Nonsuch pointing abilities?

[Jim in NVa]

My biggest frustration with my lovely FATE, my 30U shoal draft, is getting her to go to windward and the big tacking angles.  I can tack a sloop like a J80 in well under 90 degrees.  However, in FATE it is typically more like 110 degrees!  (Quite a difference from the "85 degrees" promised in the Nonsuch videos.)  I know to treat the Nonsuch sail like a genoa and bring the boom only to the corner of the transom. But if I try to get closer than say 55 degrees or so, the sail luffs and I lose a lot of speed.  A few months ago, Mark Ellis kindly answered a few questions for me, primarily why the shoal draft has to be reefed earlier than the deeper draft model, but he did not address the pointing questions I had. 

In the photo of the GPS above (which I hope shows up), I was trying to head SSE into approximately SSE wind of (I'm guessing) 12 knots or so, with waves of perhaps 1 foot.  Full sail up and heeled about 15 degrees max.  Not sure how old the sail is.  Not new, but not ancient either.  You can see the huge tacking angles...and I was trying my best to make progress south.

So, I'm asking all the Nonsuch sailing gurus (that is, those with more Nonsuch sailing experience than I have, which is almost everyone), what should I reasonably expect from a shoal draft 30?  And if I should be doing a lot better, is it technique (what's the secret), a new sail, or a hidden electric propulsion system?

Thanks!

Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

[Ben van Drimmelen]

I know that a Nonsuch 22 is not a 30, but I also have found that the best I can do is about 55 degrees each side of the wind. I suspect it is due to the lack of a foresail to “focus” the wind over the sails..

 

The fellow I bought the boat from had a good response: “If you are so eager to point closer, just fire up the engine”. And that has served me well ever since.

 

Nonsuches do well in light winds, but don’t do well slamming into waves and don’t point as well as sloops. On the other hand, they are easier to sail than most other sailboats. Good trade-off, I think…..

 

 

Ben van Drimmelen
NS 22 #55 - Puffin

Victoria, B.C

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[Capt. Mike]

Ben
I have done that a number of times when I wanted to get around a certain buoy or avoid having to make a tack. With my electric propulsion system I'm usually quietly turning the prop at low rpm anyway to negate prop drag. This also allows one to point up as needed with just a slight adjustment.

Mike
BIANKA
1986 30U

Sent from on board BIANKA
http://biankablog.blogspot.com

---

From: "Ben van Drimmelen" <b...@barristers4bears.com>

Sender: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 18:06:26 -0700

To: <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: Nonsuch pointing abilities?

[R D Young]

Prior to our Nonsuch, we had two other auxiliary sail boats, one a sloop and the other a cutter. Both sailed closer to the wind than our Nonsuch. After many years of trying to get our shoal draft 30U to sail as close to the wind as some people claim they can, I no longer worry about it. It is what it is. FWIW, I have heard it said that gentlemen don’t sail to weather anyway.

David Young
Bay Cat, 30U #402
Traverse City / Suttons Bay, MI

[coombsreg]

My deep keel N26C can point really well, I was sailing with a C&C 25 Racing sloop who spent most of the day looking at my stern the owner later told me he couldn't point any higher than me and wes very impressed with my Nunsuch.

Reg Coombs

1985 N26C #171

"Summerwind"

St Jones Within

Newfoundland

[ed ‹(•¿•)›]

"just fire up the engine”

Do you really do that when racing?

 

Ed Collis

Toronto

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ben van Drimmelen

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 9:06 PM

Subject: RE: Nonsuch pointing abilities?

[Daniel Andrew]

I find our N30C Shoal Draft does great 30 degrees of the wind.  In fact I spend last Sunday morning beating out of the Chester River (MD Eastern Shore) straight into a steady 15kts consistently making 4.5-5.0kts through the water pointed 30 degrees of the wind. With a single reef and the sheet set to hold the clew plumb with the counter, I literally locked the helm slightly down and kept hands off until it was time to tack through 60 degrees and lock her helm again. Adjusting the choker to get optimum speed.  Although the heading swung though only 60 degrees, lee way added an additional 10 degrees either side for an effective 80 degrees between CMGs.   Puffs and lulls cause temporary +/- 5 degree swings but will auto correct unaided.  Many other boats were making the same beat to windward and Alexander did better than all boats of equal length and several larger.  Of course the shoal draft allowed us to run longer on each leg resulting in less tacks and we spent less time regaining boat speed each time we tacked without need to trim a jib. 

Dan Andrew
N30C #137
ALEXANDER
Magothy River, MD

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[Jim Cosgrove]

Dan,

Can I get you to come out sailing with me this summer?  I want to learn your tricks to getting the best out of FATE. 

