Repower or Rebuild 13hp Westerbeke in a 26C

[Linda Blake]

Good afternoon all, after fixing my Westerbeke 13 for a few years on my 26C Nonsuch, the service manager of my marina has suggested that I repower or rebuild the engine.  While I am still researching everything I can find on replacing the engine, I was wondering if any of you had recently replaced your engine? Did you switch brands? I am getting some costs on Yanmar and Universal.  Over the two years that we have owned the boat, the marina has replaced a number of parts on the engine and still I have issues with smoking, overheating and ocassional oil coming out with the discharge. The alarm has been set off more than once. In discussing rebuilding or repowering with them, I could rebuild and then still not be guaranteed of  a good engine or repower and get that guaranty (hopefully). We came from an outboard and I am trying to learn diesel fast, but I may not have enough time if I ever want to sail again!  I'm even watching one blog where the diesel is replaced with an electric engine (found on this site).

Thanks for all helpful hints!

Linda Blake

Silent Way

26C #36

Cataumet, MA 

[Jorgen Moller]

Have a look at Nani and Yanmar. Nani should replace your Westerbeke without major modifications as far as I remember. It is based on then Kubota brand. I have replaced my 13 hp Westerbeke with electric propulsion, but it is a steep learning curve, and may not suit your sailing style.

Don't rebuild.

Good luck,

Jorgen Moller

PONDUS NS26 #33

Toronto

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[ernest...@gmail.com]

Hi Linda -

Jorgen is right - don't rebuild. Life is too short and it ain't worth stressing and spending and .....   ?????  If it was me, I would give serious consideration to going electric. Yes, the learning curve is steep but I think that things keep improving and, quite possibly, the electric setup may cost you many less dollars than a diesel engine. Once in operation, the system is silent, simple, surgically CLEAN and the fuel is VERY cheap. No winterisation, darn near no maintenance. Just turn the key and ...wheeeee ..... for around 4 or 5 hours (or maybe even more).

It's your boat, your fun machine and (unless you drive a Shelby Cobra or fly a Carbon Cub) a new power plant will give you JOY and a lot of peace of mind..... and that is worth mucho in today's world.

I have never heard of anyone who who was not happy with their Yanmar engine. Nanni and Beta do make excellent powerplants and, in fact, they are both based on trusty Japanese Kubota workhorses. And furthermore, your present engine is a 13 HP. Many owners consider this engine to be underpowered for the N26 and wish that they had the Westerbeke 21. All the more reason not to rebuild.

Good luck with this.

(BTW - Jorgen (and Captain Mike of BIANKA fame) know an awful lot about electric propulsion. I'd be picking their brains.)

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Rob Powers]

Hi Linda,

We replaced our westerbeke 21with a Beta 20, a marinated Kubota. I thought Beta had done a better job of marinating than the others and are not at all proprietary (predatory) about parts. We have had ours for 5 + years and really enjoy it.You are in the US and Stanley at the Beta dealer there has sold a Beta to another Nonsuch 26.

My brother Mark (LaReina) replaced his 13 with the Beta 20 about 2 years later. He may comment as well.

Some people like the Beta 18 a 2 cylinder.

Good luck 

Rob Powers Respite 26C # 50

[David Biltcliffe]

Good morning

I was faced with the same choice three years ago with the original raw
water cooled 23 hp Volvo in my 30. I ended up re powering with a Beta
30 since Beta can build what they refer to as the 'feet' to fit the
existing engine bed which makes the process much easier and somewhat
less expensive.

I have been very satisfied with the engine performance and support from Beta.

David

Spray 1981 30 C #93
Westport Point and SOuth Dartmouth Ma.

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South Dartmouth and Westport Point, MA.

[Joe Valinoti]

Linda:  I’d be a little leery of a mechanic that keeps replacing parts and you still have the same symptoms and problems.  Since we have a local Beta dealer they are quite popular here and used by a lot of the yards as replacements.  I’ve never heard anything but good about them.

 

Joe Valinoti   (retired mechanic)
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Thor Powell Mariner's Cat V - 26C - North Channel]

A 20 hp give or take 2 hp is the better choice if you do more than day sail IMHO. 

The in and out cost is more or less the same if you re power vs rebuild and the mounting dimensions are close.  I'd not go the rebuild route, the cost saving is not worth the risk, unless you rebuild it yourself.  

As for options.  Westerbeke is a marinerized Mitsubishi and they are good engines, Universal is a Kuboto block  as is Beta.  If it was me, Beta would be the choice, easier to service, better parts availability. 

