Seeking advice on choosing between NS22' and NS26' and NS30'

[Eliot Daley]

I'm about to join the Nonsuch family, upon selling my Cape Dory 30' cutter which is too much for my wife and I to handle these days (we're mid-70s).  We cruise the Penobscot Bay and environs on the Maine coast.  We are typically out for 3-5 days and rarely cook aboard and never shower aboard, doing such stuff at a harborside inn or yacht club.  

The 22' is appealing for its cozy size and ease of heavy lifting, but I understand that in later models Hinterhoeller lowered the headroom from full-standing to something less.  Is that right?  If so, when did it happen?  I would want full standing headroom for sure.  I am also imagining that a four-stroke OB would be a nice quiet way to go under power (vs. the diesel), but I may be kidding myself.  I also entertain the notion that if I have a 22' boat I might plop it on a trailer at the end of the season and store it in our barn a few miles from the marina in Rockland rather than winter it in the marina sheds, but that's not a gotta-have.  I'm more likely to keep on letting the marina handle everything...

The 26U appeals for the additional space below as well as the double bed, pressurized hot water, larger head, more electric power for things like a macerating head, etc.

I find myself shying away from the 30' just because of the sheer mass/weight (e.g., many use power halyard winches, etc.) and not really needing that much boat.

We do take family members day-sailing quite often and need enough space in the cockpit and on deck for half a dozen kids and grandkids.  (They also take the boat on short cruises themselves, but they're happy to sleep a couple of people in the cockpit when necessary, and a full enclosure's not a big deal to rig.

This decision is not driven by price/cost.  I'm looking for a workable compromise that will keep my wife and me on the water for as many more years as possible.

Any advice?  Much appreciated!

Eliot

Eliot Daley

58 Dorann Avenue

Princeton, New Jersey 08540

609/273-3333

[Patrick Peters]

Eliot

 

We have Joy a NS 22 # 52 1987. She has full headroom, a cockpit freshwater shower and a stack pack. She has a  Yamaha 9.9 with full Morse cockpit controls, electric start and tilt. From the mooring launch to underway is less  than 10 minutes solo.

 

The cockpit is big enough for four adults. She sleeps two beautifully and sails like a big dingy.

 

Kinda Fun!

 

Pete

 

NS 22 Joy # 52

 

Coconut Grove

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[John iscaro]

Hi Eliot.  About 10 years ago I swapped my 22 for a 26.  The gentleman was pushing 80 and the 26 was too much to handle and I wanted to move up.  My 22 had an outboard which made things real simple and the 22 had plenty of room and 6'+ head room.  My 26 has 6'+ also and my dock buddy has a 30 ultra.  the 30 is a lot of boat for us aging folk, (i am 64+) You can sail a 30 and 26 single handed with ease.  Off a mooring would also be easy.  pulling in and out of dock on windy days alone could be a challenge.   I do it and have no problems if i get it right first time.  if you dont get it right and have to run around and push off other boats pulpits, can be difficult.  I don't recall any boats having less than 6' headroom.

I can still handle my folded sail alone, taking it off the boat for the season.  The 30 sail needs a crew lol !

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John Iscaro / Chief Engineer
Greenwich Country Club / Greenwich CT

Rear Commodore / Halloween Yacht Club / Stamford CT

SV Phunsuch / Nonsuch 26U / 200

http://www.hyc.net/

203-627-2864  Cell
203-286-1909  Fax

[Eliot Daley]

Hi, Pete…

I very much appreciate your quick and thoughtful response to my post.  Your description sounds exactly like what I have imagined and hoped a 22' might provide.  I'm encouraged that your late-model (#52) has full headroom (assuming you're not speaking as a tiny guy!)

I'm very inclined toward the 22', and your response certainly reinforces that inclination.  

Meanwhile, happy sailing!

Eliot

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[Eliot Daley]

Hi, John…

Thanks so much for your response.  You are in a perfect position to give me the perspective I've been seeking, since it's 22 vs. 26 that I'm really focused on.  So let me put a simple question to you: if for some reason you could no longer have your 26 and had to go back to a 22, what would you most regret about the return to the 22?  What would you miss, and how much difference would it make to you?