Jim

Jim Cosgrove

FATE 30U #343

Galesville, MD

Sent from my iPhone

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[ALST...@aol.com]

Only if you are confident you can get away with it

 

30C MagnifiCat

 

In a message dated 5/27/15 8:51:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, E...@Taxwizz.com writes:

"just fire up the engine”

Do you really do that when racing?

 

Ed Collis

Toronto

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ben van Drimmelen

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 9:06 PM

Subject: RE: Nonsuch pointing abilities?

I know that a Nonsuch 22 is not a 30, but I also have found that the best I can do is about 55 degrees each side of the wind. I suspect it is due to the lack of a foresail to “focus” the wind over the sails..

 

The fellow I bought the boat from had a good response: “If you are so eager to point closer, just fire up the engine”. And that has served me well ever since.

 

Nonsuches do well in light winds, but don’t do well slamming into waves and don’t point as well as sloops. On the other hand, they are easier to sail than most other sailboats. Good trade-off, I think…..

 

 

Ben van Drimmelen
NS 22 #55 - Puffin

Victoria, B.C

 

 

From: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com [mailto:INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim in NVa
Sent: May-26-15 5:21 PM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Nonsuch pointing abilities?

 

My biggest frustration with my lovely FATE, my 30U shoal draft, is getting her to go to windward and the big tacking angles.  I can tack a sloop like a J80 in well under 90 degrees.  However, in FATE it is typically more like 110 degrees!  (Quite a difference from the "85 degrees" promised in the Nonsuch videos.)  I know to treat the Nonsuch sail like a genoa and bring the boom only to the corner of the transom. But if I try to get closer than say 55 degrees or so, the sail luffs and I lose a lot of speed.  A few months ago, Mark Ellis kindly answered a few questions for me, primarily why the shoal draft has to be reefed earlier than the deeper draft model, but he did not address the pointing questions I had. 

In the photo of the GPS above (which I hope shows up), I was trying to head SSE into approximately SSE wind of (I'm guessing) 12 knots or so, with waves of perhaps 1 foot.  Full sail up and heeled about 15 degrees max.  Not sure how old the sail is.  Not new, but not ancient either.  You can see the huge tacking angles...and I was trying my best to make progress south.

So, I'm asking all the Nonsuch sailing gurus (that is, those with more Nonsuch sailing experience than I have, which is almost everyone), what should I reasonably expect from a shoal draft 30?  And if I should be doing a lot better, is it technique (what's the secret), a new sail, or a hidden electric propulsion system?

Thanks!

Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

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[coombsreg]

I got a few videos on utube of my N26C pointing nicely in 25 and 30 knot wind. I've attached a few pic's of Summerwind pointing in 25-30 knot wind during hurricane Cristibol

Reg Coombs 

1985 N26C #171

Summerwind

St Jones Within 

Newfoundland

-------- Original message --------

From: "ed ‹(•¿•)›"

Date:05-27-2015 10:21 AM (GMT-03:30)

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Nonsuch pointing abilities?

"just fire up the engine”

Do you really do that when racing?

 

Ed Collis

Toronto

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ben van Drimmelen

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 9:06 PM

Subject: RE: Nonsuch pointing abilities?

I know that a Nonsuch 22 is not a 30, but I also have found that the best I can do is about 55 degrees each side of the wind. I suspect it is due to the lack of a foresail to “focus” the wind over the sails..

 

The fellow I bought the boat from had a good response: “If you are so eager to point closer, just fire up the engine”. And that has served me well ever since.

 

Nonsuches do well in light winds, but don’t do well slamming into waves and don’t point as well as sloops. On the other hand, they are easier to sail than most other sailboats. Good trade-off, I think…..

 

 

Ben van Drimmelen
NS 22 #55 - Puffin

Victoria, B.C

 

 

From: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com [mailto:INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim in NVa
Sent: May-26-15 5:21 PM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Nonsuch pointing abilities?

 

My biggest frustration with my lovely FATE, my 30U shoal draft, is getting her to go to windward and the big tacking angles.  I can tack a sloop like a J80 in well under 90 degrees.  However, in FATE it is typically more like 110 degrees!  (Quite a difference from the "85 degrees" promised in the Nonsuch videos.)  I know to treat the Nonsuch sail like a genoa and bring the boom only to the corner of the transom. But if I try to get closer than say 55 degrees or so, the sail luffs and I lose a lot of speed.  A few months ago, Mark Ellis kindly answered a few questions for me, primarily why the shoal draft has to be reefed earlier than the deeper draft model, but he did not address the pointing questions I had. 