Thor

On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 11:40:03 AM UTC-7, Linda Blake wrote:

[Tom Schoenhofer]

Hi Linda

Yes the 13 is not powerful enough for the 26. I have one and it really struggles into a strong headwind. I am lucky that where I sail there are no currents and the marina is protected from high winds. You may be better off in your area with a more powerful motor.

Having said that - is it Diesel or engine oil in your discharge? Engine temp alarm or oil pressure alarm? Before you throw your baby out with the bathwater, what propeller do you have?  A previous owner may have put a too large prop on your boat to help with the lack of power problems caused by your W13. This would cause it to smoke and overheat if you have to open the throttle to work against a wind or current. It is because your engine/prop combo is not allowed to reach the set rpm asked for by the throttle and the governor is dumping the maximum amount of fuel into the engine. That makes it smoke, overheat and in extreme cases you have diesel oil in your discharge.

But I'm sure your mechanic would have considered this before he started replacing parts and recommending a rebuild ;)

If you repower, sell your (possibly perfect condition) W13 to offset the cost.

Tom

26C #28 North Star

Penetang

[Bob Ulwick]

Hi, I repowered 2 years ago, I was interested in Beta and Yanmar, the cost was about the same, Beta a little more expensive.  I was swayed toward the Yanmar mostly because of the service/warrantee issues, appearently the only authorized warrantee service person in Massachusetts is located in Brockton, ONLY!!  Imagine trying to get help.  Yanmar is everywhere.   I had to weigh the additional costs associated with the new engine; motor mounts, guages, new shaft, new prop, and other stuff I can't remember.  Add another $10,000 to the cost of the motor.  I ended up rebuilding.  Caution, westerbeke parts were way more expensive than the rebuild estimaters expected. Bob U, Nonsuch 30, Wharf Rat, Scituate, MA

On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:40:03 PM UTC-4, Linda Blake wrote:

[Brian Monrad]

We went electric with out Nonsuch 26 Ultra Cattitude in 2016 and still have the old Westerbeke 18 HP Marine Diesel Engine in good working condition sitting in storage. Complete system from key and instrument panel through to muffler and exhaust hose including: fuel system, engine, Hearth transmission, alternator, seawater filter, spare parts, manual, etc.
See video at https://youtu.be/MYzqXd3qV6k

This could provide the extra horsepower you need with a used engine from a Nonsuch 26.

On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:40:03 PM UTC-4, Linda Blake wrote:

[Linda Blake]

Good evening.  Thank you ALL so much for the great the comments and advice!!  I really appreciate it.   I am researching engine prices with the marina, new diesel and possible electric.

Brian Morad, I am very interested in your 18hp.  Looks a helluva lot nicer than mine!  I'm trying to do a little more research on motors and the dimensions of the engine space but won't get to that until probably Monday. I'm assuming that the space on the U is the same as the C, but I haven't checked yet.

Thanks again to all of you for moving me along with this project!

Linda

Silent Way

26C #36

Cataumet, MA 

On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:40:03 PM UTC-4, Linda Blake wrote:

[Mark Powers]

Linda.

My brother warned you that I might reply. Here it is, probably more then you wanted. I have laid out my thought processes to give you matters to think about. The factors that affect you and the weight that you give them might well lead to different conclusions.

 

La Reina came to me with her original Westerbeke 13hp 2 cylinder still installed along with a 2 blade feathering MaxProp and PYI Dripless prop shaft seal. With a clean bottom, clean prop and flat water the engine would reach its design maximum of 3000 rpm and the boat would do about 6 knots. I would generally run the engine at 2400 to 2600 rpm (roughly 5-5.5 knots). Above 2400 she was getting noisy and rough. After pounding for 30 miles against wind and waves where at times we were down to 3.5 knots even at 2900 rpm I decided it was time to repower. I also figured that if I kept La Reina for 10 years I would definitely need to repower so I might as well do it now and enjoy the new engine rather then install it only to sell the boat to some one else to use.  The current norm for engine power is about 4 hp per ton. It used to be 2hpo per ton. Loaded for cruising La Reina comes in at about 10,000 pounds. 18 to 21 hp seemed about the correct size given the new norm.

 

I wanted more power, less noise and a smoother engine. I strongly considered going electric however here in the Pacific Northwest it did not offer what I felt I needed. We often have little or no wind. Given the currents, the passage gates that have to be taken at or near slack, the complications of the Fraser River outflow and the distances to prime cruising grounds I felt I needed to be able to reliably run at 5.5 knots for between 20 and thirty miles while fighting current, waves and head winds (sometimes the demands of life don't let you wait for the wind to change direction). An electric system with a big lithium battery pack would cost much more than a diesel. A lead battery pack big enough to provide the range I was looking for would add too much weight and still not give the range. Electric would probably meet 80- to 90 percent of my needs but it was going to be too much money to reach that level

 

So the search for the diesel engine was on.  Generally more cylinders are smoother than less. Any four cylinder engine would be too big so I looked at 3 cylinder models. The good news is that the 13hp Westerbeke came with a 1" prop shaft, which is what the three cylinder engines in the power range I was looking at would require. I ruled out Volvo engines because the initial cost is high, the parts are extremely expensive, they have left hand or counter clockwise rotation which would require a new prop. Because the MaxProp has adjustable pitch and the shaft size for the new engine was going to be 1” I could use the existing prop if the engine ran clockwise.  Based on my research some of the Volvo engines have had reliability problems, which I did not want. Nanni and Sole are not popular in this area and again tend to be more money then the Beta so I ruled them out.

 

The smallest Westerbeke 3 cylinder currently for sale is the 30C rated at 25hp. This engine is over 29 inches long, which is too long to fit into the engine compartment with the PYI dripless shaft seal. One advantage Westerbekes have is that they have self bleeding fuel systems. I don’t believe the Universals have that. Westerbeke owns the Universal brand and offers a 20hp 3 cylinder based on the Kubota small diesel engine. As others have pointed out it is the same engine as Beta uses for its 2ohp engine. Both companies modify the Kubota engines for use in boats. I liked the Beta conversion better than the Universal for a number of reasons. All of the service points on the Beta are at the front of the engine so access is easy. They install a handy oil drain pump, which makes oil changes a breeze. They will make custom engine feet (although I did not take advantage of this feature) and Beta happily gives you the Kubota part numbers. Westerbeke/Universal is proprietary and tries to force you to buy parts from them at exorbitant prices. Furthermore, I could get the Beta at a slightly lower cost, my brother already had experience installing the Beta in his 26 Nonsuch and the fellow who installed his engine was happy to work with me for the install of a Beta in La Reina. I also considered the Yanmar 3YM 20 which is rated at 21hp however the service points were not as easily accessible, it was slightly heavier, it was physically bigger (about 2 inches longer and 1" wider), it was more money, Yanmar parts are very expensive and they have a history of problems with the exhaust mixing elbow.

 

Here is a chart I prepared when I was comparing engines.

				Engine Specs
		Beta 20			Westerbeke 13		Universal M3-20B		Yanmar 3ym20
Weight		228.8 lbs/ 104 k			298 lbs		241 lbs – 266 lbs		266?
Displacement		719 cc			566 cc		718 cc		854 cc
HP		20 at 3600			13.5 at 3000		20 at 3600		21 @ 3600
Torque		45 ft lbs at 2600			21 ft lbs at 2600		33 ft lbs at 2500		38@2600
RPM		3600			3000		3600		3600
Rotation		clockwise			rt h/ clockwise		rt hand		rt hand
Dimensions
Length		655mm/25.79"			26.96"/684.78mm		26.4"/ 670.6mm		693.5mm/27.3"
Width		442/17.4			17.75/450.85		18.1/ 477.5		463/18.2
Height		587/23.11			22.05/560.1		20.1/510.6		600.3/23.6
Feet width		370/14.56			15/381				370/14.6

 

The dimensions given are both metric and imperial. You can see that the Beta is actually smaller and lighter then the Westerbeke 13. I know that Thor Powell suggests the 26 Nonsuch could use more weight in the stern but I always think lighter is better for sail boats and the lighter engine lets me carry more beer and wine while cruising.

 

For all of those reasons the Beta was the best choice for me. As I said earlier the factors effecting your decision may be different and lead you to a different choice.

 

Rebuilding

 

I did not really consider rebuilding as an option since it would not solve the problems of noise, vibration and lack of power that I was hoping to overcome with the engine change. I am not a mechanic and did not feel I had the skill set to do the work myself so I would be paying for labour. A "full rebuild" means different things and can vary greatly in price depending on what you do. One form of rebuild is to go through the engine and replace accessories such as water and fuel pumps alternator and hoses. This leaves you with an engine that still has a large number old parts which may or may not last. Another option is a full tear down and replacement of most parts (pistons, rings, bearings) and peripheries such as water pumps and alternators. This would likely cost more then a new engine once you add in the labour costs. A "full rebuild" can fall anywhere between those two extremes. A rebuild is cheaper to reinstall then a new engine unless you are buying a new engine that matches the old. This is because extra time is need to plan and change any of the layout and as you know time is money.  In addition some of the existing parts such as the prop and exhaust system may be reusable so you don't have to buy as many new parts.  The Westerbeke 13 is fresh water cooled so the engine block is not generally exposed to salt water and therefore likely to be in good condition, which is an advantage in a rebuild as compared to raw water-cooled engines. When I went to remove the W13 from La Reina I found that I had to take off the exhaust riser. It did not want to cooperate.  Being a ham fisted mechanic I managed to break the heads off of a couple of bolts and still had to cut the riser pipe. If I had been doing a rebuild I would have had to find a way to get the riser apart. That became the problem of the fellow that bought the W13 from me. By the way the old engine was easy to sell on Craig's list.

 

Installation

 

When the old engine was out I clean up the engine compartment and installed new sound deadening insulation panels. I should have also used Silent Running. It is expensive but I think it has made the engine quieter on my brother's boat. We beefed up the engine bed/stringers (not absolutely necessary) and we changed everything from the water intake to the exhaust outlet. We increased the water intake line to 1" and the exhaust system to 2". The routing of the exhaust worked out well and I was able to use the existing platform for the new water lift muffler, although I did have to increase the size of the mounting base easily done with a piece of plywood. 

 

The PYI dripless shaft seal is longer than the standard stuffing box. The Beta engine comes with a soft coupler that fits between the transmission and prop shaft couplers. This takes up space. I ordered the shortest transmission that Beta sells with the 20. The dealer took it upon himself to order a different transmission because the cost was the same and he thought the substitute was a better transmission. The transmission he ordered was an inch longer than the one I ordered. I did not notice until we went to hook up the prop shaft. It was almost impossible to make everything fit. We could not pull the prop shaft back far enough against the PYI seal to fit the bolts from the soft coupler in. The engine was as far forward as we could comfortably fit it in the engine compartment. We were looking at getting shorter coupling bolts, not using the soft coupler or getting the correct transmission until my brother put in a Herculean effort and pulled the shaft back the final 1/8" need to get everything together (thank you Rob). Length does matter. 

 

Using the same pitch (22 degrees or 10.7 inches) on the prop as I had for the for the Westerbeke 13 I can make 3300 rpm, slightly less that the engine max rating of 3600. If I change the pitch down to 20 degrees or 9.6 inches I can pull 3600 rpm however I then have to run the engine faster to get the same boat speed as before.  Hull speed on the 26 is about 6.5 knots. At 6 knots and above under power the stern is squatting down a considerable distance. It takes a lot of power and fuel to get from 6 to 6.5 knots. The net result is that with this engine and a 14 inches two blade prop, 10 inches of pitch is probably the sweet spot and from a practical stand point the extra power has not given much in the way of extra speed. It is smoother and quieter than the W13.

 

I did not keep exact numbers but the engine and install came to about $15,000.00. I did a lot of the work myself and the shipwright gave me a break on his time and parts. We could have saved money by not changing the intake and exhaust. The diesel fuel lines did need replacing.

Will try to attach a couple of pictures showing the before and after.

 

Hope this helps in your deliberations. Sorry to be so long winded.

Good luck.

 

Mark Powers

La Reina 26C

Vancouver, B.C.

[Katmando]

Thanks Mark for this record of investigation and conclusions..

This mail is a keeper.

Brian

Katmando NS30u 262

Freshwater boat with all the amenities.

Whitby Ontario

Sent from my Longship

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[Linda Blake]

Mark, thank you so much for the tutorial!  That was amazing and SO helpful!  As Brian mentioned this is a keeper. I appreciate you taking the time to spell it all out.  

On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:40:03 PM UTC-4, Linda Blake wrote:

[Linda Blake]

Hello to all, I went ahead and had a Yanmar (locally popular) 20 installed in my 26C.  The installation was completed last week.  The marina ran it the other day and did 5.7 knots at 3000; and opened it up to 3600 for a short  time, and thought it would keep going.  I replaced a Westerbeke 13 and I have a bronze 2 blade folding - 14" diameter prop.   I calculate a hull speed of 6.6. For those of you who have upgraded your engine, did you need to change out the prop? I see from the 26C manual that the 13 engine takes a 2 blade folder 14x10x1 right hand, and the 21 takes a 15x12x1 right hand.  Thank you!

Linda Blake 

Silent Way

26C #36

Cataumet, MA 

On Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 2:40:03 PM UTC-4, Linda Blake wrote:

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Enjoy the Yanmar, Linda. They make wonderful engines.

Would you mind me asking the proverbial question - Minus a different prop (???), what did the entire business cost you ??

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Mark Powers]

Linda,
Any photos of the installation you want to share with the group?

[Charlie Wurts]

Congratulations and well done! Your prop question is a good one, although I don’t have an answer. I would think more speed would certainly be in order at those rpms.

[Thor Powell Mariner's Cat V - 26C - North Channel]

The prop size will be a function of the transmission gear ratio, engine horsepower and boat weight / displacement.  I have a Westerbeke 21 with a 2:1 gear ration on my 26 and a 2 blade Gori 15 x 12 matches it very well.  I have used a 3 blade 14 x 11 fixed prop and that worked well but oddly enough not as much oomph in strong winds as the Gori.  

5.7 knots @ 80 of rated rpm is about right....any faster boat speed  fuel consumption rises and you should run at 80%.  

[Linda Blake]

Hi Ernie, thanks, I hope to enjoy the boat alot next year.  The estimate listed the engine at $10,600 including shipping and labor at $5,000 for a total of $15,600.  This is not the least expensive marina around by any means. I haven't received the final bill since they are not quite done, but I would question anything over that $5,000.  They had alot of delays on their end. 

Linda 

[Linda Blake]

Hi Mark, unfortunately I don't.  I have a picture of it in the box. It is now installed so when I see it next I will get a picture.

On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 8:30:26 PM UTC-5, Mark Powers wrote:

Linda,
Any photos of the installation you want to share with the group?

[Linda Blake]

Thanks Thor, I appreciate this information.  

[Charlie Wurts]

Just noodling the repower idea at the moment, prompted by the prospect of replacing most of the cooling system on our boat.  Without getting into details I have discovered a lot of deferred maintenance which is now haunting me.  I have a W21 in a Nonsuch 26 #149 in Nova Scotia.  I should not have replied to this thread last year maybe?  Anyway here I am again thinking about it myself and reviewing all the great info here.  So, Linda, is the Yanmar proving to be all that you had hoped?  Can you get to all the maintenance items without making like a pretzel?  And Mark, great write up BTW, how are you doing with your Beta?  My situation is torturing me because the W21 only has 1400 hours on it, but its history makes me suspect about putting a few thousand into it.  I am wondering if a repower may be more comforting.

Charlie

[Linda Blake]

Hi Charlie, I'm getting a slow start on the season.  I've been out 3 times with the new engine and love it!   The engine is situated a little differently in the compartment than the 13 hp I had and it looks like there is room to spare.  I haven't checked out all the maintenance items but will do that next time I'm there.  Two pushes on the button and it starts right up! After three years of dreading starting the engine (and it gave me reason to) it is so pleasurable to just start it without a headache!!  It runs smooth and quiet. I added soundproofing and I can't believe how quiet it is. Yanmar is popular in this area and I think every marina knows them here.  As an aside I donated the 13 hp engine to a friend who teaches diesel classes.  At the Women's Sailing Association conference in Marblehead in June, she had parts of my engine in her class to demonstrate what not to do when maintaining your engine. She can't imagine how it even ran at all.  She assured me I did the right thing to repower. I have piece of mind about starting the engine and coming back to the mooring, and even though it's a sailboat, that means a lot to me.  I tortured myself too - good luck. 

[Charlie Wurts]

Thank you Mark and Linda for your reply!

Great advice on being thorough and patient, in addition to getting an oil analysis. I do agree that the Westerbeke should not be discounted, despite its servicing challenges. I will continue to size and weigh the different options. I have no doubt that "new" would indeed provide opportunities for improved serviceability and better performance. I am in the early stages of educating myself and sizing the different options and very much appreciate this thread and specifically your input. Thank you!

Charlie

[Mark Turner]

Hi Charlie,

I would be reluctant to offer an opinion on what you should do, but would like to share our experience with Nessie.  I also had some deferred engine maintenance and needed a few thousand in repairs related to a coolant leak (purchased in 2017 with 1150 hours).  I got the engine inspected and tested (oil & compression) by a Westerbeke master dealer.  The repairs were limited to the coolant system so I went with the repairs.  Since that time I've put on about 225 hours with no troubles and she starts better now than when I first got her.  I am very happy with the choice now but very much felt overwhelmed at the time.

Whatever you decide, enjoy!

Mark Turner

Nessie - 26C

Harrison Hot Springs, BC

[Richard Lane]

Mark, Swoose (1982 NS 26c) now takes ~ 1.5min glow plug to start, even this week returning from Genoa Bay after the rendezvous. This seems excessive to me, I installed a comfortable push button to avoid a sore finger pressing the key for so long. What do you think?

Dick Lane

Port Townsend.

Sent from my iPad

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[Joe Valinoti]

Dick:  You should only have to hold that glow plug button down for about 20 seconds with a cold Westerbeke engine.  Less when warm and zero when hot.  You may have a bad glow plug which can cause your symptoms.  There are various articles on this.

Joe Valinoti

S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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