Nonsuch sail for light air?

[Jim in NVa]

Has anyone had a new sail made to improve light air performance?  I assume it would be possible to add some more roach without interference with the topping lift, but maybe not.  I'd like to maximize the number of days I can actually sail in the summer when Chesapeake Bay winds tend to be light.  Any experience you can share would be appreciated.  (I'm ok with having a sail that would not be legal for Nonsuch racing as that's not in my future.)

Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

[ed ‹(•¿•)›]

I use the "Iron Drifter". 

Works great, and produces 6 knots of speed.

 

Ed Collis

ORION VII

Toronto

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[Thor Powell (Mariner's Cat V - N 26C)]

My sail maker told me that I had two cloth choices from Dimension Polyant, a heavier cloth that would last longer 10 - 12 years or a lighter cloth that would last 8, the lighter cloth would be better in light air.   I'll contact Harrstick and get the weights, I think they were 7 and 9 but not sure.  Steve H has retired but they are still there as a Quantum loft.

A bit more roach seems to help and I have more but not to the extent that it contacts the topping lift.

[Joe Valinoti]

The sail I had made for my 30 had three problems, the cloth was too heavy, too much roach and full battens. The heavy cloth and the full battens gave it a bad shape.  The added roach interferes with the topping lift.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

 

From: Jim in NVa

Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2015 1:15 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Nonsuch sail for light air?

 

[Jim Cosgrove]

Thanks Thor, I will be interested to hear what they say about the cloth weights. 

Jim Cosgrove

FATE 30U #343

Galesville, MD

Sent from my iPad

[Jim Cosgrove]

Joe, 

Good to know. My current sail has one full batten (top) and the other three are long, but not full. The battens themselves are tapered. For several reasons I know I would not want all full ones. But I am curious to learn more about cloth and cloth weight options. 

Thanks,

Jim Cosgrove

FATE 30U #343

Galesville, MD

Sent from my iPad

[Brian Berdan]

Just ordering a new sail for my 260.  Was thinking about two full battens and a fuller roach for better light air work in the fickle wind around Seattle.  Regarding interfering with the topping lift, how much of a problem is it? My topping lift is loose with the sail up, so it seems it wouldn't prevent the sail from switching sides, or just pushing it out of the way.  

And to keep the sail size the same with the added roach, I wanted to basically remove a foot from the bottom, mostly to improve visibility. My boat came with a 1 foot extension cable at the tack, which helped with visibility, but caused too much stress and pulled screws out of the track/mast.  I'm going to move the tack point a foot up to avoid this.

Brian & Susan Berdan

"Blue September"

1995 260 007

Bainbridge Island, Washington

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[wynd...@gmail.com]

Although the Wyliecat 30 sail is for a racing boat of half the weight,

it has a  "larger light air sail for less windy areas"  option.

Perhaps your sailmaker could consider the changes made for the "light air" model.

 

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3148

P:  45.00' / 13.72m     E:  24.00' / 7.32m    Nonsuch30

 

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3650

P:     40.00' / 12.19m    E:     20.67' / 6.30m   Wyliecat30

 

http://www.wyliecat.com/models/wylie_30.html

Actual SA (including roach & luff round):                       530 sq ft

Actual SA (w/ roach & Luff round) - light air model:    590 sq ft

You can also order a Wyliecat with either the standard sail or a larger light air sail for less windy areas.

 

 

===

From: 'Brian Berdan' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 1:53 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Re: Nonsuch sail for light air?

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[John Newell]

Check out the North Radial sail.  Our local North loft made a great radial cut sail for a 26 last year.  It suits our type of rig. They took over Hans Fough's sail business so have a good understanding of sails for free standing masts.

My 10 year old Botts sail is standing up to the test of time and performed well in a long distance race yesterday when winds were variable north to north west 20 knots with higher gusts.

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto

PS Botts is recovering from a stroke and is staying at the McCall  Centre for Continuing Care, 140 Sherway Dr. Etobicoke M9C 1A4 Ontario.  He can be reached on his cell phone.  I know he would welcome calls or a note from his many friends.  Although he is paralyzed on his right side, he has not lost his speech like my father. 

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Subject: Re: Nonsuch sail for light air?
From: cosg...@verizon.net
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 08:05:23 -0400
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

[Allen Perrins]

Hi

I have two top battens at full length with "batt-cars".

I do not recommend full length battens if you race.

When sailing down wind, performance dictates easing

the wishbone to 90 degrees and beyond. This causes

the battens to be forced to stop early putting a strain

on the batten , batt-car and sail track as the batten is

forced to assume a reverse bend at the track.