In the photo of the GPS above (which I hope shows up), I was trying to head SSE into approximately SSE wind of (I'm guessing) 12 knots or so, with waves of perhaps 1 foot.  Full sail up and heeled about 15 degrees max.  Not sure how old the sail is.  Not new, but not ancient either.  You can see the huge tacking angles...and I was trying my best to make progress south.

So, I'm asking all the Nonsuch sailing gurus (that is, those with more Nonsuch sailing experience than I have, which is almost everyone), what should I reasonably expect from a shoal draft 30?  And if I should be doing a lot better, is it technique (what's the secret), a new sail, or a hidden electric propulsion system?

Thanks!

Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

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[coombsreg]

[Jim Cosgrove]

Cool pics, thanks. At the angle of heel shown in the first pic, my shoal draft boat would be rounding up in the gusts. That's what Mark Ellis confirmed for me. It's a function of the smaller rudder on the shoal draft. 

That said, in the Chesapeake I can often take short cuts that deeper draft boats cannot. So I gain an advantage there. 

Still interested in figuring out differences on tacking angles for similar boats. 

Jim Cosgrove

FATE 30U #343

Galesville MD

Sent from my iPhone

<Summerwind on her ears.JPG>

<Summerwind Close hauled.JPG>

<Summerwind close reach.JPG>

[Joe Valinoti]

I’ve found with my 30U shoal draft that I can compete with the non-Nonsuch boats very well as long as I have about 12 to 18 knots.  They are very amazed at how well we do.  In light air it’s a different story entirely.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

 

From: Jim in NVa

Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 8:21 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Nonsuch pointing abilities?

 

[Herb Huber]

Jim, There probably is a fix that will help your boat to point better. In the last 42 nautical mile triangular Lower Lake Huron Solo Challenge http://www.solosailors.org/pdfs/2014-lhSolo.pdf  I pointed with the best in the JAM fleet and took 1st place both on straight time & PHRF. My baggy sail is 20 years old & the leach is hooked. Yes, my competitors were surprised. They too thought that a Nonsuch couldn't point as well as the traditional Bermudian Sloop. I do acknowledge that our blunt bow will definitely slow you down big time if the wind is light, on the nose & you have to plow through waves. I believe that my old sail was cut by the original Nonsuch sail maker - Ed Botterell. He has published two booklets. I like the one called NONSUCH SAIL TRIM because it has more for the racer.

Herb G. Huber

MISTOFFELEES NS30C#91

Lake Huron Nonsuch Association

Lower Lake Huron Fleet

Sarnia, Ontario. 

[Jim Cosgrove]

Herb,
Thanks for the advice.  Is MISTOFFELEES a shoal or standard draft?  Seems that might make a difference, although considering Dan Andrew's note maybe not...or not as much.  I do have one of Ed's books, not sure which one though.

I love my boat and would not trade her for anything.  But I would like to figure out if I can do something (improve my technique or the sail) to point better.  On a reach or a run, I routinely overtake most other cruising boats if there is good wind.  So, if I could point higher I would be ecstatic.

Thanks everyone, keep the advice coming.  Especially from those of you with the shoal draft keel.

Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

[Joe Valinoti]

The best thing you can do to learn how to point is race your boat.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

From: Jim Cosgrove

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 5:21 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

[William Baxter]

If you read MagnifiCat's comment carefully, Ed, you'll never know.  Just sayin...

:-)

Bill Baxter

Persistence NS30 #507

Penetang, ON

[Daniel Andrew]

Jim,
I'd be glad to sail with you sometime this summer.   Having never sailed a Nonsuch other than ALEXANDER it'd be interesting to compare. 

In general here's what I've found works well for getting the most out of ALEXANDER. 

1) Fully ease the topping lift.  The self-vanging properties of the wishbone rig are negated if the topping lift has any tension. I like the topping lift to curve well below the leech.

2) It is critical to match the sail angle to the desired point of sail.  When out of synch the helm is unresponsive and ends up causing a lot of drag. 

3) Reef early.  More than 15 degrees heel and the weather helm is uncontrollable.  Like dinghy sailors say "Flat is fast and fast is fun".

4) Use the choker to fine tune the sail power and balance the helm.  Whenever I feel ALEXANDER is not sailing well, adjusting the sail shape with the choker fixes the problem.  I think about making choker adjustments the same as adjusting the sheet cars for a head sail.  Easing the choker reduces foot tension while relatively increasing leech tension.

I have yet to experiment with using a cunningham to adjust luff tension.

