Below Deck Autopilot for 30C

[Colle Bustin]

I'm looking at replacing the Autopilot this season and would like to move to a below deck drive the current Autohelm ST4000 isn't up to the task, but mounting options on the Nonsuch 30C seem limited for the drive with out a good amount of work. I'm looking for any recommendations or how others may have achieved this and what drives they have been using.

Currently I'm leaning towards a  Simrad mechanical drive but the only mounting option seems to be to glass in a shelve of some sort, any thoughts or suggestions are welcome!

[Bob Gehrman]

The ST4000 does have a remote feature unless you just want to scrap it.

Bob Gehrman

NS30U #396 "Quickbeam"

Baltimore, Maryland

On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 1:49 PM Colle Bustin <colletsu...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm looking at replacing the Autopilot this season and would like to move to a below deck drive the current Autohelm ST4000 isn't up to the task, but mounting options on the Nonsuch 30C seem limited for the drive with out a good amount of work. I'm looking for any recommendations or how others may have achieved this and what drives they have been using.

Currently I'm leaning towards a  Simrad mechanical drive but the only mounting option seems to be to glass in a shelve of some sort, any thoughts or suggestions are welcome!

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[wwoo...@hdairnow.com]

Here is a photo of what came with my 33 in the form of a below deck autopilot.  The "shelf" is two pieces of 3/4" plywood.  They are connected to each other at 90 degrees. The assembly is L shaped in cross section.  The top is glassed to the transom.  The leg is glassed to the bottom of the boat.  The joint between the two is glassed to each piece of plywood.  The assembly is plenty strong as it has been there since before Raymarine bought Autohelm.  The actuator is labeled with the Autohelm logo.  It is the same type 1 drive Raymarine makes today.  The setup is controled with a modern Raymarine ASU-200, P70s and  rudder position sensor.

The autopilot is networked to the A78 Raymarine Chartploter, VHF Radio and Vesper AIS transponder.  The ST60 speed depth and wind instruments are also on the network using the SeaTalk ng to SeaTalk converter.

Joe will like the .JPG file format.

Ward Woodruff

N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

[Colle Bustin]

The plan is to just scrap it and replace the full system and bring everything up to NMEA2000.

[Colle Bustin]

That's very helpful, is it attached to its own Tiller Arm on the rudder post? and are you using a rudder position sensor?

[Ward Woodruff]

Yes, the autopilot has its own tiller arm clamped to the rudder shaft.

Yes, there is a position sensor.  It is mounted to another much lighter fabricated structure.  I might be able to find a photo.  The position sensor is connected to the autopilot tiller arm in a hole inboard of the drive unit connection.

Ward Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

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[Greg Silver]

Hi Colle

Not sure if this will be helpful to you but I recently put an underdeck autopilot in my Niagara 35, and from this experience I think the same type of install would work in my Nonsuch26 (but I don't need such a powerful pilot on that boat, wheel pilot works great). I installed an electric linear drive, Raymarine Type 2 (good for our 7 tons displacement), which communicates on Seatalk to the rest of the Raymarine gear (Evolution 1 and ACU, eS75 plotter, Quantum radar and i70 for wind/speed/depth etc.). The bronze tiller arm (from Edson) is mounted at right angles to the rudder post, and the drive unit is mounted fore-and-aft, to the fore-and-aft bulkhead inboard of the port quarterberth (with a beefed up mounting plate). This makes it very easy to access from the lazarette for servicing and inspection, and doesn't get in the way of anything else like steering cables, etc. You might find this geometry works on your 30.

Best regards,

Greg Silver

Misty Cat 26C #121

Cape Breton, Nova Scotia

[Simon James]

Hi, I will also be installing a below deck hydaulic auto pilot in 5 months on my NS 30, pls let me know what you solution ends up being,

cheers

[gregor...@gmail.com]

I'm in the middle of the same project on my 30U. 

The Simrad and Raymarine were the two units I was considering. Ken ( Kismet # 398 ) was kind enough to spend some time with me discussing his Simrad set up which he has been very happy with. For that reason it went to the top of my list. In the end Defender Marine has their annual warehouse sale going until Sunday 3/28 and has what I thought is a good deal on a Raymarine EV200 package with a $250 rebate plus a S100 remote and Seatalk convertor kit included at no additional cost. This package includes the type 1 linear drive which is good for boats up to 24,000 lbs.  "Challenge" has Raymarine ST60+ displays so connecting this new package to the wind instruments for sailing a specific angle should be easy to do with the Seatalk converter kit.  I also have experience with this Raymarine package on a J112e that I race on and know it is a very capable autopilot. I've ordered the kit this week and expect to receive it within a few days.