A second problem occurs in very light air when the boat

is tacked but the batten refuses to tack, turning the sail

"inside out". Very un-nerving, difficult to correct and VERY slow !

Al

Barbcat  NS 30C  #170

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Cosgrove
Sent: Sep 14, 2015 8:05 AM
To: "INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com"
Subject: Re: Nonsuch sail for light air?

[Thor Powell (Mariner's Cat V - N 26C)]

Per my sail maker.... "we ended up building your sail out of 8.5 oz and the lighter, racing Dacron could drop down to the 7.5 oz Dacron."  

It has 2 full battens and two smaller thinner battens ( maybe 1 inch wide )  The roach is a bit bigger, but not so much as to interfere with the topping lift.

This is a 26 ... and I love our sail :)    

I would be concerned about moving the tack or reef points too far out of spec as I think the mast is reinforced at these points....

Thor

 

On Saturday, September 12, 2015 at 1:15:07 PM UTC-4, Jim in NVa wrote:

[Brian Berdan]

Thanks Thor, good point.  I was considering moving my reef points up a little bit too, so now I'll have to do some more thinking on all that. 

Brian

[R D Young]

FWIW, Thor’s mention of the reinforcement of the mainsail track reef bearing points hit home for us today. We were out sailing in 20-25 knots of wind with a single reef. When we went to douse the sail at the end of the day, we discovered the bottom 2 screws in the mainsail track had pulled out of the mast, leaving the bottom 6” or so of the mainsail track at a 90 degree angle to the rest. Trying to figure out at which point in the sail this occurred and how to remedy the situation. Am fairly certain we have reefed and sailed in worse conditions than we experienced today, without mishap. Followed our usual reefing procedure. What happened this time? Ideas?

David Young
Bay Cat, 30U #402
Traverse City / Suttons Bay, MI

[Joel]

Dave,

When you put in the reef tack did you re-haul the halyard extra hard? That helps to relieve the strain on the track at the point immediately above the reef cringle.

 

Joel Watt

N30U 258, Virgin Gorda,

Kingston, On

 

 

From: R D Young

Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 7:38 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Nonsuch sail for light air?

 

[Joe Valinoti]

The question is, did you tension the halyard or the reef clew first??  If the clew is tensioned first, the stronger leverage on the halyard can pull them out.  I was always taught to tension the halyard and then the clew to prevent this very thing from happening.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

From: R D Young

Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 7:38 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Nonsuch sail for light air?

[R D Young]

Joel and Joe, I did re-tension the halyard before tensioning the outboard reef line. The only thing I can figure is that I over-tensioned the latter somehow. It seems odd though that I could have applied enough tension to pull those track screws out of the mast without damaging the sail itself?

[Joe Valinoti]

Well, I’ve pulled mine out for no reason that I can see except for being there for a long time.  BTW, I should have added that I have a Strong Track.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

 

From: R D Young

Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 9:07 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Nonsuch sail for light air?

 

Joel and Joe, I did re-tension the halyard before tensioning the outboard reef line. The only thing I can figure is that I over-tensioned the latter somehow. It seems odd though that I could have applied enough tension to pull those track screws out of the mast without damaging the sail itself?

 

On Sep 15, 2015, at 7:59 PM, Joel <joel...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

 

When you put in the reef tack did you re-haul the halyard extra hard? That helps to relieve the strain on the track at the point immediately above the reef cringle.

 

[R D Young]

One thing I did do today that I don’t always do was haul the topping lift up to make it easier to get the clew reef in good and tight. I wonder if that might have made it to easy to over-tension the clew reef line? It was a very nice late summer day here in NW Michigan but a bit of a cluster on the water. In addition to the mainsail track issue, we also sprang a leak in one of the old gray plumbing pipes under the galley sink. Oh well, still better than a day at the office!

[Thor Powell (Mariner's Cat V - N 26C)]

At what point do you tighten the choker?  I would think if it is the last tweak then it would be hard to over tighten it.  I find we can do  all the reef lines with out much need of a winch

On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-4, David Young wrote:

FWIW, Thor’s mention of the reinforcement of the mainsail track reef bearing points hit home for us today. We were out sailing in 20-25 knots of wind with a single reef. When we went to douse the sail at the end of the day, we discovered the bottom 2 screws in the mainsail track had pulled out of the mast, leaving the bottom 6” or so of the mainsail track at a 90 degree angle to the rest. Trying to figure out at which point in the sail this occurred and how to remedy the situation. Am fairly certain we have reefed and sailed in worse conditions than we experienced today, without mishap. Followed our usual reefing procedure. What happened this time? Ideas?

