Nonsuch 324 questions

[Michael Thorpe]

Hello all,
My name is Mike Thorpe and I have recently purchased Nonsuch 324 #109 formally named Dulcinia now named Brigadoon. I purchased her in St Croix, USVI and have since sailed her to the Jacksonville, FL area. I intend to sail her to New England next spring. In the meantime I have her on the hard to work on over the winter.

To this end I have some questions on the 324 relative to the 30. If you have a 324 or have had one I would appreciate your comments.

I do have the 324's owners manual but couldn't fine the answers to these questions. Also, as a preface I should mention that the previous owner replaced the original carbon fiber boom with an aluminum one made by Mike Quill Yacht rigging in St. Catharines, Ontario.

My 1st question concerns the topping lift. In looking at the 30 there is a block and tackle arrangement at the boom end of the topping lift but not on my 324. I could certainly use the mechanical advantage that a 3 part block and tackle arrangement would provide and would like to know if this was part of the original carbon fiber boom rigging package or, perhaps due to the lighter weight of the carbon fiber boom, not considered necessary?

The next question concerns the reefing lines. I think the original arrangement was a single line reefing setup for each of two reef points. I've had this arrangement on previous boats and it does have distinct advantages to a single hander especially when an electric winch is available. The current arrangement is a standard fore and aft reef line for each of the two reef points all led aft to the cockpit which I believe is the setup used on the 30. While I'm curious on the original setup I must admit that I'm not anxious to try and install the block and tackle arrangement inside the boom necessary for single line setup.

I had the opportunity for a side by side comparison between the 30 and the 324 and was struck by the difference in the angle of the boom relative to the mast. This angle on the 324 is much steeper than the 30 and I was wonder if this correct or a result of the boom replacement? I know the mast on the 324 is 4' taller than the 30 but it appears that the boom hangers (correct name?) are the same length as on the 30 but mounted 4' higher than on the 30 thus creating the much steeper angle. Does anyone know if this is correct?  It certainly creates some problems in trying to provide some clearance at the aft end of the bimini along with contributing to the topping lift issue mentioned previously.

I know the 324 has a shallower draft, 4'-6" vs 5'-0", than the 30 due to a different keel but aren't the LOD,Beam and waterline length  the same as the 30? If so, why the 324 designation? Did they just include the bow pulpit to stretch it to 32'-4'?

I  know this is a long post and maybe not even the right place to the ask the questions but so few 324's were made that it is hard to find a source for correct answers so please forgive me if this is the wrong venue and thanks in advance for any answers.

Mike
s/v Brigadoon
324 #109

[David Biltcliffe]

Good morning Mike

 

I an unable to answer all your questions but I can tell you that I recall reading in these posts that the carbon fiber boom on that boat failed after the boat was moved south from New England - she was once moored in Dartmouth MA. before moving south.

 

David

'Spray" 1981 30C #93

Westport Point and South Dartmouth Ma.

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[Fred Rachwitz]

Great post, Mike.  And welcome to the Nonsuch Cult (as my wife describes it). You post was longer than usual but we needed background information and you were clear and concise with the amount of information you needed to convey. 

I can't help with your questions relating to the 324, but I can't imagine the topping lift without at least the 3:1 advantage, which I now have, unless it is on a 2 spd winch, which mine is not. I have even considered changing to Murray Cressman's 5:1 Garhauer system. If you upgrade, I recommend that you at least investigate it. 

Fred

Fred Rachwitz

Concerto, NS30U 445

Harbor Springs, MI

Northern Lake Michigan

Sent from Fred & Linda's iPad

[Michael Thorpe]

David, Thank you for your response. I was aware of the boats history and that the boom failure occured in ST Croix. I don't know what caused the failure but it is what it is. As you can tell from my post most of my questions concern the current rigging of the boom.

Fred, Thank you for your response and the suggestion to investigate  the Gerhauer system. I'm going to do that right now.