I'm still working on the layout but at this point my ideas are as follows:

Type 1 Linear Drive - Planning on purchasing an Edson tiller arm to connect the drive unit to the rudder shaft. The quadrant connection is doable but it looks to me like the installation will be easier with a separate tiller arm and this provides some steering redundancy in the event there is a problem with the quadrant. I don't have the package yet so haven't been able to fit it on the boat but from some preliminary measurements I think I can mount it to the port side transom either with a wooden shelf or fabricated aluminum bracket. The transom is heavily reinforced in this area so have no concerns about structural integrity. I like Wards solution on his 33 and will look to see if that is possible on a 30. My concern is that the quadrant on the 30's is very low and close to the hull structure that supports the rudder post so there might not be enough room to mount a tiller arm below it. Having the linear drive in hand will tell me that.

EV1 Sensor Core - Planning on mounting this above the rudder/quadrant assembly and fastened to the transom as high up as possible while still allowing room to adjust and see the LED indicator light. It will away from electrical interference and protected from damage. The nice thing about these new sensors is that they can be mounted almost anywhere in the boat as long as it's parallel with the centerline of the hull. Unlike the old fluxgate compasses that needed to be as close to the center of the hull and as down low as possible. 

ACU200 Control Unit - Planning on mounting this against the back side of the nav station cabinet in the port lazarette. I recently installed a new BlueSeas 7605 battery charger/combiner on this same wall.  I normally would not mount the control unit close to another electrical device due to it being a potential source of  interference but they will not be operating at the same time so it seems like it will work.

This layout looks to me like the easiest to install, the minimum distance for wire & cable runs, and the least amount of lost space in the lazarette. I welcome any comments or suggestions and good luck with your project.

Greg Doyal

NS30U #516 Challenge

Grosse Pointe, MI

On Tuesday, February 2, 2021 at 1:49:07 PM UTC-5 colletsu...@gmail.com wrote:

[Bob Gehrman]

Hi Greg - I’m curious how your project is coming along? I’m thinking of doing the same thing on my NS30U.

Bob Gehrman

NS30U #396 “Quickbeam”

Baltimore, Maryland

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[gregor...@gmail.com]

Hi Bob,

Unfortunately I haven't gotten beyond the "purchase" phase of the project. I've had other pressing responsibilities at home this summer which hasn't allowed me much time on the boat. The basic layout is pretty much set and I'd be happy to share any progress I make. 

In the meantime feel free to call me if you want to discuss any ideas.

Regards,

Greg Doyal

NS30U #516 Challenge

Grosse Pointe, MI

[Ron Weber]

Bob,

For what it's worth, based on my extensive research on this topic, unless you are requiring inter-connection with other electronics, the best solution I found is a CPT wheel pilot. I installed same on my N22 and really like it. It may be seen as overkill for the size of my boat, but I chose it for it's industrial grade reliability and simplicity. Maintenance is probably almost non-existent, the belt change couldn't be simpler and the power consumption is minimal. The operation and sea state adjustments are straight forward and don't require remembering menu hierarchy to locate these adjustments. I love mine, but all it does is steer your boat - doesn't follow pre planned navigation routes, doesn't start your coffee in the morning nor does it flush your toilet should a visitor be confused, but it does a perfect job of steering your boat.

Best of luck whichever path you choose.

Ron Weber

N22 Magic Time

Punta Gorda Fl

[gregor...@gmail.com]

Bob,

My original plan was to build a horizontal shelf to mount the linear drive but after reading the installation manual I discovered it can be mounted in any orientation, including on a vertical surface or upside down. After looking at the area my plan at this point is to install it vertically against the transom which is reinforced with a core material (see pictures from an earlier post). I'm assuming the core is plywood but it may be balsa like the rest of the hull. The final plan will depend on how the drive lines up with the Edson autopilot tiller arm, which I haven't ordered yet. Hopefully an additional "stand-off" pad will be needed on the transom to help the alignment with the tiller arm. If that is the case I'll glass in a square of hardwood or possibly aluminum. If I use aluminum I can tap the bolt holes into the pad. Still some details to work out but the first step is to get the Edson tiller arm and take some measurements.

Greg Doyal

NS30U #516 Challenge

Grosse Pointe, MI

On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 7:59:46 PM UTC-4 gregor...@gmail.com wrote:

[Bob Gehrman]

Thanks Ron -

I have an Autohelm ST4000+ wheel pilot which is just OK. I’d say I can rely on it 50% of the time, but sometimes it is dangerous. It might be at the upper end of the weight range for the capacity of this unit. I’m just looking at other optionsright now and I’d love something more stealth if it works better more of the time.

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[Ron Weber]

Bob,

Off subject, but I noted that you are in Baltimore. I lived in Bel Air before moving to Punta Gorda. I have three daughters still in Bel Air and visit there often. I sailed the Chesapeake for many many years, but never had time off from work enough to explore all the places that the Chesapeake had to offer. I would have loved to explore the lower Chesapeake as I had sailed through a couple of times and found it to be a different place than the upper Bay. 

I'd love to trade you a sail on the Chesapeake for a sail on Charlotte Harbor.

Ron Weber

N22 Magic Time

Punta Gorda Fl

[gregor...@gmail.com]

Ron,

You are absolutely correct. If looking for a cost effective solution for an autopilot you can't go wrong with any of the wheel mounted units. I currently have a fully functioning Simrad WP30 wheel mounted unit that uses a gear in lieu of the belt and it works great holding a fairly consistent and steady course. 

