone is to get quotes from different manufacturers. Yanmar, Universal, Beta etc. Try and get a firm price up front if you can. That is hard to do. My experience with Westerbeke was not very good and I would only deal with them for parts I cannot get elsewhere. Their system is ripe for miscommunications and delay.

Phil Levine, MeSays, Nonsuch 36, San Pedro, California

[Ward Woodruff]

Chad, I have some experience with your pain.

I offer the following based on my business experience and my experience as a do it yourself boat owner.  You'll see that even when well informed, the decision you make may in retrospect may have been poor.

Some background:

I recently sold my heating and air conditioning service and replacement business.  We had 44 employees when I sold the business.  Most of our work was directly with homeowners.

I have continuously owned sailboats since the late 1970s.  The Nonsuch 33, purchased in 2017, is the first boat large enough to require storage at a boat yard.

While in business I spent a lot of money working with consultant groups in order to improve our business practices and customer relations skills.  One of the skills we learned was to offer a customer all of the available options upfront so that the customer could make his own informed decision about how to proceed.  For instance, the customer has a 15 year old furnace that needs a $1000 repair. We would proceed by providing the following information.  If he makes that repair, what is the likely hood  that the furnace will need another repair in the near future and then at some point after that, the furnace will need to be replaced anyway.  We then offered more than one replacement scenario with firm prices.  It was then the customer's choice as to what solution he desired, repair or a replacement.  I believe this process improved customer satisfaction.

The boatyard where my boat resides is operated by two brothers who are at retirement age who took over the business from their parents.  These guys are easy to get along with and frugal.  They counseled me to  leave my engine as is and to run it until it breaks.  

It is human nature to want to take what looks like the easy path such as replacing the oil pan on a 30+ year old engine.  I made a similar choice in the fall of 2018.  In this case it was all my responsibility.

My Universal M35V had what I interpreted as borderline oil pressure when the engine was fully warmed up.  My do it yourself attitude said "the engine internals are likely at the wear point that if I do a full rebuild on the motor, the motor once rebuilt, will last a long time".  

I spent quite a bit of time researching parts availability for a rebuild and looking at a possible replacement with a BETA 30.  My conclusion was I have all winter and it will be fun to do a rebuild. I spent a lot of time on this project figuring out what was needed for the rebuild and where to get the stuff.  I think a boatyard working on a particular vessel may be in a similar circumstance as boats, unlike cars, are somewhat unique.  Look at our Nonsuchs, there are a lot of differences in motors and transmission even among the fleet of 30s. 

I went to my local friendly automotive machine shop to get them aligned with my project.  I wanted to make the old engine like new.   We replaced the cylinder liners, reconditioned the piston rods with new wrist pin bushings and re-rounding of the piston rod big ends.  The crankshaft was ground one size under. The valve seats were resurfaced.  New pistons, piston rings, connecting rod bearings, main bearings, valves, camshaft, tappets, engine water pump, raw water pump, oil pump, oil pressure relief valve were installed.  

The oil pan had significant corrosion pits over a portion of the exterior of the bottom of the pan.  A new pan was not available.  I sand blasted the pan and coated the pitted area with JB Weld before repainting.  I believe engines with v-drives sling seawater from the stuffing box onto the pan bottom resulting in the pan corrosion. 

The engine rebuild kit came from Kumar Brothers in NJ.  Those parts were made in India.  A couple of parts came from Kubota (camshaft, and oil pressure relief valve).  I looked long and hard for the camshaft and found the last one available for this old engine.  

I disassembled and reassembled the engine.  When reassembling I used Plastigage to verify proper oil clearance on all of the main and rod bearings and I used a feeler gage to verify proper ring gap.

With the reassembled engine bolted to a wooden skid in my driveway, with a temporary battery and fuel supply the engine started right up and ran great.  The oil pressure was improved.  The engine was reinstalled into he boat and the boat was launched as scheduled that spring.

After about 10 hours of engine use, I found oil in the bilge.  The oil had come from the engine crankcase breather tube.  I guess the rings were having difficulty seating.  I added an oil catch can to the line and routed the line to the engine air intake.  No more oil in the bilge and very little oil accumulating in the oil catch can.

The engine now has three full summers of use totaling slightly over 300 hours.

On the way to the boat yard for the winter and while traveling in tandem with a friend in his NS30U, he ran his boat up on a sandbar. We pulled him off after running our motor at full throttle for several minutes.  After we were on our way again, I noticed a slight rapping sound and reduced oil pressure. I did not say anything.  In a few minutes, my wife said, "what is that noise?"  Her remark was confirmation that the engine has a problem.  My friend towed us the rest of the way to the boatyard.  We did the tow so that the engine would for sure be able to dock the boat and get the boat to the travellift well.

The engine is now on the salon floor under the companionway awaiting the yard crane to pluck it and place it on my trailer.  I have removed the head and the cylinder walls look OK.  The bearings will have to wait until I get the motor home.