Eliot

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[Patrick Peters]

PM me when you get ready- We are about retire and  go cruising and need a bigger boat for the Bahamas and beyond!

 

ppe...@mkainc.com

[John iscaro]

I have gotten very comfortable with the 26.  The forward cabin for sleeping and storage is nice.  I have done lots of weekends on the hook and other harbors with wife and that extra room really helps with 2 people.  What I have looked at for a retirement boat is a motorsailor with conventional rig.  No large sail or wishbone.  Would be great for weekends when weather is not so good.  Had my eye on a Fisher 24.  Only problem is not too many around.  Don't get me wrong,  Nonsuch is a great boat.  Good luck in your final decision.

[Richard Darrow]

Hi Eliot,

 

When we purchased our 1989 30U ( shoal draft ) in 2001 we stepped up from a 1990 25’ Catalina ( wing keel ) with a 9.9 Honda outboard… we thought we had purchased the Queen Mary for a short time, albeit a very short time. We have acclimated very well to the beam ( mostly ) of the 30 and love the room we have for ourselves, guests and gear as well ( and we carry LOTS of “stuff” including folding bikes, Honda 2000 generator, tools, etc ). I believe the boat size is relative to your experience and ability as a sailor... we know Nonsuch owners who have sailed their 30’s well into their 80’s and we’re not spring chickens ourselves, we’ll be turning 70 this year. I can’t speak for the other size Nonsuch’s but our 30 is very comfortable and quite easy to handle, we can sleep two/three guests below and the cockpit would sleep two easily, a half dozen or more easily for seating while under sail, although it gets sticky when reefing or changing tack ( you need to be VERY cognizant of the mainsheet ). It does have a lot of windage with the cockpit canvas ( dodger & bimini, not to mention the full cockpit enclosure when it’s up, we don’t sail with the enclosure up ) and the sail area is much larger than a standard 30 sloop mainsail ( especially when it’s covered ). We have friends who had a 30’ Cape Dory and it’s a very good sailing vessel but tender and she lays down when the wind blows, which his wife didn’t enjoy at all ( I think most women aren’t crazy about heeling )… I’m not a fan of heeling and it’s not the best way to sail a Nonsuch… the flatter our Nonsuch sails the faster she goes since that’s the longest water line area, so reefing early is important and since it can be done from the cockpit reefing isn’t shunned. Admittedly when the seas kick up the boat is a lot to handle but we do our level best to watch the weather and avoid those situations that make sailing a chore. We cruised in the Canadian 1,000 Island Park system for a month last summer and virtually lived off our boat, only making it in to a marina overnight once a week to empty the holding tank, filling the water tanks and provisioning. We have a full stand up shower and we do use it as well as the galley, we have some very nice meals aboard and enjoy that aspect of cruising ( different strokes for different folks ). So, whether it’s day sailing or cruising we’re very pleased with our 30 Ultra and would recommend a Nonsuch 30 wholeheartedly. Don’t rule out the classic 30 either, it has the same hull design and sail plan along with a unique interior that makes it a very comfortable boat. Above all I think you will enjoy the INA and its members as well as your Nonsuch, whatever size you choose. An advanced welcome to the family and happy hunting.

 

Regards,

Dick (& Shirley) Darrow

"Cativa", NS30U #496

Sodus Bay, NY USA

 

 

 

From: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com [mailto:INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eliot Daley
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 9:35 AM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Seeking advice on choosing between NS22' and NS26' and NS30'

 

I'm about to join the Nonsuch family, upon selling my Cape Dory 30' cutter which is too much for my wife and I to handle these days (we're mid-70s).  We cruise the Penobscot Bay and environs on the Maine coast.  We are typically out for 3-5 days and rarely cook aboard and never shower aboard, doing such stuff at a harborside inn or yacht club.  

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[Allen Ames]

IMHO the 22 is a MUCH smaller boat than the 26.  It also had significantly less "form stabilty" (is that the right term?). It is far more tender since it has a narrow beam straight up from the boot-top. All of the other Nonsuches get beamier as they heel and, thus, are much stiffer.