My decision to go with a more advanced autopilot was based on a few requirements I have that aren't provided by the CPT or other wheel mounted pilots.

1) The EV100 and newer units utilize a 9 axis heading sensor that measures not only heading but also pitch, yaw, and roll. The control unit takes all this information and processes it using a learning algorithm which automatically matches drive response to the characteristics of the boat and the current conditions. This is much more sophisticated than manually adjusting sea state and gain. Combined with a variable response linear drive you get a more accurate course which for me doing singlehanded racing is a big plus. Certainly not needed for cruising but it will keep me on a level playing field with the other boats I sail against which already have this technology.

2) Integration with other electronics and remote operation was also something I wanted. With the EV100 I'll have multiple ways of adjusting the course heading from anywhere in the boat. My chartplotter at the helm, the control head on the forward cockpit bulkhead, and the remote (which came free with the unit) will allow me to make adjustments no matter where I'm sitting or standing. While racing I can easily make small course adjustments when a windshift occurs without going to the helm station.

3) Finally, I was interested in eliminating the noise from the motor by having it below decks where I can't hear it. Having sailed on other boats with the EV100 I was really surprised at how quiet it is.

The EV100 will end up being about $1,000-$1,500 more than the CPT after shipping, mounting brackets, etc. Included in that additional cost is the extra control head and remote. For me this was worth the extra cost but I can understand that many will not want or use those features.

Regards,

Greg Doyal

NS30U #516 Challenge

Grosse Pointe, MI

[gregor...@gmail.com]

Bob,

What you are experiencing with the ST4000+ is due to it utilizing a Fluxgate compass instead of the newer solid state heading sensors. The fluxgate provides heading information at a much much slower rate than the new solid state sensors so the boat will "hunt" some when conditions aren't perfect. A fluxgate will also suffer from inertial errors in heavier seas or when the wind is up due to the internal compass swinging back and forth. Much like the pedestal compass we have at the binnacle. You will notice a big improvement when going to the newer technology.

Greg

[Bob Gehrman]

Ron - You got it! LMK when you’re going to be in the area. I’m in the Inner Harbor usually.

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[Ron Weber]

Bob,

I will be there end of October and will be in touch. Thanks for the invite.

Ron Weber,

N22 Magic Time

Punta Gorda Fl

[Joe Valinoti]

I’ve driven many boats and the worst autopilot I’ve come across, was the ST4000 and it’s propensity to suddenly go walk about.  My very old 3000 is rock steady in comparison.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

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[peter farley]

I have a below deck linear drive autopilot that is mounted to an aluminum I-beam that is in turn mounted to the floor of the cockpit.

The I-beam is about 2 foot long and bolted through the floor in the cockpit every 6 inches.

The drive is then bolted to the underside of the I-beam and the connector is clamped to the rudder posts.

I will be down at the boat this weekend and will gets some pictures.

It is a very strong and clean setup.

Peter Farley

Knot in a Hurry u30 #328

Keyport NJ

[peter farley]

Here are the pictures of my auto pilot mounted below deck,

Peter Farley

Knot in. A hurry #328 30

Keyport no

[peter farley]

[peter farley]

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Peter,

That's a clean-looking installation in a very clean-looking compartment.  

I'm trying to better understand what I'm seeing in the pictures.  It looks like the main part is a hydraulic piston mounted parallel to, and just off of, the transom.  Is that right?  Is the I-beam actually connected to the cockpit floor, or is it connected to the deck between the coaming and the transom?

In the second picture (the first of your second post), there seems to be an "L" bracket fastened to the vertical panel facing the transom, with a rotating arm and a connecting rod going to the fitting connecting the piston to the rudder shaft.  Some questions about that:

1. What's the function of that part of the system?  Is it just there to stabilize the piston, or is that what senses rudder angle?  The L bracket looks pretty light if it has any force to deal with.
   
2. This may just be because I'm not envisioning this properly, and/or not sufficiently familiar with the 30C layout.  But, isn't that L bracket on the back of the propane locker?  If it is, how did you secure it to avoid compromising the locker's integrity? 
   
3. It looks like alignment is really critical for this part of the installation.  Since I always have problems with that, any tips on how you got it right?
   

If you get a chance to post some more pictures, I'd be really interested in seeing where the I- and L- bracket fasteners appear on the other side.

Thanks,

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233

[peter farley]

The small bracket is holding the rudder position sensor. There is no load on that so no need for a heavy bracket. You have 3 main components to line up. There is the rudder post clamp which is marine brass and clamps around the rudder shaft. Then the other two pieces are tied to that. The actual pilot drive and then rudder position sensor. The sensor gives the feedback to where the rudder currently is. In my setup the sensor and the drive are 180 degrees apart. My post clamp came with a thread hole for the sensor pin. I will try and go back down and get some measurements  this week.