Basically I find sailing the Nonsuch similar to sailing a Laser or windsurfer. If only it could get up on a plane...on second thought I'll leave that to my son sailing a Soverel 33 at 17kts!

[Ernie Abugov N22 #56 "Moustaches" EYC-Toronto]

Hi guys -

 

I don't race but I do agree with Joe. And my boat is "little" with a nice fin keel.

 

I break the rule and sheet the sail in a bit "too much" (if there is some wind). And I do adjust the choker (which helps).

 

But I also play with halyard tension (and go MUCH faster on calmer days by really easing the tension off). The only thing left to do (besides adjusting my non-existing cunningham) is to raise the boom a bit via the topping lift (scandalize the sail). In truth, i've never gone that far.

 

And, yes, I do reef.

 

In decent wind, I found that could sail at a good clip around 45 degrees off the wind (tack thru around 90 degrees) by sheeting the sail in a bit too much.

 

That's why these vessels are fascinating !!  Love my boat.

 

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Allen Ames]

re: Pointing to weather:

I confess to being partially responsible for some of the original Nonsuch videos and used to pretend to

something about them.

Because of shoal draft and even shoaler rudder, the shoal draft boat will never point as high as the full draft.

Other than that, I stand by the claims made in the videos. She will not sail as close to the wind when in a chop or very light air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIIRiMWnHJ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgoJWgDnDe8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8zZ5nElPLE  (This one is just for fun!!)

Allen Ames

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 8:21:24 PM UTC-4, Jim in NVa wrote:

[Allen Ames]

Isn't this true of ALL shoal draft boats?

The J80 is designed as a narrow and deep racing machine which will perform far better to windward as long as you have the crew to man her.  (At night you could raft up to the nice dry, roomy, and warm Nonsuch! <grin>) 

Allen

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[Jim Cosgrove]

Well, I bought a Nonsuch (two of 'em actually) instead of a J/80 so I guess that shows where my heart lies.  And I agree that shoal draft boats will not point as high as deep draft boats.  What I've been hoping for is some objective performance measure of the shoal draft Nonsuch 30 that I could use as a goal.  The GPS tracks I showed was the best I could do in something like 12 knots+ wind and seas of about 1'  Should I have been able to do better?  I'm hoping the answer is yes.  (And if "yes" then "how")

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences.
Best,

Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

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[Allen Ames]

I also owned two Nonsuches (N/26 #4 and N/30 #181).  

Of course, the GPS track shows ACTUAL course made good, not how many degrees you are tacking in.  In other words: it figures in the leeway.

My guess is that the shoal draft boat increases its leeway rather quickly as it heels, so that it is important to sail her rather flat.  Although her beam at the waterline is not that different from a similar length C&C or similar vessel, that beam increases quickly as the boat heels, thus decreasing effective depth of keel and rudder significantly.  

Although I have little experience with the shoal draft boats, I do remember experiencing the rudder stalling out when I was doing test sails in gusty winds.

I may have known the technical terms for all of this at some point ("lateral resistance", etc?), but they are gone now.

At any rate, I believe that a shoal draft boat should be sailed flatter than a full keel version and that the course-made-good might improve in certain conditions if you foot her off a bit.

Allen Ames

[R D Young]

Allen, You may have something there with your comments on heel angle affecting upwind performance. Having sailed a shoal draft 30U for going on 17 seasons, I occasionally get her to go upwind amazingly well but most times not so much. I have fiddled endlessly (for a cruiser) with the sheets, the choker, the halyard and the topping lift but have never paid much attention to heel angle, other than to reef when it exceeds 15 degrees or so. I will pay some attention to heel angle as I try to go upwind this season. Thank you for pointing that out.

David Young
Bay Cat, 30U #402
Traverse City / Suttons Bay, MI

[Jim Cosgrove]

I know the shoal draft boats need to be reefed earlier to maintain control because of the rudder.  I'll try sailing her even flatter upwind and see how that affects my ability to go up wind.  This thread has given me several things to consider.  (If all else fails, I'll take Mike's advice and convert to electric propulsion so I can silently spin the prop while pointing nearly into the wind!)  Thank you everyone.

Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

[Allen Ames]

Another beauty of the Nonsuch when racing in handicap classes is that you can ALWAYS prevent someone from passing you to windward, because you can pinch up higher than any sloop can and still maintain some speed!

[John Newell]

Especially with a 26 or 33 with the higher aspect ratio rigs and all Nonsuches can tack faster as long as one maintains momentum.