More than two people are a stretch for the 22, even daysailing. The 26 is VERY comfortable for 4 and daysails more.

The 26 has virtually the same waterline length and beam as most 30s so it has about the same interior space an "liveability" as the Sabre 30.  But it is also far easier to sail: just one automatically balanced sail completely controlled in all aspects from the cockpit (including raising and reefing). And she's amazingly manueverable under power, both in forward and reverse.

Allen Ames

[Fred Rachwitz]

Eliot

I am 67 and sail a 30 U. I do not sail with just my wife nor alone and I sail from a mooring ball. I can't compare marina maneuvering, but assume the 26 or 22 would have to be easier. The mast on a Nonsuch really catches the wind from the side and swings the bow around quickly. The 30 mast being larger and taller must accentuate this. 

Sail raising is definitely more difficult with a 30, and if I sailed alone I might want a powered winch or handle. But if you have a second person who doesn't mind going forward and jumping the halyard at the mast it becomes a piece of cake. The cockpit crew just tails and keeps slack out and may assist a bit until the sail is maybe 7/8 raised. Nobody has to strain but the forward person does do more work. At 7/8 the forward person can come back and either crew just cranks the last bit with no problem. I always sail this way and have no need for an electric as long as I do. The hardest winching is definitely trimming in on a beam reach.  But if you aren't racing with a Nonsuch, just head up and luff, pull it in by hand, and fall off. Wastes a few seconds of getting to your refreshments, but that's all.

Some have also spoken of somehow putting a cam cleat (I believe) on the mast, with banding, allowing a single person to pull the halyard from the cockpit with allowing the sail to fall between pulls or while wrapping the winch for cranking at the end. I have not tried this as I always have crew, but it does sound interesting. Others may comment further and remind me of the details too. 

I have no reason or desire to influence you toward any model. That said, I do love the space of the 30 both above and below for sailing with two or more and especially for overnighting. I looked at a 26 before buying mine and they it would be fine, but not quite the room. I have a friend with a 22 which he loves and sails alone but I have not sailed on yet. 

They are all great boats; good luck in your decision. 

Fred

Fred Rachwitz

Concerto

Nonsuch 30 U 445

Harbor Springs, MI

Northern Lake Michigan

Sent from Fred & Linda's iPad

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[Fred Rachwitz]

I totally agree with Allen on comparing the 26 to other 30s, as long as they are not Nonsuch 30s. I have sailed extensively on a Sabre 30 and a Nonsuch 26 can easily match it's space. It's a great sloop, though. A Nonsuch 30 matches the space of most 35 foot sloops I believe. 

Fred

Fred Rachwitz

Concerto

Nonsuch 30 U 445

Harbor Springs, MI

Sent from Fred & Linda's iPad

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[Butch Garren]

I have NS 22 # 30 Whiskers in Maryland. This little gem has full headroom and everything else the brochure suggests.  Sail it by myself 50% of the time all year round.  This little gem is perfect for me.

 

If you would like to travel to Maryland, we’ll go sailing and you can find out for yourself.

 

Butch Garren

NS 22 #30

Whiskers

 

From: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com [mailto:INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eliot Daley
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 12:35 PM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Seeking advice on choosing between NS22' and NS26' and NS30'

 

I'm about to join the Nonsuch family, upon selling my Cape Dory 30' cutter which is too much for my wife and I to handle these days (we're mid-70s).  We cruise the Penobscot Bay and environs on the Maine coast.  We are typically out for 3-5 days and rarely cook aboard and never shower aboard, doing such stuff at a harborside inn or yacht club.  

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[Butch Garren]

There is no doubt that the 22 is smaller than the 26.  The size confirms that.  In fact it’s 3500 pounds smaller.  I have no experience with a 26 but they do look nice and roomy and comfortable.  I highly disagree that more than two people are a stretch for a 22.  I have three full size adults on my boat for day sails quite often and four sometimes.  Three is comfortable and four is doable for a day sail.   I would not cruise with four but love it when my bride and I can take another couple out for a sail.  Sure, sometimes someone might have to move a little so I can get a chore done.