In the meantime, I have been looking at a BETA replacement again.  I am about ready to order a Beta 35 with two 120A alternators set up for external regulation, optional control panel with gauges, high rise exhaust elbow with crossover to starboard, water heater taps and and remote header tank with pressure cap.  I'm going to bolt on the existing V-drive transmission which has 300 hours on new clutch discs and seals.  If the transmission dies later, I will be inconvenienced  but will not have wasted any significant cash (today's thought process).  A 2000 Watt true sine wave marine certified inverter/charger with all the required disconnects and fusing and four group 31 Firefly Carbon Foam batteries are also in the works.

The Beta 35 lines up pretty well with the existing engine beds.  I believe I need to increase the engine bed height by about an inch.  The existing spacing at 16" is good.  

My engine space has not had any real ventilation.  There are two 3" cowl vents on the side of the coaming but as set up they do not really provide any benefit as far as cooling the engine space is concerned.  I think a hot engine space may be partly to blame on the demise of my engine.  To correct the ventilation I plan to install two 250 CFM blowers connected to the existing 3" cowl vents.  One blower will move air through a 6" duct to low on the V drive end of the engine.  The second fan will simply be connected to the second cowl vent and will exhaust air from high in the engine space.  This setup,  in conjunction with the air removed from the engine space by the engine's air intake, will make the engine space a negative pressure in relation to the cabin.  This will cause air to be pulled from the cabin, through the slatted teak sole forward of the engine access, further cooling the space around the engine.  The blowers will run when the engine switch is on and I might add a time delay relay so the blowers remain on for a period after the engine is shut down.

Summer 2022 cruising, here we come.

I'm putting significant cash into a 33 year old boat constructed with a balsa cored hull and deck.  When I am done with this project, over the course of my ownership, the boat will have had the following upgrades:

Repair of the aluminum deck collar (partners), replacement of acrylic lenses in all ports and hatches, new batteries (second high tech set about to be purchased), new autopilot electronics, added radar, added AIS transceiver, significant rewiring, new lifelines, two sails, rebuilt engine, rebuilt transmission, new aluminum fuel tank, new carbon fiber mast courtesy of insurance company, new motor and other items I've failed to mention. 

Will we be looking at re-coring decks later?

Oh, what a hole in the water into which to throw money.  I do like to cruise and race.  I'm following what my brain tells me to do with the available information.

Maybe a lot newer boat?  Problem is that would not be a Nonsuch.

Ward Woodruff

N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

[Joe Valinoti]

Just for info, Ward, the noise you heard after the towing, is probably a rod knock.  This should not happen and if it was due to overheating, the alarm should have gone off prior to damage. To determine that, one can crack the injector hose on each cylinder and when the noise stops, you’ve found the appropriate cylinder.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

Well retired mechanic
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[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

What a story, Ward. Good grief. I have no hard diesel experience to back me up on the following but, at this point in time, at this point in your life, I would treat myself to a re-power and kiss that old engine goodbye as you deserve not to worry about "what's next" with your engine. You've followed the advice of the 2 bothers and you've run your engine until it broke ..... again.

Maybe enough is enough. Yanmar engines are terrific. They are very reliable and aren't cheap to buy or to fix. Availability of parts can be an issue. But, (as I've said before) the entire UK runs the very popular line of BETA engines in tens of thousands (or more) of 15 to 25-ton narrowboats every day. They run and run and run, day in and out. Apparently, they are well-designed for maintenance and, I think, use Kubota blocks. And, many of these poor narrowboats spend their lives being driven (???) by know-nothing hirers who run them at full tilt to get off of the muddy banks of an old canal. (Now how would I know about that ??) A brand-new BETA, running your boat for a hundred hours per summer, would likely last longer than you'll have the boat. As I said, you deserve this kind of worry-free motoring.

Or ......... (gulp) ..... GO ELECTRIC !!!  I think you'd have the biggest electric Nonsuch out there. I don't know of any of the 5 or 6 others who have done this that aren't thrilled with the results. Sure is a quiet and smooth way to motor.

You should be very proud (sincerely) of yourself for re-building your own engine and all that. Treat yourself and your boat. We do all these costly, annoying and challenging things because we love our boats. They are worth it.

Think about it.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Chad Demarest]

Phil and Ward, your stories do make me feel a bit (a tiny bit) better.  It's coincidence and probably meaningless that I live about 45 minutes from the Westerbeke facility in Taunton, but it may have helped me get the correct new oil pan and front (aft on the boat) saddle bracket....there was some question about fitment, and it was easy to measure and re-check.  

I've had the opportunity to talk to a few mechanics over the past few weeks and they seem to like the Beta's.  It seems like when I say Westerbeke everyone says "good engine but..." with various but's.  But...it's hard to get parts (yes)....or....they tend to run hot (huh?)...or....they're hard to work on (this one checks out, at least on my 30C)....etc.  I do think they're good engines.

Phil, I'm slightly jealous of the yard that you worked with.  They sound like honorable people, and impressive.  Ward, you've clearly forgotten more about marine diesel engines than I'll probably ever know, but I like learning and some day maybe I'll be able to fully comprehend the amount of work you put in to your Universal.  That day isn't today, but I'll hold out hope.  I agree with Ernie though in that you've more than earned the piece of mind that comes with a brand spankin' new engine.  My dad is trying to nurse along his 35yo Yanmar as we speak (1986 Tayana 52 aft cockpit).  In May we left St Thomas together bound for Massachusetts, with a working engine.  We were towed into New Bedford at 2AM by Sea-Tow 11 days later with a heavy useless bit of ballast aft of the companionway stairs.  Engine was "fixed" over the summer, and survived the cruise down the coast and was operational upon their departure from Norfolk.  Last week they sailed into English Harbor after an all-too-calm 11 day sail...because they had no motor.  Bullets must sometime be bitten, I think.  My dad likes to do his own work, but at 77 he doesn't fit into compartments like he used to.  (I myself never did).  Ward, you and my father have things in common.  I hope you both enjoy a new engine soon.  Also, that Beta set-up with the new batteries and inverter and dual alternators and ventilation system...it all sounds FANTASTIC.  Best of luck.

Chad Demarest

bluebird

'81 Nonsuch 30C

Sagamore Beach, MA

[Barry Connell]

Hi Ward, 

The acrylic deck lights on my N36 are a mess. This year I’d like to replace them, but I haven’t found a source for the lenses. Did you measure them and have them custom fabricated, or is there a replacement product available somewhere?

Barry Connell (N36 Nocturne) 

[Ward Woodruff]

Hi Joe, 

I thought you might reply. 

Yes, I agree it is a rod knock. I’m quite sure that overheating did not occur during this episode. 

I did have an impeller failure in Mid-September.  On that occasion, we had just completed a race at Block Island.  Started the engine to drop sail.  Once the sail was dropped I noticed unusual exhaust sound.  I looked over the transom and realized there was no water exiting the exhaust.  We were in the inlet channel to Great Salt pond with nothing to do but continue.  Looking at the temp gauge the whole way the temp did not go over 210 and the pressure cap did not release.  We anchored immediately inside Great Salt Pond and shut off the engine. 

I started investigating and quickly ruled out a plugged intake line and strainer.  I opened the water pump and found what looked like a completely intact impeller. 

We restarted the engine and still had no water out the exhaust.  We shut off the engine and reopened the water pump. We then started the engine. The water pump shaft was turning but the impeller was not.  The bond between the metal impeller hub a rubber impeller had failed. 

We installed a new impeller and motored to our weekend slip. 

This event could have been the start of the trouble. 

The yard may bring the crane to the boat on Saturday.  If so, I’ll know what the exact problem is this weekend. 

Ward Woodruff

On Nov 17, 2021, at 4:19 PM, Chad Demarest <chad.d...@gmail.com> wrote:

Phil and Ward, your stories do make me feel a bit (a tiny bit) better.  It's coincidence and probably meaningless that I live about 45 minutes from the Westerbeke facility in Taunton, but it may have helped me get the correct new oil pan and front (aft on the boat) saddle bracket....there was some question about fitment, and it was easy to measure and re-check.  

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[Joe Valinoti]

Funny you should mention Block.  Had to sail in there once with a dead engine on my Cape Dory 28.  There was a period a bunch of years ago that some impellers were less then perfect.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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From: Ward Woodruff

Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 8:42 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Engine replacement or Rebuild

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/1768D8CE-56FD-4807-A797-EF814265F80E%40gmail.com.

[Ward Woodruff]

Hi Barry,

I bought dark gray acrylic of the correct thickness from a plastics supplier on line. Each piece was slightly larger than the lens it would replace. 

To get the new lens the correct size and shape:

Get a router

Get a flush cutting router bit with the bearing on top. 

Stick the old lens to the new acrylic with double sided tape (a piece of tape a couple of inches long in each corner). 

With the old lens on top and the flush cutting bit in the router, trace around the perimeter of the old lens. The bearing on the router bit will follow the perimeter of the old lens producing a perfect copy on the new acrylic. 

Email Atkins & Hoyle the manufacturer of the hatch. They can supply the correct silicone caulking, gasket material and adhesive for the gasket material. 

When you have the lenses out of the frames, you must clean off all of the old silicone sealant. I did that by scraping and sanding. You need to look at your work very closely as the new silicone will not adhere to the old silicone. 

You might find butyl caulking between the old lens and frame.  You will scrape that away as well.  You only use the silicone from A&H to adhere and seal the new lens. 

Let me know if you need any clarification. 

Ward Woodruff

413-847-0620 cell

On Nov 17, 2021, at 8:51 PM, Joe Valinoti <joes...@gmail.com> wrote:



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