Mike Thorpe
s/v Brigadoon 1995 324 #109

[Jim Cosgrove]

Mike,
Congratulations on your new boat!  As far as the angle of the wishbone boom, it is my understanding that the boats designed after the 30, (the 26, 33, and 36) had a more acute angle relative to the mast.  That's one way I can tell a 26 from a 30 at a distance (before I can see the number of port lights).  So, I would guess the 324 would fall into that mode too.  I do not know about what was standard for the topping lift, but I cannot imagine that the weight of a carbon fiber boom+sail (+sail cover) is all that much less than it is for an aluminum one and that some mechanical advantage would be very helpful.  My 30 came with the upgraded Gerhauer system and it is very nice.  Some folks have also gone to smaller lines to reduce friction and make it easier to adjust.
Regards,
Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

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[Joseph L. Tierney]

Mike:

I have a Nonsuch 33; my last boat was a Pearson 31 which had single line reefing for both the first and second reefs. The spars on the Pearson were Isomat spars which, unlike our Nonsuch wishbone booms, were straight and rather sturdy with mid-boom sheeting. I believe the curved wishbone introduces considerable drag on the aft single reefing lines, but it is manageable and not overwhelming with a winch. Introducing a multipart tackle and two blocks inside the boom would, I think, cause overwhelming and unmanageable drag. Installing the tackle in each side would be a real challenge, and calculating the length of the lines would present a problem suitable for a mechanical engineer.

My topping lift is very hard to adjust, even with a winch, and I blame this mostly on drag inside the wishbone boom. I will eventually explore Murray Cressman's extra part tackle, as well as smaller diameter line to address that.

I have noticed that the 26 and the 33 have a steeper angle to the wishbone boom than the 30 or the 36, and have speculated that this may explain their reputation for being better sailers...if that reputation is valid...you could not prove it by my modest racing experience. I have never seen a 324 and don't know how it compares. The steeper angle probably increases the force needed to raise the aft end of the boom.

Welcome to the friendliest, most helpful "cult" in the world!

Joe Tierney,  Allegro, 1992 NS33 #64,  Annapolis, MD

[Mike Quill]

Hi Mike 

Yes I did the replacement Wishbone for that boat. If you like email me and I can answer your questions. 

Mike Quill 

[Ernie Abugov NS22 #56 S/V Moustaches]

Hi Mike -

Welcome to the .. uh...  cult/gang/group/club !!!

I sail a wonderful little Nonsuch 22 in which all sorts of stuff is simply way lighter than the booms, distances, etc. on boats the size of yours. However, your boat will comfortably carry most of the Belgian Army and their provisions AND sail at a real good clip so ...  it all balances out.

One of the most interesting challenges that we all face with these boats is the amount of sheer friction involved in lines rubbing against everything and anything, making reefing a strain and the raising of the honkin' big sail, absolute hell. John Newell, who sails the beautiful MASCOUCH out of Toronto, has written reams with regard to the challenge of reducing friction (keeping lines from dragging on cabin tops, reducing the amount of fairleads that lines are 'muled' through, using thinner lines and better blocks, etc.). Once you get your boat rigged, look at every single line's path to where it terminates in an effort to reduce the friction involved. Changing a few things here and there will make a dramatic difference.

Regarding the topping lift, I have 4 to 1 totally standard arrangement at the the aft end of the wishbone which, of course, travels up the outside of the starboard side of the boom, then straight down to a pulley at the base of the mast and back to me in the cockpit. It is EASY to adjust because I've solved the problem of the line twisting in all of that travel. The twisting of the line causes the 2 blocks to rotate and all the lines rub and twist into each other. I fixed this problem by simply "locking" both blocks in the same plane to each other so they couldn't twist. I did this with a couple of pieces of SPECTRA "unbreakable" line. I think that this "twisting" issue is one of the biggest headaches of this system. BTW - aside from adjusting the topping lift to get the sail and boom out of your face, it's great to be able to play with it in light air (like lifting the boom to slightly "scandalize" the sail).