 

Regarding the heeling, if she starts to heel more than desired, I simply put a reef in and all is well and very seldom does the boat lose speed.  Is the 26 more comfortable than the 22?  It sure as heck should be.  Although the thought of a 26 is very desirable my little 22 satisfies all my needs.  Once I step aboard my boat I am sailing within 10 – 15 minutes.   Of course one needs to consider marina cost differences and other cost differences because of size.

 

I would not recommend one over the other.  The prospective owner needs to review their boat needs and associated costs.  I highly suggest that he sail on both.  I can do the 22 bit for him.  Maybe someone will offer to take care of the 26 ride.

 

Butch Garren

NS 22 #30

Whiskers

Solomons, MD

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[Jim Cosgrove]

Hi Elliot,
I have never sailed in a 22, so I can't help you there. But if you do
consider a 26, you might consider a classic model as well as the
ultras. My 26C was set up so that, if the table was removed or made to
fold down, the entire forward cabin could become one huge berth that
spanned with full width of the cabin. You are not going to find such a
giant double berth (queen size) even in boats that are much, much
larger. I suspect the same could be done on a 30C.

Also, the cockpit on a 26C may be slightly larger than on a 26U. I know
that's true for the 30C vs. 30U. (It's just a few inches.)

I've moved from a 26C to a 30U. The sail on the 30 is much heavier to
carry. I did not think there would be as much of a difference as there
is. I do like the extra room on the 30 and I think it punches through
the chop on the Chesapeake a bit better because it is heavier. The 26
does feel a bit sportier when sailing, however.

Both are great boats. I'm sure the 22 is as well. Solomon's is home to
several 22s and you should take Butch up on his generous offer to go
sailing in one. Also, from the photos I've seen, you might also be able
to make the big berth in the 22 as well.

Another suggestion is to attend the Spring Rendezvous of the Chesapeake
Bay Nonsuch Association. It's being held in Baltimore the third weekend
in May. There will be 26s and 30s. I do not know if there will be any 22s.

Welcome to the Nonsuch family. You really cannot go wrong with any of
the boats.

Regards,
Jim Cosgrove

FATE 30U #343 1986
Galesville, MD

[Roger Mongeau]

I have a NS22 with full headroom and full enclosure. A wonderful boat.  My wife was not supposed to come sailing with me because she does NOT like heeling, but she likes sailing on a NS22.  According to her, the NS22 is more comfortable than other 20-40 ft sailboats. 

In strong winds, I needed practicing for marina manoeuvering.  Raising the sail is easy.

I have a 9.9 Volvo diesel which increases the weight to 5200.  Thus, a good trailer and an appropriate towing capacity would be needed.

 

To be out for more than 3 days, I would suggest a comparison of the respective capacity of the fresh water and holding tanks between the NS22 and the NS26.

 

Happy sailing !

 

Roger Mongeau, NS22 #27 (1986)

 

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[Eliot Daley]

You guys are all AMAZING!  If owning a Nonsuch is half as gratifying as being a newbie member of this gang of Nonsuch owners, I'm in for the treat of my sailing life.

Seriously, I am so very grateful for the instant and thoughtful and generous sharing of your experiences and perspectives.  Within 24 hours, there was such a wealth of input that it's going to take me a while to re-read and ponder it.  Preliminarily, I'm thinking that a 26 might might a good compromise between affording us some welcome accommodations below for those long days when we're fogged into a Maine harbor instead of out there sailing, while also being enough smaller than the big 30 to feel like we are still in charge of the craft and not the other way around.  But one thing seems clear: it's hard to go wrong with a Nonsuch.

I particularly appreciate the invitation some have extended to come sail with you, to get a firsthand feel for sailing a Nonsuch.  I did that with a 30U at Jim Eastland's place last summer, and it would definitely help to be aboard a 22 and a 26 before I make my final decision.  So I may be in touch about that, and I will probably come down to the Spring Rendezvous in Baltimore that Jim Cosgrove mentioned in his post.

Again, thanks to each of you.  I feel both informed and welcomed, for which I am most grateful.

