Another comment on the Stack Pack for any Nonsuch

[BARRY STOTT]

Obviously, the Stack Pack makes a quick and easy job of flaking the sail down either for reefing or for overnight storage, but there are two problems.

The main one, in my opinion, is that its slab-sided shape destroys the airfoil lift and proper shape of the bottom several feet of the sail, which is why you’ll never see one in use on any high-performance racing sailboat. Thus, you have to choose between convenience or max cruising speed.

Also, as others have pointed out, they tend to collect salt spray and rain water to ill long-term effect on the sail.

Personally, I think they look sort of ugly, too, but the charter companies love them as a rental display billboard.

Barry Stott
Chadds Ford, PA
ebs...@aol.com
(Still shopping for a bristol Nonsuch 36)

[10464...@gmail.com]

When done absolutely right, which is about half the time, my sail falls entirely into the stak-pak and the only chore left is to zip it up. Absolutely right includes a Tides sail track, a proper laid out halyard tail and a helms person able to keep the boat dead into the wind. To me that is beautiful, not ugly.

Bob D

[Gary Forster]

I must agree with Bob as beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have a Doyle Stackpack from Paul B over on City Island for Aloki (a 30’ ultra) . Paul and crew always do a great job and this was no exception. 

Ease of use is the primary reason one gets a stackpack obviously and it has prompted us to have a last minute harbor sail in the evenings. Replacing the 25+ year old strong track along with an electric winch for the halyard pretty much takes all the hard work of getting underway. 

 I will say there is an increase of windage with the stackpack - relative to docking and while on a mooring. Not really a criticism but more of an observation one has to be aware of. 

Cheers, Gary , Aloki , Oyster Bay, NY

[newelljc9]

I reckon my stack pack allowed me an extra hours sailing and an hour less in a hot lagoon. Those were the substantial pluses. The negatives included even greater restricted lines of sight forward, a bathtub full of water trapped in the sail occasionally, (wise to keep the hatch closed until the sail is raised), presents considerable windage which can be an issue if the prevailing wind is at 90 degrees to the dock as it is in my lagoon. 

My new rig gives excellent vision forward,  minimal windage and minimal water trapped in the sail.

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto

PS : The boom of Mascouche is about 4' above the deck whereas the bottom of the stack pack on Ingleside is a foot off the deck. (see photo attached)

On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 3:55:03 PM UTC-4 ebs...@aol.com wrote:

[Peter Grabow]

Hi All - 

I am surprised at the issues some have mentioned with a StackPack - aside from those who do not like the way it looks, which is obviously a personal preference...

I have a StackPack, made by Doyle in City Island,NY, on my boat since around 2013(?) and do not seem to have any of the issues presented in this discussion - 

1) Water trapped in the pack - mine has drainage ports about every 3 or 4 feet along the bottom where the pack is stitched to the sail foot... rarely, and I really mean rarely, has any water remained accumulated in the pack, even after the heaviest of rains. It doesn't collect salt or any other spray either - it all drains out easily.

2) Increased windage - I fail to see how the pack creates any additional windage vs an exposed sail (not covered) or a sail covered by a traditional cover.  Pre-StackPack days, I found the sail sitting in the cradle lines but not covered, created quite a challenge if the winds were up when docking by catching in the folds of the sail, and also a forward visual challenge when the wind would catch it and make it rise up sometimes almost to the boom. My old cover did not create any more or less windage than I have found the StackPack to create.

3) Effecting the sail's ability to power the boat - I find no difference from before or after having the StackPack - the lower few feet of the sail (just above the foot) I have always been told have really no effect on a sail's power, that the majority of the power comes from the mid-section of the sail - this is why the mid-sail tell-tales are so important, and the top and bottom not so much.  My StackPack was made with a membrane that attaches the top to the StackPack to the sail and when the sail is hoisted, the pack sits flush against the sail creating no additional drag. mine also has a collar that connects both front sides of the pack, going around the mast, which prevents wind from getting into the pack and creating drag at the front.

4) Visibility forward - if one's StackPack is properly fitted, I fail to understand how the pack reduces visibility forward. My pack is stitched to the foot of the sail. It is no lower than the sail foot. If one didn't have a visibility issue with a sail that has no pack, how does one with a pack create a visibility issue if it's height above the deck is identical to the sail's foot height above the deck? I haven't seen a Nonsuch with a clear window in the sail which I could then understand a pack covering part of that window would be a problem. I believe the restricted visibility issue to be either misperception or an improperly made StackPack.