Once you get your new baby rigged and figgered out, look at every single piece of running rigging and have a ball re-inventing how it can work to make your life easier. I raise 90% of my sail by hand and finish the job with my little old Lewmar 16ST single speed winch. I use McLube on the sail slides a few times per year. No need for electric assistance (and I've had TWO lower back surgeries). 

Besides, what else is there to do besides experiment and drink coffee aboard a boat with one sail ?? Ya gotta love it, man.

Enjoy your new ship.  All the best.

Ernie Abugov

Toronto

On Thursday, August 22, 2013 9:29:13 AM UTC-4, Michael Thorpe wrote:

[Michael Thorpe]

Wow, all the responses....what a website. Thanks everyone.

I certainly do need some mechanical advantage to raise my boom with the topping lift. The current arrangement has the topping lift going directly from the back of the boom to the top of mast then down to a turning block at the base of the mast and aft through a line clutch to a winch on the starboard side cabin top.. There is also a spare cheek block mounted aft on the inside of the starboard side of the boom. I'm thinking that with a 3 part tackle dead ended at the end of the boom and, with a long pennant,at the top of the mast I could reeve the topping lift through the spare cheek block and then the 3 part tackle. Thia would give a 5-1 mechanical advantage running to a winch. I have to look a all the lead angles but it is a possibility.

A couple of you mentioned "Murray Cressman's 5:1 Garhauer system." I'm not sure what this is so if someone could explain it a little further that would be great.

Once again thanks to everyone for all the information. I really appreciate it.

Mike Thorpe
s/v Brigadoon 324 #109

On Thursday, August 22, 2013 9:29:13 AM UTC-4, Michael Thorpe wrote:

[Douglas Haas]

Just because I haven't seen it mentioned- you need to relax the
choker of you want to adjust the topping lift.
Even w/ a N:1 mechanical advantage. I forget occasionally & then
wonder why I can't raise the boom!
(I usually raise the sail a bit before dropping sail to avoid the bimini.)

Doug Haas
Cat's Meow
N26C Oriental, NC

[Jim Cosgrove]

Mike,
Murray Cressman is in Kitchner, ON. Contact him on 519-893-3388 or
cre...@sympatico.ca. You can see some of what he makes/sells on the INA
website. Go to www.nonsuch.org then find the tabs Friends of
Nonsuch/Design, Brokers and Riggers/Sailor Catalog. I just looked and
did see the topping lift system listed, but I think what's on the web
site is only some of what he has/sells.

Changing gears...I would be very interested in your experience in
sailing Brigadoon from St. Croix to the mainland. Would you be willing
to post your experience? Or have you posted already someplace? (Maybe
you have and I just missed it.)

Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

[Joseph L. Tierney]

Jim:
I just tried, and that tab is dead/inert. "Suppliers and General Interest" works, but does not include Murray Cressman. I am a Luddite, but...

Joe Tierney,  Allegro, 1992 NS33 #64,  Annapolis, MD

[Joseph L. Tierney]

Tried it again, and now it works. Go figure!
Joe T.

[Michael Thorpe]

Jim, I just looked at Murray Cressmans page on www.nonsuch.org and saw a number of items but not the topping lift arrangement. Maybe I missed something but......

As to my experience sailing Brigadoon back from St Croix I haven't posted the story anywhere else and I'd be happy to answer any questions but I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for. I can tell you about my overall schedule, why I choose the route I did, where we stopped (there were two of us), how long it took, how the boat sailed and of course a few war stories.

On Thursday, August 22, 2013 9:29:13 AM UTC-4, Michael Thorpe wrote:

[Michael Thorpe]

Mike Quill,
Thank you for your response. As you can tell from my posts I'm trying to learn the what the original rigging arrangement was for the boom on my 324. Do you know if it was or should it be the same as the setup on the 30?
Thanks,

Mike Thorpe
s/v Brigadoon 324 #109

 Thursday, August 22, 2013 9:29:13 AM UTC-4, Michael Thorpe wrote: