Rudder very stiff to turn

[chasti...@gmail.com]

Anyone ever experienced anything like this??

Put boat in water for season at boatyard.  Motored/sailed to mooring - all normal with steering to include autopilot engage/disengage.  Secured boat on mooring and frictioned wheel.  Returned to boat a week later, took friction off and wheel extremely stiff to move in either direction - but will travel full length each way.  Tightened and loosened friction multiple times, inspected cables - all on pulleys with appropriate tension.  Visual inspection of rudder in water to look for entanglements or signs of damage or bent shaft.  None noted. Engaged and disengaged auto pilot - working properly.  Stumped…

Any ideas or personal experiences greatly appreciated

Thanks,

Cooper Hastings

NS30C “Bearcat”

[Bob Gehrman]

Hi Cooper -

There are 2 spots to grease the wheel shaft bearings on the Edson wheel, under the compass. I had a similar feeling this Spring and it was solved by lubing them. You'll need a small pointy injector tip to get the grease into the tiny holes, and rotate the wheel while injecting to get all the bearings covered.

Good luck,

Bob Gehrman

NS30U #396 "Quickbeam"

Baltimore, Maryland

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/bf8651a1-2d4a-4835-b836-e8a34c7eba1en%40googlegroups.com.

[chasti...@gmail.com]

Thanks Bob!  Did your steering go from “totally free” to bound up after just one week sitting??  That’s my issue and my concern.  Is it possible that the friction mechanism could get out of place and cause the binding? I also attempted to move with the emerg tiller - it was extremely difficult - but I have no prior experience with the tiller to compare.

Thanks!

Cooper

[Bob Gehrman]

Hi Cooper -

I started this season with no issues, and then maybe after 4 outings I noticed a stiffness that I hadn’t noticed before. I had packed the rudder grease cup in the Fall, so I couldn’t imagine that was the issue. I had also oiled the cabling down below, and rechecked it to make sure nothing had happened since then. Last year I took the pedestal apart but I didn’t have a small enough tip to effectively get the grease into those holes. I did what I could at that time but I definitely didn’t get it into the holes like I did this Spring. Be careful not to overdo it either or the grease can end up on your brake. While you’re there you should grease the throttle and shifter joints, also small holes. I think those ones have screws covering them.

- Bob 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/17dd8841-b47b-48c9-9d06-88a504a7788cn%40googlegroups.com.

[Mariner's Cat V 26C Brentwood Bay BC]

If you have a wheel pilot type autopilot check to see if it is not binding even when disengaged. Loosen the nut holding the wheel, sometimes that will cause the auto pilot wheel assembly to bind.

Try the emergency tiller.

[chasti...@gmail.com]

Certain it is not the autopilot.  Tried the emerg tiller - same resistance as in wheel.  Boat sat thru a good blow, and I thought maybe during one or more if it’s violent “bobs” the rudder might have made contact with the ocean floor and bent the shaft, but it sits in 10 feet of water at mean low tide…

[Mariner's Cat V 26C Brentwood Bay BC]

I had my steering apart years ago and can not recall if you can loosen the cable enough to take it off the quadrant enabling you to see if it is the wheel mechanism or the rudder. Is it making a noise at all?   Putting a screwdriver  end to the shaft and the handle to your ear while someone turns the wheel, you may hear the sound of friction.  Doing the same to the binnacle housing would be another idea as that is where the other friction  bearings rest.

The fact this happened suddenly and to such an extend makes me think it might not be grease or lubrication.  Is the friction is equal throughout the rotation?

[chasti...@gmail.com]

Physically detached the autohelm from the steering - piston on autohelm moves freely and rudder still binding.  Tomorrow I will loosen both cables at the hub where they attach to the rudder shaft and move the rudder with the emerg tiller.  If that is OK, I guess all that is left is the steering pedestal... 