I will say that the StackPack is one of the 3 best additions made to the boat in 35 years, and would highly recommend having one - it makes it so much easier to work with such a large sail, especially when solo sailing, gets it put away in a minute or two, instead of 10 minutes with a traditional cover, and in my opinion (just my opinion) it enhances the look of my boat keeping her trim and tidy looking and coordinates the color scheme.

Peter Grabow

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30 Ultra 430

Jersey City, NJ

[Howard Wright]

Hi Peter, if you have a pic of your boat with the stack pack, I would love to see it

Howard Wright

26C Merrythought

Friday Harbot

On Jul 24, 2022, at 10:16 AM, Peter Grabow <pke...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All - 

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[Peter Grabow]

This last photo shows that when adjusted properly, the StackPack sits flat against the lower portion of the sail. It doesn't puff out or create any drag and looks nice and neat (at least to me).

In the 2nd photo, I am sure to tension the choker after dropping the sail so 1) the StackPack doesn't rub on the leading edge of the dodger and 2) so it is nice and straight/taut and doesn't hang like an inch-worm.

In the first photo you can see the outline of the membrane that attaches the StackPack to the sail and holds the bag tight against the sail when it is raised.

Peter Grabow

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30U 430

[Howard Wright]

Thanks! That does look clean. Is there any problem keeping the choke tight when mooring the boat?

Howard

On Jul 24, 2022, at 1:52 PM, Peter Grabow <pke...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Brian @ SV Serenity]

OK, Peter, I'll bite.   You said "the StackPack is one of the 3 best additions made to the boat in 35 years".  What are your other two best additions?

Brian

SV Serenity

Nonsuch Nereus #003

Pax River, MD

[Charles A. Mitchell, III]

love to hear the other two as well

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[Peter Grabow]

Hi Howard,

No issues tightening the choker. It performs the same as if the StackPack wasn't there. As long as your choker lines and blocks are of the correct lengths and sizes there should be no difference.

Hi Brian and Charles,

the other two best additions/improvements would be:

1) the full dodger and bimini enclosures I had made back in 2015/2016 - I designed it so I have 6ft of headroom under the dodger, and 6'4" under teh bimini. I am not tall, so the feeling of space is wonderful! The huge windows all around allow for great visibility. The protection is outstanding! We will pretty much eat every meal in the cockpit no matter the weather, and can sail late into the year (November) especially if it is sunny, the enclosure acts like a greenhouse and it is shirt-sleeve warm even when temps are in the 40's (Fahrenheit).

I had 4 screen panels made - center forward, both side entrances, and the aft center, so if it is warm but buggy, we can have a nice breeze but keep the bugs out. All of the panels can be either rolled up in place or zipped out.

2) The WinchRite electric winch handle is a great tool!  I know a lot of people will use a right-angle drill and I may switch to the right-angle if/when the WinchRite dies due to its increasing high cost, but it is much less expensive than an electric winch, and it can be used on all 3 winches, not just a single one (I use it on both coach-top winches, but I do not believe I have ever used it on the mainsheet winch).  When solo sailing, it allows me to easily keep a hand on the helm while raising the sail, which makes it no issue keeping the boat pointed into the wind.

On the secondary winch, I use it to pull in the choker after it has been let out all of the way to either raise or lower the sail, and I use it to take-up on the topping lift prior to dropping the sail so the sail doesn't rub across the dodger. Use of the WinchRite is preserving my right shoulder which had to be 're-built' back in 2013!

3) Honorable mention - and perhaps is really the #1 addition/improvement (!) - is The Last Mate! My girlfriend of 8 years is the driving influence of all of these great trips we have taken, the current cruise from which we just returned was Jersey City, NJ to Kennebunkport, Maine, 5 weeks, 22 ports of call, 718.3nm - Fantastic!  To be found by someone who loves being on the boat as much, if not more than I do, has been the best addition to my boat and life!

Peter Grabow

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30U 430

Jersey City, NJ

[Charles A. Mitchell, III]

I guess 2 out of 3 are doable. Pic of the bimini dodger?