David Young
Bay Cat, 30U #402
Traverse City / Suttons Bay, MI

[Thor Powell (Mariner's Cat V - N 26C)]

Mariners Cat has had water leaking into to the bilge from some unknown source for a while.  Intermittent and we looked everywhere....tightened every bolt on the boat! Finally Debbie solved it.  The ice in the box had melted but there was no water.....

The hose clamps on the ice box were just loose enough to leak and was the ice melted it ran slowly into the bilge.......

[Thor Powell (Mariner's Cat V - N 26C)]

Our lower two battens are very thin and narrow..1.5 inches wide more like dingy battens

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[R D Young]

Thor, I’ve gone over the sequence so many times in my mind today that I am no longer sure what I did when but I would normally slack the choker before starting to reef and tension it after the reef was in and the sheet trimmed. I am reasonably sure that is what I did today. In retrospect, it does seem that, while the tack reef went in easily, the clew reef went in harder than normal. I wasn’t able to get as much of the clew reef line in by hand as usual. Also, after I had everything tightened up, had re-trimmed the sail and sailed upwind for a time, I had to trim the choker again because I had way too much sail against the leeward side of the wishbone. Who, knows? I’ll screw the track back in and with any luck be able to reef another hundred times or so before this happens again.

[Dave Fournier]

As an electrical contractor we install light poles regularly.  They are an aluminum  mast.  

Same as a Nonsuch mast 

plus an extra  load of light fixtures.

After 40 years not one has failed! They have endured hurricanes and Nor'easter's.  I would think the stress on the mast during winter storage is very minimal. Just my opinion. 

Dave Fournier

NS 26C #115 INUA

Toms River, NJ

Sent from my iPhone

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[Robert Horne]

I thought the original owners manual said all battens were the same length. Thus, for racing (or resale) the battens were the same and the PHRF was factored. A Nonsuch 26C has a 219. My  Nonsuch (sail made by Doyle (previous owner)) has two full battens at the top and regulation at the bottom two. The top two going full to the  mast causes a heavier load on the tracks at the mast according to previous discussions on this site. Regards, Bob Horne, 1989 N26C, #249, Pocasset, MA 

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From: "Thor Powell (Mariner's Cat V - N 26C)" <thor....@gmail.com>
To: "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 10:41:16 PM
Subject: Re: Nonsuch sail for light air?

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[STEVE BOSCO]

Using a 1/4 inch line wrapping it around the mast thru the tack of the sail when there is no load and snug the   sail tight to the track. This distributes load and keeps the sail tight to mast especially when choker is full on.

I also have a strong track system which has worked well.

Steve Bosco

NS 30 210

[R D Young]

Good idea. May try that when I get everything back together.

[Herb Huber]

I sometimes wish I had a light weight sail for the light air days, but you can't beat the endurance (20+ years so far) of my #10 weight sail, and not sure I'd want to go through the trouble of constantly changing out that brute. Besides, it still helped me earn first place in last years 42 NM Lower Huron Solo Challenge, both on PHRF and straight time.

During 10 years of periodic light air I have fought with the topping lift getting caught up on the leach, until this year. I have now added 1 foot of lashing to the clew. That brought the wishbone back accordingly & fortunately I had spare distance at the forward end, for when full choker is applied. The pennant from the choker had to be shortened two feet at the upper mast I-pad. I hope that helps.

Herb G. Huber

MISTOFFELEES 30C#91

Southern Lake Huron

Lake Huron Nonsuch Association

Sarnia/Point Edward, Ontario 

On Saturday, September 12, 2015 at 1:15:07 PM UTC-4, Jim in NVa wrote:

[mark fagelman, MD]

I believe there may be two contributing factors responsible for the sail track separating from the mast.

1)  The cringle for the tack reefing line is too close to the luff of the sail

2)  The cringle is too close to one of the sail slides

explanation:

1)  If the cringle is too close to the luff, the only pull is downward.  If you set it 6-7 inches aft of the luff, the pull is downward and forward, taking all the strain off the luff.

2)  If the cringle is close to a sail slide, then the pull of the clew is transmitted directly to the sail slide and sail track.  It should be set between sail slides, so any strain on this areas does not transfer to the sail track.

Mark Fagelman

N-33 PUFF

[R D Young]

Mark, Interesting points. The reef cringles on our sail are on dogbone type web straps which remove some friction from the reefing process but don't move the stress points aft at all. Our cringles are between sail slides Whatever, after reefing hundreds of times the last 18 seasons without mishap, this time, for some reason, it broke.