See you soon, I hope.

Eliot

[Larry Jack]

I had some dealings with Jim Eastland a few years ago before I bought my boat from Dave Harris of ‘Harris and Ellis’ (Ontario). I found Jim very helpful and professional – you could not go wrong if he is your broker.

 

I am in my 70’s and have no problems with the 30. Do have to get some help with the sail in the spring and fall, though. Have never sailed a 22 but think you are on the right to consider the 26, if not a 30, as space below is a real plus.

 

They are great boats – you will not be disappointed!  Good luck.

 

Larry Jack

30U 261 ‘Felina’

Shediac, N.B.

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[Butch Garren]

Eliot,

 

If you come to the Spring Rendezvous, be advised that I am only two hours South if you wanted to coordinate a visit and go sailing.  Also look on YouTube for Nonsuch 22.  There are three very amateurish videos of Al Suydam’s # 43 NS 22 and my #30.  In the case of Al’s, both videos are with his boat reefed.  Mine is full sail but before I learned to get the sail up all the way.   I’ve thought about your question a lot since yesterday and I have asked myself “What would I do if I was looking for a Nonsuch with the knowledge I have now?”.  For me I would buy a NS 22 again but only because of the type of sailing I do.  I sail all year round and I do a lot of impromptu sailing and typically go for 3-4-5 hours at a time.  The boat is easy to get prepared to go sailing.  If I were to be doing a lot of short cruises, which I will this year, I might think a little differently and look at a NS 26 for the extra space.  If I were to consider long cruises, (I won’t because that’s what my friend’s boats are for) I would look closely at the NS 26 and 30.  There is a difference in expenses and that has to be taken into consideration between the sizes.  In my case, I concluded, because of my sailing habits, that I would sail the NS 26 no differently than my NS 22 and therefore does not justify the additional associated costs.   I suggest that you review very carefully the type of sailing you think you will be doing and look for the Nonsuch that will accommodate that need.   Things to ask yourself:  Am I going to cruise?, If so, short haul – long haul - both?,  Does the boat need to accommodate a certain amount of people the majority of the time? Note: this makes a difference if you are thinking cruising or day sailing.  What are the marina costs?, what are the annual maintenance costs? what are the major costs such as sail, engine and other biggies?.  Note these vary from boat to boat.  Also body size needs to be taken into consideration.  My 300 pound friend is not as comfortable on my NS 22 as my 200 pound friend is but might do well on a NS 26 or 30.

 

You have already come to one major correct, conclusion.  You want to by a Nonsuch.  Just figure which one will fit your needs.

 

I can tell you are already sold on the idea of a Nonsuch, so welcome to the family.

 

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 22 #30

Whiskers

Solomons, MD

[Ernie Abugov NS22 #56 S/V Moustaches]

Hi Eliot (and Butch) -

Butch's videos on YouTube helped to convince me to buy my N22 #56 MOUSTACHES !! (He may think that they are "amateurish" but they are full of joy and make this wonderful vessel look great.

I adore my boat and think that i do a lot of the same type of sailing as Butch. A few hours per day, mostly, alone or with 1 or 2 others. She sails gorgeousely and/or like dinghy (if you wish). The original 58 N22 have the same dimensions - same 6'+ headroom, huge cockpit and half with inboards and the other half with outboards. Mine's an outboard with a wonderful, dependable Honda 9.9. 

I'm a young 66 with a BAD back (2 surgeries...  ) and I can manage raising the sail (but i've done everything in my power to reduce any excess friction in the "system". If i had a 26, I'd use a Winchrite or an angled drill to raise the sail. I wouldn't trade my zippy forgiving boat that I can get out on the water with in minutes BUT.....      

If I knew that i was going to stay aboard for a few days AND wanting enough room to never feel cramped ... 

I'd buy the 26 in a heart beat. HUGE inside, goes like a rocket, stunningly built to go to war in. A serious living-aboard little ship. I'd install what it would take to raise the sail as EASILY as possible.

OR....   spend way less and have a ball with a sprightly but SOLID N22.

All the best - good luck,

Ernie A.    Toronto

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