[Tim in STL]

Cooper,

I was always taught that when things go wrong, look at the last thing that was done.   You said ". . . Secured boat on mooring and frictioned wheel.  Returned to boat a week later, took friction off and wheel extremely stiff to move . . . . "  The last thing that was done before the steering was stiff was that you tightened the wheel friction.  My bet is that the wheel friction is stuck, check that before you dig much deeper.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[chasti...@gmail.com]

Exactly, Tim!  Have loosened and tightened the friction knob numerous times (first thing I tried).  When tightened, the rudder does not move at all and when loosened the rudder moves - with the binding mentioned.  The friction knob spins freely at this point. I am not sure of the exact make up of the brake or friction device (I cannot find a diagram of it and have not disassembled it at this point) so I cannot make a judgement as to if it could be getting crossed up in there and causing the binding.  

I have not gotten down below and had someone turn the wheel - I might be able to tell where the binding originates by comparing the tensions on the cables.

All ideas are helpful!!

Thanks

[Tim in STL]

This may help:  https://edsonmarine.com/content/EB%20355-96%20689%20Brake%20Installation%20%26%20Maint%20Instructions.PDF

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[chasti...@gmail.com]

Thanks, Tim!

Took it apart - brake functioning normally, chain on gear, cables in good condition and on all pulleys.  Put emerg tiller on and could only move with my feet…

I think next move is a haul out and inspection…

[ron buonomo]

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 19, 2021, at 09:14, chasti...@gmail.com <chasti...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Tim!

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/31686577-e3de-4b70-b57a-281a8b7e1244n%40googlegroups.com.

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Sounds like a lift is in order. You might want to climb into the stern to see if the quadrant is sitting on the top of the rudder post tub and gussets.  If it is it will cause drag but not limit travel. This could happen if the reataing nut at the top of the rudder post has turned. It is supposed to be locked into place with two set screws ( I think it is two, might be one).

Mark Powers

[Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene]

This sounds very strange. Could be a problem with the shaft but not likely because the shaft is quite sturdy.

If the quadrant was resting on the gussets you would hear a grinding rubbing noise.

There are two holes in the top nut each with a grub screw (also be careful there could be 2 grub screws in each hole). You may not see both holes at once, you have to turn the shaft to see the other hole.

My 2 bits. Ignore the following if you can see the top of the rudder when you look over the transom. 

On this list in the past someone also had the same problem. Your boat was in a blow on a mooring. It can violently back up in this case and even with the rudder brake on it will swing to the max deflection.  It was caused by the rudder swinging hard on the stop bolted to a gusset breaking it enough to go over the stop and ending up on the back side. The rudder then was jammed against the hull at a large angle and could not go back straight because the stop bolt on the quadrant was on the wrong side of the gusset stop. 

Sorry I don't have a photo. This is hard to describe but would be easy to see if you climbed down and looked at the quadrant.

Tom

26C 28

Penetang

[Dennis Gilligan]

If you haven’t inadvertently tightened your rudder friction I’d bet the rudder shaft is clogged with 40 years of accumulated goop.

I had the same problem last year.

The cure was to haul the boat, drop the rudder, saturate the rudder shaft with brake cleaner and scotch brite.

The marina had a gizmo similar to an engine cylinder hone . Do the same to your rudder shaft. Once it’s clean coat the shaft with new grease and reattach the steering mechanism.

If you do it yourself be careful not to damage the rudder shaft as I believe it’s fiberglass and not metal.

Dennis Gilligan

On Jun 21, 2021, at 10:11 AM, Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene <tschoe...@gmail.com> wrote:

This sounds very strange. Could be a problem with the shaft but not likely because the shaft is quite sturdy.

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/MKAIngszqeY/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/5267448e-eef4-4ee9-9c95-50ed53d2de8bn%40googlegroups.com.

[theen...@comcast.net]

Coming in late on this subject but it might be that auto pilot was left in gear.  Worth a look-see.

 

Cheers,

 

Butch

 

 

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30, #196

Whiskers II,

Solomons, MD

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/BC47F6C3-BDA7-43D7-AFE8-311308B07EA3%40comcast.net.

[Bob Gehrman]

One last trouble shooting to eliminate the pedestal would be to loosen the cables and drop them off the pulleys. Then check the emergency tiller to see if there’s any major change. Otherwise,  Dennis’ solution is next for you.