Sent from Windows Mail

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[Herb Huber]

Jim, my apologies for the tardy response, to many irons in the fire lately. My boat has the standard keel. In reviewing the other responses I take it that the fix might be to reef a shoal draft boat earlier. As well, from a recent sail with Ed Botterell bo...@ica.net (the original sail-maker for the Nonsuch boats) I learned the importance of lots of halyard to bring the draft forward to point higher. Further, that to much choker/outhaul can reduce pointing ability by drawing that draft back again.

Let's keep this discussion on performance going. The more often we are seen passing other boats it will force the purists to take note, and that will help maintain our resale value.

Cheers

Herb G. Huber

MISTOFFELEES 30C#91

Lake Huron Nonsuch Association, Southern Lake Huron Fleet

Sarnia, Ontario  

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 8:21:24 PM UTC-4, Jim in NVa wrote:

[Jim in NVa]

Herb,
Yup, I'm realizing that the shoal draft boats may need to sail much flatter.  That's an interesting bit about the choker.  I do tighten up the halyard, but will play with that some more as well as the choker.  Perhaps I should loosen the choker a bit first, tighten the halyard to move the draft forward, then retighten the choker.

My sail has a cringle for a cunningham and I've thought about adding a dedicated line and block.

I know our boats are cruising boats, but I try for speed most of the time.  If there is another boat out there, I'm racing.  (Whether the other boat knows it or not.)

Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

[ed ‹(•¿•)›]

Is that not the definition of a Sailboat Race?

 

"Two sailboats within sight of each other going in approximately the same direction".

 

Ed Collis

ORION VII

Toronto

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Jim in NVa

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 5:48 PM

Subject: Re: Nonsuch pointing abilities?

[Jim Cosgrove]

IF I'm overtaking the other boat, it's a race.  Otherwise, I'm just out for a casual day sail!

Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

[ed ‹(•¿•)›]

Just get close and toss a bolt onto his deck.

[Chris Carlisle]

Group,
I am thinking about installing a teak or mahogany cockpit coaming cover on my 30U. Anybody have any words of wisdom besides don't do it? I have heard that one already.

Chris Carlisle
"Pippin" #386
Rowayton, Ct

[Butch Garren]

Sounds like more work forever but it should look super nice. Have a few more beers before making that decision though. Good luck!

Butch Garren
NS22 #30 Whiskers
Solomons, MD

[Allen Perrins]

Hi

Only problem I see has to do with proper mainsheet stuff,
such as lead to elevated winch, turning block, etc.
Of course all canvas hardware and the like.

Al
Barbcat NS30C #170

[Chris]

Group,
We are thinking of taking a more extended cruise up the New England coast. I look at both port and starboard cockpit lazarettes that are enormous and seemingly bottomless as a place to put items yet to be defined (bedding, clothing, supplies, etc) Anybody have some nifty ideas as to how to maximize that space? And more importantly how to easily retrieve it once they go into that great abyss? Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

Chris Carlisle
Pippin 30U. #386
Rowayton, CT 06853

[Bill Baxter]

Hi Chris,

FWIW, we store cleaning supplies, bulk bottled water, extra life jackets and even an emergency-use portable toilet (wait, I did not say that last!) in the 'great abyss', and cover items on the lower level with extra pieces of the enclosure, stored in purpose-built sleeves to keep them rolled up (screening to one side, plastic to the other, with labels on outside of the lazarettes to remind us which is which). The smaller articles that lie low in the locker are kept inside plastic milk crates with harness lines leading back to the underside of the locker seats so the crates can be retrieved without undue effort.

I should mention the need to remember to tie up the seats when locker diving and not rely on the locker springs to stay locked -- my elbow invariably trips the 'locked' spring and the results can be painful.

The challenge of course is to maximize the storage, simplify retrieval while permitting complete removal in a hurry should there be a need to visit the engine or the battery bank located aft of the pedestal. Oh, and not cram the space so full that gear shifts aft and interferes with the rudder quadrant or air flow is seriously impeded.

Bill Baxter
Persistence NS30 #507
Penetang, ON

-----Original Message-----
From: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com [mailto:INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris

[Paul Robson]

I found that you can get up to five milk cartons in each side in the pit and there is some room behind for long things.

Paul Robson

    

> Subject: Storage
> From: ccarl...@gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 19:15:12 -0400
> To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

[Chris]

Thank you for your responses and good ideas. Milk crates seem to be the storage practice of preference. The tip about securing the seat will save me from painful experiences. I have yet to see any boat, no matter the model, to make good use of all that space. Might be an interesting niche market for an inventive boat entrepreneur.

Chris Carlisle
Pippin #386 30U
Rowayton, CT 06853