If your sailing south of cape cod, we have a nice anchorage just off out house. Marstons Mills, part of Barnstable. easy sailing to nantucket and marthas vineyard

Chuck Mitchell

S/V Chill

1990 NS33   #60

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[Brian @ SV Serenity]

Peter,

Great descriptions, and I can see why you'd call those your biggest improvements.

1) Previous Owner left a dodger and bimini that are tall enough for me and mine, and had them constructed in such a way that they could be enclosed (but didn't get the panels needed for a full enclosure).  Until then, they are separate constructs, and I have absolutely smacked my face into the dodger more than once.  I believe that we've only eaten at the salon table once--all the rest of the times we've been in the cockpit.

2) I haven't seen the need to move to a drill or WinchRite, though I do follow the debates on various forums.  PO left me an electric winch that we use for the main halyard (and that I can drag the mizzen halyard over to if I needed to).  It means that I only have to manually take up the last foot or so.

3) My wife already refers to her as my "mistress", and complains that I spend so much money on her.  I have to keep reassuring my missus that she's still much more expensive than my boat.  :)

Brian

SV Serenity 

Nonsuch Nereus #003

Pax River MD

[Peter Grabow]

Charles - 

Thank you for the heads up about the anchorage near you!  We are back in Jersey City now, but will look at the anchorage next time we find ourselves in the area.

Peter Grabow

[Mike Jennings]

This comment comes from the “it better to learn from other peoples mistakes” department.

My last boat was of the sloop, drop the sail, flake it in the boom and lash it down variety. Put the sail cover on at the dock.

Love the stack pack and lazyjacks. Sail up to the entrance of the marina, drop the sail and motor the 200 yards to the slip.

The first time I did this I am sure that I tested the fenders beyond their approved capacity. No harm done, put it down to poor judgement.

The second time I missed the dock altogether. However with great seamanship, self launching fenders, skilled helmsmanship and dumb luck we found our way into the slip. 

Entering the slip is to turn into the wind and on the first occasion there had been a light breeze. On the second occasion there was a pleasant breeze.

It was only when I was closing up the stack pack that I realised that I need to pay attention to how much additional windage the partially furled sail added.

Now we put a temporary lashing on the sail before entering the marina.

Lesson learned, no insurance claims, everyone safe.

I am not sure who made the stack pack but rain isn’t a problem if the sail is not flaked and the stack pack looks like a banana. If puddles can form in the top of the stack pack, the water gets into the folds of the sail.

Mike Jennings.

NS005 Chancy.

Port Moody, BC.

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[BRIAN CAYER]

Brian

You just need to keep reminding you're love that She has your love and your DNA, the boat just has your love

Good sailing,

Brian

On Jul 25, 2022, at 12:43 PM, 'Brian @ SV Serenity' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Peter,

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[Deborah Sabo]

I also have a Doyle stackpack with drainage. When the sail is up the membrane enables the cover to be flat against the sail as if it was not there. I agree with Peter Grabow on CAKE WALK III. Everything he describes is my experience too. Except the look, becouse mine was made with dark blue. If I was to do it over I would pick a light color then it would not be such a visuasl eyesore, but blend in.

Deborh Sabo

Essence 324 1994 #103

[Charles A. Mitchell, III]

did the salem loft do your stack pack?

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[James Blackwell]

Hi All

Just spoke to Chris Howes of Doyle's Sail loft Salem- one of the foremost sail designers in the U.S. (and he's been fantastic to work with and ultra responsive). He said, yes, if it was a full on racer, yes, it would make a difference (think seconds). For club racing and cruising, it doesn't have any significant negative impact. Many boats with Stack Packs win their club races. Loss of speed from a Stack Pack is probably not a factor for the vast majority of Nonsuchers.

James
"Apollo" Nonsuch 30 U #415 '87
Marblehead, MA

[James Blackwell]

PS. I should add that he said the nature of the sail on a Nonsuch makes it even less sensitive to the impact of a Stack Pack.

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Deborah,

You may already know this in deciding on color preferences, but since not everyone's aware of it,  I want to just mention that there's a tradeoff to consider between aesthetics and durability.

The darker shades of canvas contain more UV-resistant additives and thus last longer in the sun. 

(Some people also claim they hide dirt better, but personally I've never had any luck in color-coordinating my canvas with local dirt sources.)

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233