Bob Gehrman

NS30U #396 “Quickbeam”

Baltimore, Maryland

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/0cb501d766b5%2483805b60%248a811220%24%40comcast.net.

[chasti...@gmail.com]

All Great Ideas!  Keep 'em coming!

Butch - I physically disconnected the autopilot from the system - no change

Although the steering has little play, I am feeling that play until the cable tightens and begins to move the rudder - then the resistance is felt

Bob - I have not loosened the cables - but that will be my next step - to completely rule out the pedestal

I have been down below and all "looks" normal, but all I have to go on in that regard are the drawings from the original manual

Dennis - the "40 years of gunk" makes perfect sense (since I have no idea when or if the assembly was every removed, cleaned and repacked) - but this was a sudden onset in that I drove the boat under power and sail from the storage facility to my mooring and all was perfectly normal.  Fast forward 1 weeks later, and after a vicious N'Easter  where my neighbors said the bow was leaping 5 feet out of the water, I board the boat and start to get ready to sail and the rudder is so tight I can hardly move it.  As I said, sudden onset...  

Depth at the mooring is 10 feet at Mean Low Tide and there was a super moon with corresponding  larger tidal swings during that storm.

And, for what it is worth - I once looked at a NS30 and the owner told me that it had a bent rudder shaft - and it had the same feel as mine does now..

Local boat yard with a good rep and shipwright level experience has said they could look at it first week in Jul.  No one else in the area was interested or had time...

I'll keep you all posted...

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

When I was working on the rudder on La Reina and the quadrant was resting on the top of the rudder tube there was not any grinding sound when I turned the wheel slowly. When the rudder shaft was bent following contact with a log there were not any signs of damage around the rudder tube. When she was hauled there were not any impact marks on the rudder but something did not look right. When we took the rudder out the bend in the shaft was obvious. From the tip of the rudder post to the top of the glass there was 2.5” to 3” of deflection.

Mark powers

[Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene]

Amazing. If I read this right the bend was from the top bearing of the rudder post down to the top of the glass tube at the quadrant where the drawing says the shaft is machined down to 1.5" diameter. On my boat this part of the shaft is relatively easy to get to and you could climb down and hold a straight edge on the shaft above the quadrant to see if it's bent.

Mark, on my boat the aft gusset is higher than the tube so the quadrant contacts the gusset first making a grinding sound. It seems every boat was built slightly different.

Mark , so how did you fix the bent shaft? Did you have a new one machined or straighten the old one?

Tom

26C 28

Penetanguishene

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

The bend was at the top of the fibreglass where the shaft is 2”. It could not be detected in the boat. A new shaft was manufactured.  The insurance company was good to deal with. I will send a photo when I get back home.

Mark Powers

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Above  are a few shots of the rudder on La Reina before the repairs. 

Mark Powers

[Tom Schoenhofer 26C#28 North Star Penetanguishene]

Mark. Thanks for the photos, they explain everything.

Proof that the glass rudder and hull that Hinterhoeller built are pretty tough.

Tom

26C 28

Penetang

[Peter Grabow]

Hi Cooper -

any progress? 

I have been following this thread and didn't want to chime in while others offered possible solutions... unfortunately, what you describe sounds exactly what I experienced after hitting some submerged pilings back in 2015.  After freeing the boat from the piling field, I could barely turn the helm... I was able to move it just enough to steer us back into the marina and to pick up the mooring ball we had just left.  We had no water intrusion, but the insurance company insisted I have the boat hauled out immediately, just to be safe.

As the boat was hauled, it was obvious the rudder shaft had been bent back and a bit to the side. 

Before being hauled, we couldn't really tell by looking down at it while onboard, and it wasn't obvious when I went into the water to take a look at the damage - though the damage to the prop was very obvious - a blade was missing and another blade was jammed in reverse position (a 3 blade feathering prop).

Though made of steel, the rudder shaft is hollow and I was advised that trying to straigthen the post would weaken the structure and eventually result in the rudder post cracking/failing. THough this may depend on how much bend may be in the rudder post.

A new rudder and shaft had to be fabricated.

Peter Grabow

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30 Ultra 430

Jersey City, NJ